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okoolos rimmer
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
35
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Posted - 2014.03.06 19:46:00 -
[31] - Quote
Xavier i agree with many but not all of your arguments but I have a question of my own. If CSM is irrelevant then should we just ignore the elections and send people we like for a trip to Iceland? or do you have any concrete suggestions how to improve things? |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1302
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 21:33:00 -
[32] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: Bullshit like this used to really annoy me, but I now find great comfort in the fact that your own dearly protected ignorance will also ensure that you can't have any effect on the CSM process other than persuading people who are as foolish as yourself to stay out of it as well.
this makes Malcanis supporters look as stupid as supporters of Ero1 The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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XavierVE
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
250
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Posted - 2014.03.06 23:52:00 -
[33] - Quote
okoolos rimmer wrote:Xavier i agree with many but not all of your arguments but I have a question of my own. If CSM is irrelevant then should we just ignore the elections and send people we like for a trip to Iceland? or do you have any concrete suggestions how to improve things?
Two cents: just make sure you do all of the player surveys that CCP put out. Whether you vote or not doesn't really make a difference. Just be realistic about what the CSM is. An elected focus group, nothing more. It does not really matter who gets elected, overall.
In terms of improving the CSM as concept, I don't believe there is much that could be done. The problem with the CSM isn't generally the people who get elected, most of them are fairly nice folk who CCP employees probably like drinking beer with. They're a PR tool and a focus group. There's not much "change" you can do to the CSM which makes it anything more than some players who are sometimes used as a sounding board, and more often used in their primary function... a tool to placate the player base. |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
876
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Posted - 2014.03.07 00:29:00 -
[34] - Quote
XavierVE wrote: In terms of improving the CSM as concept, I don't believe there is much that could be done. The problem with the CSM isn't generally the people who get elected, most of them are fairly nice folk who CCP employees probably like drinking beer with. They're a PR tool and a focus group. There's not much "change" you can do to the CSM which makes it anything more than some players who are sometimes used as a sounding board, and more often used in their primary function... a tool to placate the player base.
Given Malc is part of this discussion I am not sure you can say we do a lot of placating as our main purpose.
Me, I'm Canadian. Being polite comes with the igloo and the toque.
Can I prove we made a difference? No, the big stuff we do is under NDA. If CCP says we really helped a cynical person could question the validity of endorsing your own sockpuppet.
So it is up to you, the players. Do you want to help choose people who may (or may not) have an effect on the game? If it is the latter then what do you lose by voting? If the former is true and you don't vote then you are giving up a chance to have a say in what happens in this game. There ARE organizations that would rather you believed that this was useless and there was no sense in anybody voting.
except
Even the most cynical organizations in the game work hard to control the election and organize their people to vote. Would they do that and try to 'control the council' if there was no real power to be had? Or would they be better served to convince the general populace that there was no point to voting so don't bother THEN vote themselves to get their viewpoint represented and yours ignored.
nah, that is just too manipulative for the nice people who I play games with, right?
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 |
okoolos rimmer
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 02:26:00 -
[35] - Quote
Wait so the arguments for voting in CSM elections are the fact that there isn't anything better so "we may as well.." and that nullsec blocks are trying to manipulate it so there "must be something there!". That's rather thin. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14020
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Posted - 2014.03.08 17:14:00 -
[36] - Quote
XavierVE wrote:Malcanis wrote:You should compare the list of CSM proposals to CCP with what got implemented. I think that cold hard facts might surprise you. Only if I were prone to ignore the massive amount of suggestions that were not implemented.
Good ideas are essentially free. There's an unlimited supply of them, continually renewed. At best only a small fraction of suggestions and proposals will ever be seriously looked at, let alone even partially implemented.
As part of my CSM duties, I posted some good advice on how to maximise the chances of your idea being considered.
However, the fraction of CSM supported proposals that have been implemented is at least an order or two of magnitude higher.
1 Kings 12:11
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14020
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Posted - 2014.03.08 17:16:00 -
[37] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Malcanis wrote: Bullshit like this used to really annoy me, but I now find great comfort in the fact that your own dearly protected ignorance will also ensure that you can't have any effect on the CSM process other than persuading people who are as foolish as yourself to stay out of it as well.
this makes Malcanis supporters look as stupid as supporters of Ero1
My supporters voted.
