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Breyghun
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Posted - 2006.04.08 12:48:00 -
[1]
And to think I believed all of the real in game politics was over!
Announcements galore and BoB in every thread, what is happening in EvE's most populous corner?
What do you think is going on? Here is my view....
BoB have an interest and a desire in becoming the big entity that everyone wants to talk about. If this was rl then national newspapers would be running stories on their CEO's dodgy bedtime antics with a local dog etc. There actions in EC and the recent Alliance break ups of opponents has given them a fantastic platform to be the "Big news".
Before Alliances we'd talk about Mo0 and I guess this was behind the out pouring of collective emotion from vets at the disbandment of ATUK; a famous outfit from pre-Alliance days
So we are left with BoB and their understandable desire to maintain their dominant position both in terms of EvE mindspace and economic impact. What, economics are at the heart of this? Yeah right!
Well I guess TRUST felt the economic impact of BoB aggression and ISS will now feel the economic impact of taking over EC. How many resources will they spend to do it? When they have, will BoB come back and destroy all that Capital.. you bet they will :)
The controlling Corps in BoB have gained from what they acquired in EC and all their Corps will be in a position to benefit from refitting pilots who have lost kit.
An Alliance like BoB cannot impact EvE from one piece of the EvE Galaxy as it's just too big. Defending a slice of space is boring and it sucks up resources which someone else can come along and destroy, to improve their relative position.
So, as IRON/G have learned, it's "more fun" and far more economically effective (in a competitive sense) to copy BoB and continually destabilise rivals and burn their capital.
I guess one fly in the ointment might be if the NPC Factions decided to re-balance EvE, or when BoB fractures under internal pressure, as every major Alliance has done to date.
Don't hate BoB, respect the few who lead the Alliance and their thoughtfulness at how to prevail in the EvE Universe.
What's your view? |
slothe
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Posted - 2006.04.08 12:53:00 -
[2]
please no more.
guess were gonna have to see eh?
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Devoras2
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Posted - 2006.04.08 12:54:00 -
[3]
And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult! |
dimensionZ
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Posted - 2006.04.08 12:54:00 -
[4]
YAABT
(yet again another bob thread)
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Purgatori
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Posted - 2006.04.08 12:55:00 -
[5]
Why did the chicken cross the read..
Oh wait its not a joke post... or is it 
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Breyghun
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Posted - 2006.04.08 13:13:00 -
[6]
No it's not intended as a joke thread. :)
I guess my underlying point is that the guys running BoB are playing the game more effectively than everyone else right now!
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Shirei
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Posted - 2006.04.08 13:14:00 -
[7]
Ohnoes, the sky is falling.
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Rukaz
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Posted - 2006.04.08 13:20:00 -
[8]
Can everybody who is getting a little overexcited please calm down?
Thankyou
:)
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D1ABOLIST
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Posted - 2006.04.08 13:21:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Shirei
Ohnoes, the sky is falling.
QFT
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Goberth Ludwig
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Posted - 2006.04.08 13:23:00 -
[10]
yes! another bob thread
gosh I was starting to worry
- Gob
(my nubie attempt at a forum sig, bare with me plz :p) |
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2006.04.08 13:26:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 08/04/2006 13:27:23
heh you asked for it ....
My view is that we are finally seeing a bit of movement away from the static politics of the past in the north. People are seeing the old order crumble and new ideas come to the fore, itÆs going to be a time of change and new directions as a shakedown in perception and reality of alliance management bites home hard.
What I mean is this: running successful 0.0 alliances is very hard work. Sure any old collection of combat pilots can join and IGA and claim to dominate some lonely constellation or three, but the difference between saying that and shooting a few hapless neutrals and actually building a combat-capable war-machine with the power, focus, and logistics to keep fighting is as different as night and day.
