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Svarun
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Posted - 2003.09.17 12:24:00 -
[1]
One of the brightest points of EVE is without a doubt the skill system. It dealt with many issues that plagued other MMORPGs very elegantly - there is no more macroing, tweaking is reduced to minimum, you are able to keep up with your friends even if you dont play 24/7...
But still, there seems to be something missing, a reward for those who are prepared to invest more time in the game. Of course there is wealth, but some of us would like to see something involving the development of character. And since changing skill system would be inpractical, if not stupid, I propose enabling some kind of experience for our _ships_.
Just think about it, at the moment, a loss of the ship is nothing but a minor nussiance. Players dont mourn the loss of their vessel, they consider loosing the modules a bigger hit. And that is just not right! What if space vessels would improve in some way through the time of use? Afterall, the crew of a battleship is about 7000 people, why would only one of them get better through time? I think it would be interesting to have ships improve in time depending on what we do with them. For example, if you are mostly hunting pirates, the ROF and maybe damage of turrets/missile bays would improve slightly. Traders and haulers on the other hand would get gradently faster and more agile vessels. Crews of mining ships would learn to utilize mining lasers more efficiently, thus slightly improving the yield...
As you can see, the possibilities are almost endless and I think that it would add a whole new dimension to the game. Captains would actually get attached to their ships, just like Han Solo to his Millenium Falcon. They would actually start to care about their vessels, the loss of a cruiser or battleship would be tragic in more than one way, the more proficient skippers would be rewarded with more efficient tools and so forth.
Anyway, it would be nice to turn those beautifully rendered polygons to something more then high/mid/low slot carriers.
Please post your oppinions.
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Champ
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Posted - 2003.09.17 12:30:00 -
[2]
Best idea in here ever! Sadly I doubt that any devs reads this :(
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.17 12:30:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 17/09/2003 12:32:13
I think players who have been in the game longer already have enough of an advantage with the head start on skill training - a gap which will NEVER be bridged by new players.
I would rather not see the gap between the new and the old made larger by yet another bonus for "in game time."
The beauty of EVE is you don't need to play for 10 hours a day to be competetitive. This would just play into the hands of people with more time to sit around farming NPCs. Somebody without all that time to devote is not going to like logging in to find that their Apocalypse battleship might as well be an Ibis compared to other people's battleships because they've put in 3000 hours shooting at NPCs.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Daesdemona
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Posted - 2003.09.17 12:36:00 -
[4]
 Quote:
Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 17/09/2003 12:32:13
I think players who have been in the game longer already have enough of an advantage with the head start on skill training - a gap which will NEVER be bridged by new players.
I would rather not see the gap between the new and the old made larger by yet another bonus for "in game time."
The beauty of EVE is you don't need to play for 10 hours a day to be competetitive. This would just play into the hands of people with more time to sit around farming NPCs. Somebody without all that time to devote is not going to like logging in to find that their Apocalypse battleship might as well be an Ibis compared to other people's battleships because they've put in 3000 hours shooting at NPCs.
I think the idea has value, just the ships tweaking should be capped to a certain extent, as there is only so much you can get familiar with on a vessel that can be an advantage.
In response to the quote above:
Skill training so-called "GAP" will get more and more insignificant as the game ages and specialization in higher level skills gets very specific.
The actual problem I have with this is that people that play a lot actually already have this so called "ship experience" in that they are better at playing through their personal experience.
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Bart: "Do you even have a job any more?"
Homer: "I think its obvious that I Don't"
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.17 12:41:00 -
[5]
Quote:
The actual problem I have with this is that people that play a lot actually already have this so called "ship experience" in that they are better at playing through their personal experience.
Precisely! This should be the real benefit of spending time hunting NPCs and other PCs. Not some artificial advancement.
Unless the advancement was VERY limited this is a bad idea. If you want to spend hours every day hunting NPCs for "experience" I say go play EverQuest or something of the sort. Many players like EVE because it LACKS this aspect entirely.