1 Kings 12:11
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14020
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Posted - 2014.03.08 17:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
okoolos rimmer wrote:Wait so the arguments for voting in CSM elections are the fact that there isn't anything better so "we may as well.." and that nullsec blocks are trying to manipulate it so there "must be something there!". That's rather thin.
If that's the argument you have inferred from what's posted here, well...
OK how about this. If the "nullsec blocs" think it's valuable enough to spend time and effort on, is that not a prima facia argument that there's something worth controlling?
This being the case, is it not worth your own time at least putting your vote in to spoil their plans while you work out if you want to take the time to investigate the matter more fully?
1 Kings 12:11
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14021
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 17:47:00 -
[39] - Quote
Balder Verdandi wrote:I think a lot of players don't understand the CSM, it's purpose, or the fact that their hands are tied by the NDA they have to sign.
To be fair, I think the CSM needs to be a bit more available to the player base. You can't do it all on forums. You folks need to use TwitchTV, YouTube, Facebook, something to get out there and talk to the players. We should have Q&A sessions where we can find out more about what you're doing to help the community, what you're presenting to CCP, what ideas you've created since becoming part of the CSM.
None of us have done all of those things, but pretty much all of of those things have been done by at least some of us. Several CSMs have blogs, several are active on twitter, several of us are active on forums, all of us (who are active at all) have been in Town Halls, and so on.
1 Kings 12:11
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XavierVE
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
250
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Posted - 2014.03.08 17:59:00 -
[40] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Good ideas are essentially free. There's an unlimited supply of them, continually renewed. At best only a small fraction of suggestions and proposals will ever be seriously looked at, let alone even partially implemented. As part of my CSM duties, I posted some good advice on how to maximise the chances of your idea being considered. However, the fraction of CSM supported proposals that have been implemented is at least an order or two of magnitude higher.
I love replies like this. "An order or two of magnitude higher." It's when you know someone has turned around and thinks you're too stupid to notice that they're talking out of their ass.
Literally thousands upon thousands of ideas are posted by people on the forums, on blogs, on third-party forums. To claim that the CSM is somehow a relevant process worthy of the yearly hullabaloo because the average idea has a 0.2% chance of being implemented, but the average CSM backed idea has a 0.8% chance of being implemented is not exactly the hearty endorsement that I think that you think it is.
Quote:OK how about this. If the "nullsec blocs" think it's valuable enough to spend time and effort on, is that not a prima facia argument that there's something worth controlling?
This being the case, is it not worth your own time at least putting your vote in to spoil their plans while you work out if you want to take the time to investigate the matter more fully?
The old "Goons will dominate if you don't vote!" reason for voting. Considering the ego of The Mittani is... "an order or two of magnitude higher" than your average person... would it not also stand to reason that a null-sec bloc wants people on the CSM because it's a matter of prestige and ego, rather than anything that has any true worth? Speaking from the perspective of a very small alliance that had a CSM member elected last cycle, there is a certain cachet that comes from having a CSM member. But that's about it.
Alternatively, if what you say is true and that the CSM is so powerful that null-sec blocs really want to get the vote out in order to abuse the system... shouldn't then the system be scrapped, in order to prevent player abuse of the entire game?
You cannot have it both ways. The "Vote or the Goons will win!" boogeyman is so pathetic. |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14023
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 19:58:00 -
[41] - Quote
XavierVE wrote:Malcanis wrote:Good ideas are essentially free. There's an unlimited supply of them, continually renewed. At best only a small fraction of suggestions and proposals will ever be seriously looked at, let alone even partially implemented. As part of my CSM duties, I posted some good advice on how to maximise the chances of your idea being considered. However, the fraction of CSM supported proposals that have been implemented is at least an order or two of magnitude higher. I love replies like this. "An order or two of magnitude higher." Terms like that are when you know someone has turned around and thinks you're too stupid to notice that they're talking out of their ass. Literally thousands upon thousands of ideas are posted by people on the forums, on blogs, on third-party forums. To claim that the CSM is somehow a relevant process worthy of the yearly hullabaloo because the average idea has a 0.2% chance of being implemented, but the average CSM backed idea has a 0.8% chance of being implemented is not exactly the hearty endorsement that I think that you think it is.