The era of POS, Outposts, Capital ships and large scale warfare might actually signal the end of old style territorial-greed for the sake of it ironically. Whereas before an organisation like IRON (for example) could simply set up and shoot anyone that opposed its claim in Deklein and gain a credible reputation for capability simply by shooting some pirates and the occasion strategic foe while defining its heartland û this kind of thing is increasingly going to become more problematic and much less believable in the future.
Unless an alliance is led by a SirMolle, Cyvock, CountSassine, Pershaphanie/Krullz, Noobscriptor, Trigger, Eternaldark style figure who is prepared to really play the game of leadership, diplomacy, big-picture logistical overview then its going to fall flat in comparison to those alliances that do have these people running the show.
Alliance and territorial claims arenÆt just about consequence-free ôfunö and ôgamesö any more, they are hard work. Hauling ice, defending, administrating, working on naps and presenting a sensible diplomatic front etc etc, these things take a hell of lot of time and effort and represent a massive and direct contrast to the old style of Buddrow-esq (for example) ôomg IÆm bored to the drums of war we goö style leadership.
One consequence I see is going to be more territorially-independent pvp causes going on. PvP-gypsies who donÆt care about territorial claim so much as space combat and excitement in 0.0 while the industrial parts of their organisations work in the safety of empire or via alts in other organisations. I donÆt think weÆve seen the last of IRON/G/RAZOR/Whoever and IÆd take a wild guess that theyÆll reform into a super anti-bob alliance and just go roving and play on the attack against BoB wherever they go.
ThatÆs fine for them of course, but it does represent a retreat from the responsibilities of being a territorial-holding power in 0.0 and shows a return to a simpler ethic and approach to the game as they regress to the status of more-or-less pvp pirate-hood (in methodology if not ethics).
What IÆm trying to say is that I think there will be 4 breeds of animal in the alliance game in the future:
Top of food chain = the BoB style alliance that is logistics+pvp+complete 0.0 confidence with the ôbring itö attitude to challenge. These guys will want to be the best in the game and will attract the best pilots and long term planners. They want the freedom to go anywhere and do anything and successfully fight anybody that challenges their reputation and vision. Diplomacy doesnÆt really matter so much to these guys except to keep the enemies divided and fresh of challenge current and constant. Individual charismatic leadership is vital though.
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2006.04.08 13:27:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 08/04/2006 13:30:28
Next in line = the ASCN/ISS/Trust style alliance that is logistics and industry and organisation heavy. These guys are committed to 0.0 settlement and making the frontier work. They have respected leadership, good diplomatic skills, lots of money and resilience and want to write their names on the map of eve history. The interesting question here is whether territorialism or freespace will triumph in their ideologies û territorial exclusion makes more enemies than friends and to keep their place in the frontier this kind of alliance needs to play the political game well.
Below these the BoB-lite style pvp-alliances. These guys have given up holding territory in their own right as a bad idea because it forces them to do things in the logistics and planning sphere they donÆt enjoy, and the action of defending costs them mystic chi and energy. TheyÆd rather be raiding en masse against the weak points of their enemies and that kind of thing keeps their members happy. This form of alliance will have highs and lows but will not achieve anything significant unless it attracts the leadership of a Molle style personality or accepts the necessity of logistical planning and implementation to underpin long term success.
At the bottom of the chain is the 0.0 client style alliance. These guys exist at the sufferance of more powerful entities and will always be first up against the wall in military campaigns. Their reason for being in 0.0 is making money and gaining acceptance and they will make easy targets for anyone to take in the name of entertainment and fun for pvpers. To evolve into a higher form they need to make progress in logistics, diplomacy, or raw combat ability and to evolve into the highest form they need a balance of all three.
So, to conclude what I see happening is:
Super alliances will continue but it will become apparent that the entry level to be taken seriously is now higher. Good leaders are vital, good planning and sound logistics go hand in hand with fighting capability and a constant positive energy from fresh vision and onward march.
