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Huzza Amaa
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Posted - 2006.04.10 06:41:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Huzza Amaa on 10/04/2006 06:43:00
Edited by: Huzza Amaa on 10/04/2006 06:42:37
I have a story to tell, about a problem a corpmate had with drones and kill rights.
The player (who I shall refer to as Jim, which is not his real name), was using an apoc to jetcan mine in 0.6 space. Jim has another account, on which he had a char using a hauler.
Another player (who obviosuly had the nefarious act in mind) warps into the belt. He sets course for Jim's jetcan. Jim is blissfully unaware of the impending doom.
The player opens Jim's jetcan, and takes some ore. At that moment kill rights were awarded to Jim for that player. Unfortunatley Jim's drones (which were in space to kill rats) acted on their own initiative and attacked the player. That meant that kill rights were awarded to the player against Jim, allowing both sides to fight without Concordonktion.
Jim lost his apoc. Following an exchange of heated words, a war is declared against our corp. I consider this gross unfairness and, more importantly, an EXPLOIT.
It is an exploit because the offening player was, I believe, exploting knowledge that there is a loophole in kill rights and he was using that loophole. It is unfair to expect to be killed by an ore thief (of all people) in a 0.6 system.
I believe that to stop this in the future, kill rights should NOT be awarded to the offending party. They should be awarded only to the people who were fired upon first, or in this case, taken advantage of. Alternativley, ore stealing in hisec space could result in immediate Concordonkiton for the ore thief, and in losec, being marked as a GLOBAL CRIMINAL, which means having to tank sentris in your pitiful hauler.
I know that there have been threads like this in the past. Why then, was it not fixed in the blood patch?
I await responses.
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.04.10 06:51:00 -
[2]
Jim lost an Apoc to the much asked for flagging system at work.
That's all the 15 minute thief flagging is about. You can attack the thief. You don't have to attack him. If you don't attack him he can't shoot at you. To grab something from the can, the thief has to be within 1500m of the can. That's normally more than enough time to call back the drones. Or did Jim go afk with the drones out in space?
Kill right is established for destroying a ship or pod. It lasts for 30 days.
Smack talk and the war ... well.
Activate Brain 1.0 before typing in local or any communication.
Talk smack and get smacked around for a bit. Nothing wrong here.
--*=*=*--
Megadon
CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.04.10 06:51:00 -
[3]
As far as I can tell, the only problem here is drone AI. Specifically, they gave someone the right to shoot you, when you didn't want them to. Sounds like a pretty big problem, though. |
Saeris Tal'Urduar
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Posted - 2006.04.10 08:01:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Tachy
Jim lost an Apoc to the much asked for flagging system at work.
That's all the 15 minute thief flagging is about. You can attack the thief. You don't have to attack him. If you don't attack him he can't shoot at you. To grab something from the can, the thief has to be within 1500m of the can. That's normally more than enough time to call back the drones. Or did Jim go afk with the drones out in space?
Kill right is established for destroying a ship or pod. It lasts for 30 days.
Smack talk and the war ... well.
Activate Brain 1.0 before typing in local or any communication.
Talk smack and get smacked around for a bit. Nothing wrong here.
I think what he means is that the drones attacked without orders.
Meaning the Apoc pilot would have let "Jim" steal without repercussion.
But because the drones auto attacked, the Apoc got wasted.
Not an exploit...but I agree drones should not attack because someone filched some ore.
Suks.
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Crobain Stalker
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Posted - 2006.04.10 08:25:00 -
[5]
exactly the same thing happened to me on about my 3rd day playing. I learnt then to leave the drones in the bay and release and recall them manually.
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Sim Frost
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Posted - 2006.04.10 08:46:00 -
[6]
I have lost hope that drones would someday be fixed or improved. Looking at some other MMORPGs where pets have their own pop up window with easy to click buttons and diversity of commands, etc and comparing them with our user-hostile drones!!!
"Click on the right command if you can" kinda cranky drone interface, drones locking and attacking on your teammate when you are sieged by lots of enemies, drones sitting and watching the nebula landscape when commanded to attack, etc.
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Jarq Trashin
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Posted - 2006.04.10 08:52:00 -
[7]
I would be glad if drones would act like that anytime. Because that would be a fun way of disposing of macrominers. This doesnt work with macroers though.