Quote:
Skill training so-called "GAP" will get more and more insignificant as the game ages and specialization in higher level skills gets very specific.
Specialization does not slow the gap. New players will eventually have to specialize as well. This gap will not get smaller until people begin to reach the point where they have nothing whatsoever to train - and that should take years.
Don't get me wrong, I see what you're saying - new players can definitely compete. But they will never "catch up" as far as skill points/training levels are concerned. At least not for a VERY long time.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Bogusheadbox
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Posted - 2003.09.17 12:44:00 -
[6]
I think it is a great idea. The devs should take note. hopefully.
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Jerrico Delen
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Posted - 2003.09.17 12:47:00 -
[7]
It's a fantastic idea in theory, but in practice it would probably be too unbalancing in a game where it is already hard for new players to become 'competitive'.
========================================
Leodis Enteprises Corporation
Small skilled UK based corp, apply if you think you have what it takes. |
Svarun
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Posted - 2003.09.17 13:09:00 -
[8]
The intention behind this proposal is, of course, not to make new players lag even more behind experienced ones. I myself am very new (not even a month) and this was just something that would in my oppinion spice up the experience.
The creation of ship experience system itself woulf certainly have to be thought out and debated thoroughly. Some caps would have to be installed, afterall we dont want godly players running around like in AC/Diablo. Also it would have to be decided which aspects would get raised and to which extent. The more common ones, like ROF/speed/agility that we can already improve through skills would maybe add just a small margin, equal to one additional skill level (6)... On the other hand, it would be interesting to have some aspects/abilities which could only be improved through performing certain tasks, although that is maybe pushing it too far.
It is true, that such system would be able to seriously unbalance the game, that it would be a pain in the ass to concieve/program, that some people would be unhappy with it (like there ever was a single thing which all of MMORPG community unitedly praised)... But I think, that the final result would be worth it!
Lets try to put our personal interest behind for once and have a serious debate about something that could enrich the gaming experience for the whole community.
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Temerlyn
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Posted - 2003.09.17 13:27:00 -
[9]
The idea has value if you also add wear and tear on the ships as well.
When ships get hull/armour/internal damage they never fully repair back to max looseing a little bit of there maximum ability.
Internal damage needs to be implemented as well, when internal systems suffer to much damage they need to go offline, also get reduced in quality for damage.
Id realy love to see battle scarred ships out there that even visably show the botch job repairs.
Another idea i think could of been and should of been introduced but its to late now is a skill tree for ship flying.
What i mean is instead of Gallante frigate, cruiser, BS etc
How about Gallante light industrial, medium indy large indy etc. Gallante combat frigate, combat cruiser, combat BS. Gallante science frigate, science cruiser etc. Gallante mining frigate etc etc.
Indy is easy to understand, frigate size indy's could do from 500-1000 cargo but be speedy and agile. Be fantastic as missile/ammo haulers. Medium size indy's would cover the current stock. Large indys can be massive industrials with 10-20k cargo monstrocities. This could also be a precursor for a titan.
Combat is pretty self explanatory, minmater say Rifter, breacher and vigil could be classed as combat, stabber/rupture for combat cruisers, and the 2 BS's as well thats currently available.
Minging ships are just the current stock with a few different design concepts, the minmater breacher has a 5% mining yield per laser. Fantastic mining ship. Make a cruiser that can have 4-5 turrets, high cpu, little power, not many low or medium slots. This would work the same for battleship sized mining ships, these ships are designed as pure strip mining ships that can even mount specialized mining equipment.
Science vessels would need a whole new concept added to the game that doesn't exist. Science characters can fly around to gather research. Useing scanners and other equipment they should be able to gather research points to go towards researcing new BP's etc. In line science ships have special modules designed for research gathering etc and the ships get better as they go along.