Diplomatic/Industrial alliances will continue and I see the move to freespace ideology and reactive (shoot back NRDS) ROEs ômayö become more popular in the future if the likes of ISS can prove the diplomatic benefits of such things and continue to rise above low-brow standings enclosurism. The fact that the Diplomatic/Industrial alliances are not a direct threat to either the territory/pride/vision of the ôsuperö alliances may guarantee their survival and success. ISS for example donÆt have a stake or reason to see BoB destroyed. BoB are not interacting with the ISS game in a negative way in the broad analysis either. If BoB keep destroying closed border xenophobes and ISS keep building and managing outposts in the frontier thatÆs a kind of indirect symbiosis that will benefit both entities ironically. (BoB see more people in 0.0, some of which will try building empires and oppose them. ISS see those empires destroyed and space cleared of hostile claim û it kinda works).
BoB-lite pvp alliances will flourish in the short term certainly as every man and his dog ditches the pos war and defensive responsibilities and goes guerrilla raiding to take a piece of their crusade objects. These outfits will come and go but I truly donÆt believe they are any more significant than the early pirate corps in pre castor eve. They raid and burn in 0.0 but wonÆt be able to build any lasting presence in the sphere of combat/logistics excellence (ie BOB) or diplomatic/industrial excellence (ie ISS) û and they are pretty much playing the role of barbarians and rootless space gypsies.
Anyway à thatÆs what I think.
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ElCoCo
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Posted - 2006.04.08 13:31:00 -
[13]
My eyes bleed from all the BoB threads...  |
Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.04.08 13:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: ElCoCo
My eyes bleed from all the BoB threads...
i don read threads about Bob anymore, the moment i read the word Bob, my brain klinks out, i hit reply button and type:
O RLY
chances are good that it will be an appopriate reply
Originally by: Oveur
****! Lets nerf it!
To the nerfmobile!
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Goberth Ludwig
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Posted - 2006.04.08 13:40:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Goberth Ludwig on 08/04/2006 13:42:06
JC I wudnt compare ascn with iss or trust. I think they r *completely* different entities.
- Gob
(my nubie attempt at a forum sig, bare with me plz :p) |
Breyghun
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Posted - 2006.04.08 13:44:00 -
[16]
Thanks for your insight, very interesting thoughts for CEO's to mull over.
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Shittake
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Posted - 2006.04.08 13:52:00 -
[17]
Wow. I agree with the Jericho chick.
Jasmine's analysis of the future of 0.0 seems plausible.
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welsh wizard
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Posted - 2006.04.08 13:56:00 -
[18]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 08/04/2006 13:58:48
Edited by: welsh wizard on 08/04/2006 13:57:02
Good post JC.
edit* You make some good points on the future of Eve and 0.0 in particular. It won't change anyones minds though because you cant resist the opportunity to get the odd sly dig into the opposition here and there.
People come to these forums and read these threads with the sole intention of flaming, it happens on both sides of the fence day in day out as I'm sure you have noticed.
These people actively look through your posts looking for anything that might border on a knock at their friends and if they find it you'll get flamed until the cows come home.
Maybe this is actually your intention I don't know? We all secretly enjoy conflict on the forums after all.
However, I have always had the impression you make these long posts in order to try and educate the Eveverse with objective and unbias information. Unfortunately that often isn't how it is interpretated.
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.04.08 14:06:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
The future
I said something fairly similar here.
/signed
That said, a few observations.
1) I think you're overlooking certain logistical factors for smaller alliances
2) I think only time will tell how significant the smaller PvP alliances will be; I don't think they can be written off so easily, particularly given that many of these will not be nearly as "small" as one might expect
3) As I suggested in the other thread, I don't think this status quo is stable. Things will cycle round again, aided in no small part by the fact that
4) Super-alliances like BoB may be becoming are only really efficient when your enemies are other super-alliances. You say "They want the freedom to go anywhere and do anything and successfully fight anybody that challenges their reputation and vision", which they will indeed probably achieve - but there will be very few direct challengers. With the majority (all?) of their enemies working on the "logistics-light" paradigm, there are no home systems to strike, no POS to knock over, no logistical machines to destroy. Instead, their targets will be mainly small, flexible raiding parties, probably BS-light for the most part.