I love replies like this. They indicate that someone has made a huge assumption and not actually bothered to check the numbers.
Go check 'em. There isn't a "0." at the front.
1 Kings 12:11
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Lambert Simnel
PWLS Enterprises
29
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 22:57:00 -
[42] - Quote
Korvin wrote:EVE is still not a free to play and have no imbalanced pay to win stuff... Yet another year of success in a constant battle of greed vs sanity.
This is why you failed.... |
XavierVE
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
250
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 23:04:00 -
[43] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Go check the numbers which are so obvious that I can't post what the number is and would you please quit replying to me since I have nothing to actually back up what I"m saying. You're dumb lolololol
Cool. |
Ali Aras
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
632
|
Posted - 2014.03.09 03:10:00 -
[44] - Quote
Responding to several posts, and so not quoting any:
For those in this thread who're saying that the CSM isn't effective, why do you say that? What are you looking for that would convince you that the CSM is effective? Xavier, I know you're mad about the interceptor nullification thing, but "I disagree with a decision CCP has made" is not proof of CSM ineffectiveness. Those concerns regarding nullification have been relayed and discussed, and the agility nerf implemented partly as a response to them. That said, the overall mechanic is still one that many players and CSMs find interesting.
You said, a while back, that CSM 8 often talks about the SMA thing as an accomplishment, but that it stands alone. It's true that we do-- most of the reason this is is because the process leading up to the fix was blanket un-NDA'd by CCP Dolan, meaning that I can use it as the best possible example of how the CSM process works. Otherwise, I'm left with "idea...stuff happened...DEVBLOG!".
It is not, however, the *only* thing the CSM has accomplished. We pushed for drone assist changes, we brought up issues with damps and other ewar. This week alone, I have seen three things pass my way: one, a post that would have surely outraged players (CSM gave feedback to this effect, and it was acted on), a post on a larger upcoming feature (mostly good, but some of the details are poor; the discussion is ongoing, and as with siphons, I'll be very clear on what I think and have thought once it comes out), and a larger discussion that I'm nervous about, but waiting for more information on. When the information comes, I'll act as appropriate, representing the entire playerbase but paying particular attention to newbies and independent groups. At worst, we're 1/3 for the week already in terms of ~relevance~. We've also got a large chunk of minutes back, which means doing *our* jobs and compiling those for release.
There's a problem where, if the CSM successfully performs our function and gives good feedback/raises player concerns before a thing is made public, those comments become a road not taken. The ship skinning dev blog went over well-- we saw that feature and that blog long before it was made public, and our input there was taken seriously in both the implementation and the communication. Is that visible? Not really. I don't know how to make it more so, but that's a goal I'm going to be working towards next year. http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14024
|
Posted - 2014.03.09 12:35:00 -
[45] - Quote
XavierVE wrote:Malcanis wrote:Go check the numbers which are so obvious that I can't post what the number is and would you please quit replying to me since I have nothing to actually back up what I"m saying. You're dumb lolololol Cool.
Proverb
"There are none so blind as those who will not see"
- Understanding cannot be forced on someone who chooses to be ignorant.
1 Kings 12:11
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XavierVE
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
250
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Posted - 2014.03.09 18:12:00 -
[46] - Quote
Quote:"I disagree with a decision CCP has made" is not proof of CSM ineffectiveness.
If only it were mere disagreement. The original Interceptor nullification change was game-breaking due to the nature of server ticks. The fact that the CSM could not see that or push back against it, despite the fact that dozens of people were pointing it out before release, is a prime example of the CSM process either being inept (they also did not understand the nature of server ticks) or irrelevant (they understood the game mechanic and were ignored).
The fact that you and your ilk still try to defend the original Rubicon change, or that you think the correct answer to the problem that change caused was giving interceptors AF-like agility... doesn't really speak well either.
Quote:What are you looking for that would convince you that the CSM is effective?
The game consistently improving since the creation of the CSM. If the CSM is effective, the game development in the years since the CSM was created should have improved. Has it? No. There have been some successes in terms of improving the game, but many, many massive failures in that time.