This should be in ideas lab, but its to late to implement such an idea.
p.s its a long DT
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Revel
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Posted - 2003.09.17 13:47:00 -
[10]
I think the original idea is excellent.
Maybe the skills can degrade slightly over time. For instance, if you spend all your time chasing down NPCs and fighting then the 'ships ability' in battle situations will improve to a high standard. However, if the player then works on hauling then the ships efficiency, speed etc can increase but as time NOT battling is taken with other pursuits the combat abilities degrade slowly back to their original standard. In a sense, the crew becomes 'rusty'.
This would allow a bonus for those who DO put their time into the game and taking the risks to go out there and get into battles, mine dangerous areas, etc compared to those who can just do basic, easy stuff and just let their skills increase day to day with minimal effort or challenge. But it wouldn't allow a vast gap in ship abilities to develop - so you won't end up with a player with a great huge hulking battleship with every ability at the best of the best annoying everyone. A player would have to put the time and effort in to deserve the added extras.
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3L3KTR4
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Posted - 2003.09.17 13:54:00 -
[11]
Edited by: 3L3KTR4 on 17/09/2003 13:56:12
Quote:
Quote:
The actual problem I have with this is that people that play a lot actually already have this so called "ship experience" in that they are better at playing through their personal experience.
Precisely! This should be the real benefit of spending time hunting NPCs and other PCs. Not some artificial advancement.
Unless the advancement was VERY limited this is a bad idea. If you want to spend hours every day hunting NPCs for "experience" I say go play EverQuest or something of the sort. Many players like EVE because it LACKS this aspect entirely.
Quote:
Skill training so-called "GAP" will get more and more insignificant as the game ages and specialization in higher level skills gets very specific.
Specialization does not slow the gap. New players will eventually have to specialize as well. This gap will not get smaller until people begin to reach the point where they have nothing whatsoever to train - and that should take years.
Don't get me wrong, I see what you're saying - new players can definitely compete. But they will never "catch up" as far as skill points/training levels are concerned. At least not for a VERY long time.
Well think of it this way, older players are ahead of lets say people who started today. so lets say u have 3-4mill skill points. now lets say they even have 1mill(the new ones). u at 3mill. well thats 300% better.
Now 1 year passes. u are at 20mill skill points they are at 18mill. hmm... thats like 12%better. Gap closed. ty
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arutha
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Posted - 2003.09.17 13:56:00 -
[12]
outstanding idea ship experiance - those little dudes in your ship really play no part in the game up till now - and they should 8)
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Jojin
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Posted - 2003.09.17 13:59:00 -
[13]
I like the idea. To prevent any sort of major balancing issue, the ships could evolve just from a visible standpoint. For instance, the experience from travel (trading), fighting or mining would start to pool and as levels are reached the vessel model changes. Fighting ships may start to look more war torn, mining ships get dirty, travel ships look more stream lined.
This may not give any advantages, but it would be a nice way to individualize oneself from others. Think of a cruiser pulling up with battle scars and hundreds of little frigate images with lines drawn through them recounting the battles won. While at the same time someone else pulls up with a freshly built ship. It would be obvious which ship is the veteran.
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2003.09.17 14:13:00 -
[14]
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 17/09/2003 14:15:09
Ship experience that led to small percentage bonuses (increments of 1 or 2%) in selected areas such as
- damage
- speed
- cargo hold
- capacitor
- armour
- shields
... and the list goes on - would be a FANTASTIC development in EVE that would increase the love of and pride in one's possessions.
The method of determining when to award these extra's could be based on - flying time
- distance travelled
- combat prowess
[/
- for example.
MOOrovingian  "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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Cruniac
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Posted - 2003.09.17 14:15:00 -
[15]
Brilliant idea!
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.17 14:47:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 17/09/2003 14:49:06
Quote:
Lets try to put our personal interest behind for once and have a serious debate about something that could enrich the gaming experience for the whole community.
I won't ask what makes you think my personal interests have anything to do with opposing this idea.