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Jaketh Ivanes
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Posted - 2006.04.10 09:00:00 -
[8]
That problem is worthy of a petiton for reimbursment. The mechanics forced a loss to the player, kinda like a lag spike does.
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Something Random
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Posted - 2006.04.10 09:28:00 -
[9]
Guess you guys STILL havnt looked closely at your drones in space.
On the side.... Microsoft Windows logo.
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AlienBreed
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Posted - 2006.04.10 09:33:00 -
[10]
Quote:
That problem is worthy of a petiton for reimbursment. The mechanics forced a loss to the player, kinda like a lag spike does.
yeah i agree
but i do hope they wont turn drones passive, i like the way drones will attack by themselfs so if it needs changing then hopefully it will be something along the lines of a yes/no tickbox for auto attacking drones
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D'onryu Shoqui
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Posted - 2006.04.10 09:38:00 -
[11]
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 10/04/2006 09:39:16
probably thought he was a macro miner.
one of the reasons i barely ever use my covetor in empire space anymore.
can take 6mins to fill my hold so i wouldnt need to be concentrating on eve. would obviously have my drones out incase any rats spawn.
its just lame exploiting to get a kill imo.
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Basileus
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Posted - 2006.04.10 09:44:00 -
[12]
The miners whined and whined until they could shoot at players stealing their ore. Now they have these right, and they still moan. Get real.
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D'onryu Shoqui
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Posted - 2006.04.10 09:52:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Basileus
The miners whined and whined until they could shoot at players stealing their ore. Now they have these right, and they still moan. Get real.
judging from your posts the only reason you come to the forums is to troll 
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Bowwow Meow
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Posted - 2006.04.10 10:14:00 -
[14]
What you did was similar to simply sitting in a belt with large smartbombs active "to deal with rats" and then crying because someone flew to close and died.
The whole can flagging system was put in place because of people like you, and now the people you were trying to stop are using that system against you.
PS: How would you haul if anyone stealing from your can gets concorded.
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Jaketh Ivanes
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Posted - 2006.04.10 10:25:00 -
[15]
Originally by: AlienBreed
Quote:
That problem is worthy of a petiton for reimbursment. The mechanics forced a loss to the player, kinda like a lag spike does.
yeah i agree
but i do hope they wont turn drones passive, i like the way drones will attack by themselfs so if it needs changing then hopefully it will be something along the lines of a yes/no tickbox for auto attacking drones
That sounds like a very good idea.
Perhaps even expand the option, to only attack if the drones or player is attacked (shot at).
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Aram Gishno
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Posted - 2006.04.10 10:29:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Aram Gishno on 10/04/2006 10:30:20
the point i think the OP is trying to make is that there's something "flawed" with the way criminal flagging and drones seems to be working at the moment. what seems to happen is; Player A is mining, using his drones for protection (why an apoc should need drones to protect himself in empire is another matter alltogether), and then Player B lifts some of that ore. If A's drones are within their activation proximity (4000m for a heavy drone) range when Player B gets criminally flagged, it seems tha they will aggro him of their own, thus forcing a combat situation, one in which the average player who mines in an apoc (8 miner IIs, rechargers and lot's of CPU upgrades) usually won't be equipped to handle.
The same thing will apply to, say, barges, only that most barge WILL require drones for protection. Basically this gives people a rather easy way to gank miners in High-sec empire, at least barges. Intended? Doubt it. Exploit? Depends.
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Roshan longshot
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Posted - 2006.04.10 10:39:00 -
[17]
No exploit here, just another case of uncrontrolled drones. We need more controls for the things.
I can tell my coffe pot when to start....
I can tell the Vacumm not to suck up the cat...
I can tell a lawn mower to cut the grass while I play eve...
I can even tell an airplane where to go and how to land, (auto-land)....
But I cant get these stupid drones to engage the target and only the target I want them to.
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter pirate or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box.
We are not ebil forum police, for one thing I don't have a hat :( - Cortes |
Tehyarec
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Posted - 2006.04.10 10:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Huzza Amaa
I believe that to stop this in the future, kill rights should NOT be awarded to the offending party.
If only this were so! It's not enough that no one but yourself (or your gang at the time it happens) can do anything to the thief, but furthermore if you do attack, intentionally or not, the whole offender's gang can attack you. Now, if the target of the theft could fire upon the stealer, yet if the stealer shot back CONCORD would intervene, THEN it'd be at least a somewhat decent system.