The fact that the CSM has not been able to help prevent those failures and in some cases, seem oblivious to why certain decisions are a failure to begin with... points to the irrelevance of the process in general. Which isn't just this CSM, you can go back to the badly rolled out Planetary Interaction, Incarna as an expansion in general, the creation of Incursions and how imbalanced the faucet was with them, and every other fail of the last few years. CCP is the same CCP no matter what grouping gets sent to party with them in Iceland. |
Frying Doom
3643
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 09:08:00 -
[47] - Quote
It seems a real shame that I don't have time to pick on the candidates this year, it looks like half of EvE is running for the CSM.
I do hope they at least fixed the voting this year, so people can abstain, rather than last years "Most representative CSM" dribble.
Kind of like calling an election with one candidate a fair and representative election.
But alas the kangaroos are playing up and we are expecting to see some American tourists to faint when they see a croc, rather than these baby sized alligators they have in the USA lol
Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!! |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
718
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 17:19:00 -
[48] - Quote
Ali Aras wrote: For those in this thread who're saying that the CSM isn't effective, why do you say that? What are you looking for that would convince you that the CSM is effective?
I think this question was touched on in the original post.
Where were all you guys during the SOMER BLINK bullsh!t?
Mal'canis voiced his opinion even though it was a ignorant fanboy opinion. Not today spaghetti. |
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
2857
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 22:02:00 -
[49] - Quote
CSM elections time is my favorite time of the EVE year. Anger. Controversy. Passion. Drama. Cyclical arguments. Ad hominems. Libelous statements. Bad false assumptions and begging the question. "I know you are, but what about me?" Inane redundant comments by people who didn't scroll up. The Massively Multiplayer Election minigame is excellent! |
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
497
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 15:02:00 -
[50] - Quote
XavierVE wrote:Quote:What are you looking for that would convince you that the CSM is effective? The game consistently improving since the creation of the CSM. If the CSM is effective, the game development in the years since the CSM was created should have improved. Has it? No. There have been some successes in terms of improving the game, but many, many massive failures in that time. The fact that the CSM has not been able to help prevent those failures and in some cases, seem oblivious to why certain decisions are a failure to begin with... points to the irrelevance of the process in general. Which isn't just this CSM, you can go back to the badly rolled out Planetary Interaction, Incarna as an expansion in general, the creation of Incursions and how imbalanced the faucet was with them, and every other fail of the last few years. CCP is the same CCP no matter what grouping gets sent to party with them in Iceland.
You are not the sole arbiter of whether a decision is a good one, get over yourself. At best that makes your so called proof a personal opinion that you insist on presenting as a fact, which frankly is a idiotic thing to do which rightly gets laughed at when people try to do it in other parts of the forum. Note I am not automaticly saying that any of the things you mentioned were good ideas, just that your opinion is not the sole deciding factor.
Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin
you're welcome |
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SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2498
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 23:29:00 -
[51] - Quote
XavierVE wrote: Literally thousands upon thousands of ideas are posted by people on the forums, on blogs, on third-party forums. To claim that the CSM is somehow a relevant process worthy of the yearly hullabaloo because the average idea has a 0.2% chance of being implemented, but the average CSM backed idea has a 0.8% chance of being implemented is not exactly the hearty endorsement that I think that you think it is.
Oh no did your dumb pet idea not get passed? Is your alt the one that wanted fighterbombers on carriers or something? |
Balder Verdandi
Czerka. WHY so Seri0Us
217
|
Posted - 2014.03.15 15:00:00 -
[52] - Quote
I think the point Xavier is trying to make, without it getting personal, is there HAVE been some serious issues that haven't gotten attention, including issues that the community as a whole have said were going to be bad and were pushed into production anyway.
Corp Roles - People have complained about this for seems to be eons, yet its only been six years. Let's say that again; 6 years. You can't say something like, "Well let's be fair to CCP about this.", because it's been roughly 60% of the games total life. That's a LONG time.
Modular POS/POS issues - This has been another sticking point. People have gone so far as to provide examples to CCP to help get this on a roll, and we've even had some suggest its been stuck on a back burner somewhere. I honestly believe it hasn't even made it to the kitchen, much less the top of the stove to be put on a "back burner". I don't think CCP has an understanding of the code, and since the person/team responsible for it probably isn't employed there any longer, they simply have no clue how to fix it.