The only way to actually combat these kinds of gangs is to follow a similar model and make your combat ops small and flexible. If you blob them, they'll go round your blob, and if you make that impossible they'll find other targets. The consequence of this is that, unless you're fighting another super-alliance, the only benefit of all the planning and logistics and industry you're slogging your guts out over is the ability to have more small gangs on the move simultaneously. Of course, the amount of combat pilots and thus gangs depends ultimately on how many you can fund, which depends on resources, which depend on the amount of space you own and the efficiency with which you exploit it. I see the relation between number of pilots and space claimed as being a fairly linear one, modified only by the exploitation efficiency. Thus, what you gain in pilot sustainability via expansion you lose again straight away through a larger area of vulnerability. The deciding factor will therefore be efficiency - but even then, if you win the efficiency battle and can properly defend your space, then people are simply going to stay away from you and concentrate on each other, because without any logistical ties your super-alliance simply isn't a major threat.
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ParMizaN
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Posted - 2006.04.08 14:10:00 -
[20]
Very insightful jasmine
Phenomena of ironies, cast the litany aside
How intelligible, blessed be the forgetful |
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Dahin
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Posted - 2006.04.08 14:20:00 -
[21]
And now for something completely different...
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2006.04.08 15:09:00 -
[22]
Goberth, itÆs more a general classification than a direct comparison. I know ASCN and ISS are hugely different in actuality but both put a stress on civilising and settling 0.0 and succeeding through economic planning and large scale civil engineering works (ie outpost building). ASCN are pretty game fighters IÆd not deny it but I think that fighting is not the be all and end all of your game. ThatÆs why I put ASCN in a different class to the BoB category alliance. I think diplomacy and political manoeuvre is much more important for a tier2 mixed industrial/settlement style outfit than for a tier1 ôcome and get it!ö style outfit.
Welsh Wizard. IÆm not really that cunning when it comes to posting, I just tend to say what I think and call it as I see it. As for sly digs û not really, IÆve never made any secret of my opinion of IRON and Buddrow û I think its pretty low-brow 0.0 bullying stuff and the point of the analysis was to say that I believe the game is changing to that kind of approach untenable for that category of territorial-claiming outfit. If Buddrow (for the sake of example) wants now to be the kind of credible space claiming gangster he always appeared to be then heÆd have to work at building an industrial base and POS/sovereignty/cap ship economy û otherwise its just another pirate alliance shooting neutrals and those that do want to build in 0.0. ThatÆs the point.
As for people interpreting me knocking their friends lol tbh. I take the view itÆs a game and weÆre kicking back and discussing the ins and outs of what our pretend characters do on this forum. If people get all tribalist and hate me for saying what I think thatÆs their problem really, I keep a civil tongue and obey the rules. If people disagree with me fine, thatÆs their prerogative and IÆm entirely happy to let the general forum-playing public make up their minds on the merits of the discussions.
Toastius. IÆm not really writing off the smaller pvp alliances (and some of them might be pretty big) from having a short term impact and killing lots of people. IÆm sure they will. But IÆm saying unless they have the leadership and discipline to build an industrial heart to let them fight the pos and capital ship wars they will always be a couple of tiers below those who are playing that game on the food chain. Though ôpiracyö is a massively misused and ill-defined term its pretty much what the rootless pvp alliances will be doing û snapping at the heals of the big boys and taking lives from the weak to interrupt commerce and industry.
Re power itself. ItÆs the not the intervention itÆs the threat of intervention. By which I mean its kinda irrelevant if some pvp rivals of BoB go floating around in extremely well put together guerrilla gangs and score some kills in detail. Unless BobÆs enemies can attack and destroy POS and take outposts and stand against the main fleet its just a skirmish and a sideshow. At some point the devs are going to unveil tech3 and its going to take place in player owned outposts. If you can defend (with military power, economic bribery, diplomatic skill û whatever) your tech3 research establishments you will be a guiding light in the future. If you canÆt, you wonÆt. And when that day comes it will be pretty obvious who the significant players are and who they arenÆt.