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.04.10 11:13:00 -
[19]
It still is about criminal flagging, not about a kill right. They are two different sets of socks.
Criminal flagged = in combat with you. Your drones will attack. That is the point of the flagging and the drones out in space.
Once you attack the ore liberator, you're flagged for him too.
Now you can shoot each other at leasure.
The ore liberator is free to defend himself if you attack him, but concord will not interfere.
Being AFK with an activated smartbomb or drones running around isn't the most smart thing you can do in EVE. I don't think he'll get the ship back because the system did exactly what it is intended to do.
--*=*=*--
Megadon
CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
D'onryu Shoqui
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Posted - 2006.04.10 11:26:00 -
[20]
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 10/04/2006 11:28:19
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 10/04/2006 11:26:54
seeing as so many people think this is okay ,anyone want to go on a rampage after DT? we can swarm belts stealing ore and killing everyone with our fleet of bships. probably get a nice ammount of good loot and named expanders while were at it.
its obviously alot more profitable than pirating at gates are and its pretty much the same thing 
just think of all the barges mining ice while afk for short periods of time and they have there drones out ;) + have cans.
we could even do it with alts seeing as barges have so little hp
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Jaketh Ivanes
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Posted - 2006.04.10 11:30:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tehyarec
Originally by: Huzza Amaa
I believe that to stop this in the future, kill rights should NOT be awarded to the offending party.
If only this were so! It's not enough that no one but yourself (or your gang at the time it happens) can do anything to the thief, but furthermore if you do attack, intentionally or not, the whole offender's gang can attack you. Now, if the target of the theft could fire upon the stealer, yet if the stealer shot back CONCORD would intervene, THEN it'd be at least a somewhat decent system.
But then it would not be EvE.
One of EvE's most fundamental aspects, is that you can choose the life of piracy, including can stealing and regular pirating. (Jetting a can is considered garbage, otherwise use a secure can). If concord were there to protect you 24/7 (yes, even druing dt) then it would be a booring game.
And about you "Thiefs gang can attack", I don't think so. Its only the thief that is allowed to retaliate. I also remember (vaguely) that its only corp members that gets free fire on the thief also, not the miners gang.
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D'onryu Shoqui
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Posted - 2006.04.10 11:33:00 -
[22]
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 10/04/2006 11:34:32
if someone attacks someone who is ganged i thought the whole gang could fight back?
no its not really what i want to play eve for ,but it would get this fixed quick if enough people did it, just think of all the carebears who would make quit threads over it.
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Jaketh Ivanes
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Posted - 2006.04.10 11:33:00 -
[23]
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 10/04/2006 11:28:19
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 10/04/2006 11:26:54
seeing as so many people think this is okay ,anyone want to go on a rampage after DT? we can swarm belts stealing ore and killing everyone with our fleet of bships. probably get a nice ammount of good loot and named expanders while were at it.
its obviously alot more profitable than pirating at gates are and its pretty much the same thing
just think of all the barges mining ice while afk for short periods of time and they have there drones out ;) + have cans.
we could even do it with alts seeing as barges have so little hp
Sure, if thats what you want to do, then by all means, go do it. Its your choice. Choice beeing the keyword here  .
But I still think there should be a drone option, that enables them to only attack IF shot at (drone or player).
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The Wizz117
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Posted - 2006.04.10 11:41:00 -
[24]
Drone AI sucks and it olways sucked, dev's will say they are going to fix it but they won't
u just live with it or find a game with not a zilion bugs.
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.04.10 11:43:00 -
[25]
@D'onryu Shoqui:
You wont find many miners with combat drones out in space because most of them can count to two or already learned it the hard way.
The system does exactly what many miners required over and over and over.
It has exactly the downsides some pilots stated rom the beginning.
Easy cure for your so called bug:
Don't go afk with combat drones out in space. If there is another ship approaching your can and you have drones out in space, call them back and scoop them to the drone hangar.
For the groups or corps of the miner and ore liberator, actually I don't care. I keep my drones inside my ship unless I have to get rid of some NPC. As long as they're out in the open I give them commands a bit early so they wont aggro stuff I do not want them to hit. It is not higher math, nor organic chemistry.
--*=*=*--
Megadon
CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
M3ta7h3ad
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Posted - 2006.04.10 13:05:00 -
[26]
Edited by: M3ta7h3ad on 10/04/2006 13:05:25
Couple of points (plus one).