Unified Inventory - This was another fiasco that was rushed from non-production into production and failed. The player base said it was a horrible idea, they were right, and it took a year to fix. A year to fix it? That's just unacceptable.
The new launcher - Another fiasco that was supposed to help players and instead has been a melting pot of issues. The launcher was supposed to help log players in faster by being able to select characters sooner. That was a fail. It was supposed to help multi-boxers log accounts in faster. That was a fail. It's supposed to help patching. Yeah, you guessed it; it's a failure there, too. There have been more complaints about patching than I have ever seen in the past 3 or 4 years of me playing this game. Even the forum thread started by CCP Atropos about the "New Launcher" can't get her to respond since the middle of November. That's been 4 months since an official reply, and from a customer service viewpoint, this is disgusting. And yes, the playerbase said this was a bad idea. It was rushed into production, and people are still complaining about it because it makes it so they can't play a game they love. I expect this to be fixed in about a year, since this seems to be about the time it takes for the "rushed to production" issues to truly get fixed.
Then there is Incarna, the issues with Planetary Interaction when it started, and the list goes on and on.
While I might not speak for all the players, there have been many time where the player base has come back with very vocal, very intuitive, and very sound reasons why some of the "game upgrades" needed more time in development, didn't get it, and have messed up game play. There are times where the player base doesn't feel like it's being recognized or heard, and sadly this is true. I think people want more from the CSM since the belief is you have CCP's ear and should be heard.
Being realistic, I know there are times the CSM won't be heard by CCP. I think people want to hear about this, because if we're electing you to perform this serviced for us, then its our voice (the players) that isn't being listened to either.
Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"! Player Owned Station fix dated back to 2006!
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14099
|
Posted - 2014.03.15 15:20:00 -
[53] - Quote
Not every team talks to us. Remember that when you speak of "CCP" you're not referring to a monolithic hive-entity.
Incidentally, with specific respect to the launcher, you know how you're still able to bypass it? You like that?
Then you owe me, personally, a thank you.
1 Kings 12:11
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Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society Affirmative.
293
|
Posted - 2014.03.15 18:16:00 -
[54] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Then you owe me, personally, a thank you. Like, seriously?
I have to come up with something to give you at Fanfest for that.. (you are there, right?) |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14121
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Posted - 2014.03.15 19:43:00 -
[55] - Quote
I will be there. I accept hugs from poor people; beers otherwise.
1 Kings 12:11
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Balder Verdandi
Czerka. WHY so Seri0Us
217
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Posted - 2014.03.17 00:01:00 -
[56] - Quote
Sephira Galamore wrote:Malcanis wrote:Then you owe me, personally, a thank you. Like, seriously? I have to come up with something to give you at Fanfest for that.. (you are there, right?)
Give him some cheese. It will go great with his wine. Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"! Player Owned Station fix dated back to 2006!
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14144
|
Posted - 2014.03.17 16:59:00 -
[57] - Quote
Balder Verdandi wrote:Sephira Galamore wrote:Malcanis wrote:Then you owe me, personally, a thank you. Like, seriously? I have to come up with something to give you at Fanfest for that.. (you are there, right?) Give him some cheese. It will go great with his wine.
Cheese and wine are both acceptable rewards.
Unoaked chardonnays only though; the oaked stuff plays havoc with my digestion.
1 Kings 12:11
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Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society Affirmative.
295
|
Posted - 2014.03.17 22:09:00 -
[58] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Cheese and wine are both acceptable rewards.
Unoaked chardonnays only though; the oaked stuff plays havoc with my digestion. Before you said beer I was actually considering mead aka honey wine but I guess that's too sweet for ya. |
Doctor Deichscheich
The Zorgg Collective
1
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Posted - 2014.04.06 23:02:00 -
[59] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: Incidentally, with specific respect to the launcher, you know how you're still able to bypass it? You like that?
Then you owe me, personally, a thank you.
I'm not sure whether one can win Eve, but you just won it's forums.
Thank you, personally. |
Jallukola
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2014.04.09 10:55:00 -
[60] - Quote
Korvin wrote:EVE is still not a free to play and have no imbalanced pay to win stuff... Yet another year of success in a constant battle of greed vs sanity. But that isn't thanks to CSM. That is thanks to the community blasting voices together with a note of "NO!". |
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