This I think upsets your argument about the linear arrangement between power/space/ability to patrol space. It takes time to build things in space. It takes effort to defend them. If a future BOB style super alliance can literally take any outpost in Eve at will they donÆt actually need to be in that territory to exercise power over it. The threat of intervention is more powerful than the reality. But anyone seeking to do business in 0.0 from a rational perspective needs to measure the risk/benefit analysis of the thing in the first place. I really donÆt think its about ôdefending spaceö so much as the ability to project power and intervene anywhere else in eve.
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Cmd Woodlouse
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Posted - 2006.04.08 15:13:00 -
[23]
OHNOES!
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Darkness and humanity. |
Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2006.04.08 15:16:00 -
[24]
Can't help but smile at your post number on the thread Woodlouse 
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Moridan
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Posted - 2006.04.08 15:31:00 -
[25]
Jasmine, stop making sense. I don't like it when i can't argue with (most) of your points.
"Speak quietly and carry a big torpedo."
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.04.08 15:37:00 -
[26]
yes JC stop making sense dammit, we arent used to cope with something like that on these forums 
Originally by: Oveur
****! Lets nerf it!
To the nerfmobile!
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Ripline
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Posted - 2006.04.08 15:42:00 -
[27]
JC reinforced one point that's worth emphasizing there: CCP's stated intention to move 0.0 space and empires more towards infrastructure heavy plays. Cosmos constellations, tactical and strategic POS structures (gate sentries, jumpgate arrays, systemwide scanner arrays). Next tech level manufacturing being bound to high end 0.0 infrastructure.
In a word the probability of the "all teeth no tail" style of alliances succeeding is not very good in the medium-long term. Going to look more and more like modern armies in that respect, it's 90% logistics train.
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.04.08 15:45:00 -
[28]
Hmm, k. I'd disagree with your definition of piracy - if you're out in organised gangs hunting specific alliances then I don't think you're a pirate, any more than mercs are pirates. Yes, if T3 comes and requires outposts then things will get very interesting. However, that'll be at least a year off, and I suspect that by that point the dynamics will have changed again and there will be multiple super-alliances. A lot can change in that kinda timescale, and I suspect these arguments will all be moot by then. I'm prepared to be wrong, but I don't think anyone can see that far ahead.
T3 aside then, it all boils down to how you measure significance, power etc. Yes, the super-alliances will be able to project awesome capital power anywhere in the cluster. But they'll have no targets, because their enemies have no exposed infrastructure. The skirmish alliances, by contrast, have a big fat juicy target in the form of the super-alliances, because that sort of operation needs a massive amount of logistical support. The skirmish alliances will be able to hurt the super-alliances far more than the other way round. If BoB become the lone super-alliance, all their effort becomes essentially irrelevant in PvP terms except when considered as a huge weak spot.
The only hurdle here is the possibility of outpost-based T3. If and when it does come, what happens next depends on whether things have cycled back to territorial control, and if not how quickly people can escalate back up to being major territorial powers, and how much BoB has invested in its (largely useless until this point) capital fleet in the mean time.
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Hermia
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Posted - 2006.04.08 15:47:00 -
[29]
Amazingly IRON,s approch to alliance structure hindered the development of a powerfull industrial base. Their's and others alike dont have the same appreciation for organised industrial folk. Very frustrating.
I have some experiance with this, and watched as key industrial guys left for a better deal, ISS and BoB suck up the most talented.
I left the IRON influence, not saying i was some big industrial boss, but i was a helper elf in a world that just wanted fighters. I left, maybe when i have time for eve again ill get sucked up into ISS or something :)
Northern Citizen |
Haniblecter Teg
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Posted - 2006.04.08 15:54:00 -
[30]
Do you think before you post?
A drunk one legged cat walking across a keyboard can make more sense than the OP.
gtf off these boards, only I am allowed to post rabble.
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