1.) He is in empire, in an apoc, mining in a belt with frigate rats. If Apocs can mine in 0.0 and tank the battleship NPC's + support. He should surely be able to tank 0.5+ frigate rats indefinately.
2.) Does he not know how to use drones? You recall your drones after killing NPC rats. As the first things NPC's will target when they respawn are your drones, and drones dont last long when faced with frigates.
3.) Can flagging is great, and the current mechanism isnt an exploit it is infact down to your/his foolishness that he lost your/his ship.
-----
If you kill all the wolves, your gonna end up with a crapload of bunnies, and by bunnies I mean stupid people
Eve & Linux Woot! |
Kylania
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Posted - 2006.04.10 13:25:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Roshan longshot
No exploit here, just another case of uncrontrolled drones. We need more controls for the things.
I can tell my coffe pot when to start....
I can tell the Vacumm not to suck up the cat...
I can tell a lawn mower to cut the grass while I play eve...
I can even tell an airplane where to go and how to land, (auto-land)....
But I cant get these stupid drones to engage the target and only the target I want them to.
Actually you CAN tell your drones to engage the target and only the target you want them to. Rclick and "return and orbit". There ya go, safely restrained drones. Or take it a step furthur and leave your drones in your hold till you need them.
This issue comes back to peoples total lack of personal responsibilty and attention. No matter where you are, if you're jet can mining and someone approached you, you should be prepared for an ore thief, not just blindly keep mining as if nothing is amiss.
If your coffee pot is full, but you tell it to start anyway, is it the coffee pot's fault that it spills all over your floor? If your cat is sleeping under the vacuum when you turn it on, is it the vacumm's fault that your cat gets sucked up? If your robot lawn mower has been moved so it's preprogrammed area is off center is it your robot lawn mower's fault that it eats your daisies? If there's already a plane landing on the strip you've preprogrammed your airplane to land on, is it your airplane's fault for crashing into it?
It's not the drones fault, it's Jim's fault. He was careless and that's the price he pays. *shrug*
And, as Tachy said, this has nothing to do with Kill Rights, it's criminal can theft flagging. Kill Rights is only when your ship is unlawfully destroyed.
--
Lil Miner |
Enaxtiomarus
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Posted - 2006.04.10 13:44:00 -
[28]
Originally by: M3ta7h3ad
3.) Can flagging is great, and the current mechanism isnt an exploit it is infact down to your/his foolishness that he lost your/his ship.
Drone AI still sucks.
Can flagging is ok.
It's only a matter of time before the exploiters carry this over to victimize mission-runners too.
1) Noob123 in t1 frigate starts mission near gate.
2) Xploitr456 w/cruiser + MWD gets there and robs Noob123's loot can.
3) Noob123's drones target and fire on exploiter.
4) Xploitr456 gets free reign to *****Noob123 because he wasn't aware that DRONES FCKING SUCK. FIX THEM NOW CCP.
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Enaxtiomarus
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Posted - 2006.04.10 13:56:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kylania
This issue comes back to peoples total lack of personal responsibilty and attention.
...
It's not the drones fault, it's Jim's fault. He was careless and that's the price he pays.
This is CCP's fault, not Jim's fault.
It is not the responsibility of players to know about every single bug in the game and how to work around it. It's the responsibility of the developer.
What's messed up about these responses is that there's some kind of twisted assumption being made that CCP can do no wrong. Well, there is wrong here and it's on CCP's plate. Get that through your head and deal with it.
Drone AI still sucks, and needs to be fixed. Period. There is no way you can stick this one on Jim. Granted, since he has an Apoc I must assume that Jim should know by now that drones suck and to use the proper amount of eggshell-walking when trying to use them. But for the majority of players who are noobs, this is yet another bug to cast onto the pile of reasons to quit Eve.
CCP's focus ought to be on fixing bugs that new players might encounter, and it clearly is not.
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Romble
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Posted - 2006.04.10 14:07:00 -
[30]
Seriously, this is such a simple thing to fix , I am not sure why CCP has not done anything on it/.
All you need is the standard pet passive, aggressive and defensive features. Every other game has this at minimum when concerning pet controls. Basically right now the drones are auto set to defensive and have no way of changing that unless you park them in your bay. Kind of crap.
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