The fact of the matter, and the driving force behind my opposition to this idea, is that many players fell in love with EVE because it lacks the aspect of so many other MMORPGS which basically amounts to "do boring repetitive action for x hours to get your cookie - x gets bigger for each new cookie."
EVE's skill system allows players who do not have massive amounts of time to devote to the game to continue to make headway and remain competetive in the game. It overcomes the dichotomy of players that so many other MMORPGs see - a group of players who play 10-12+ hours per day and are super/uber/godlike and "casual" players who can only devote a few hours every couple days. EVE's system levels the playing field a bit and that's a GOOD thing.
So, unless this "advancement" was severely limited or purely superficial (as suggested by previous poster) - then I would be totally against it. Adding a "devote a bunch of time to get better" aspect to EVE would remove one the great things which makes it stand above and beyond other games like EverQuest or DAoC
I say leave EVE where it is instead of bringing it back down to the levels of the other games.
[Edit - Jojin suggested the superficial changes to ships. This I could support as it would be a way to "show off" your experience and set you apart from other pilots without harming the balance that EVE's skill advancement system strikes.]
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Alpha Centauri
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Posted - 2003.09.17 14:51:00 -
[17]
That is a good idea, like experience points i guess.
Shame this game is really driven by skills on a timer, all the player earned skills and inititiave driven actions get nerfed.
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.17 14:52:00 -
[18]
Quote:
like experience points i guess.
Exactly. And exactly why this idea is terrible for EVE. 
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Arud
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Posted - 2003.09.17 14:53:00 -
[19]
bump for the best idea from a player I have ever seen :D
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Fiest
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Posted - 2003.09.17 14:55:00 -
[20]
Stick this in the "ideas" thread.
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Svarun
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Posted - 2003.09.17 14:59:00 -
[21]
Quote:
I think the original idea is excellent.
Maybe the skills can degrade slightly over time. For instance, if you spend all your time chasing down NPCs and fighting then the 'ships ability' in battle situations will improve to a high standard. However, if the player then works on hauling then the ships efficiency, speed etc can increase but as time NOT battling is taken with other pursuits the combat abilities degrade slowly back to their original standard. In a sense, the crew becomes 'rusty'.
I really like the sound of this. Here is an evolvement of the idea - add a pool of "ship experience points" and set its size to a max of, lets say, 1000. When you use your vessel in different roles, a set of predeterminated aspects/abilities starts to improve by drawing points from the pool. Obviously, the pool will get empty once forbidding anyone to become too powerfull. Then add an inactivity timer that will start to return points to pool if the ship is not used for same roles anymore. Those returned points can then be reapplied to presently active abbilities.
This way, we kill 3 flies with one stroke - prevent people from becoming too powerfull by introducing a cap, insure that they must be playing actively to maintain the ship in top shape and also enable players to enhance ship in different areas as they progress through EVE (ie, at start you are a miner and hauler and your ship is profficient at that, later you want to start fighting so your abilities in mining/whatever slowly degrade and your combat ones get better).
, by assigning points from the pool to them. As the ship/crew gets more experienced, the pool starts to
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PERCYDAMAN
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Posted - 2003.09.17 15:01:00 -
[22]
how about a mouse over that indicates how many ships have been destroyed by said ship...say npc pirate and player alike.
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Vilar Solamnus
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Posted - 2003.09.17 15:01:00 -
[23]
Quote:
outstanding idea ship experiance - those little dudes in your ship really play no part in the game up till now - and they should 8)
Just for the record, there are no 'little dudes' in your ship...anyone that had bothered to read any of the story behind Eve would know that we all fly our ships by ourselves using Jovian technology given to the Caldari. Our pods are like the central nervous system for our ships, and we are suspended in the pods filled with goo, with the back of our heads plugged directly into our ship's mainframe, kindof Matrix style. The physical sensory deprivation from being covered in the goo allows us to 'feel' our ship, being one with it. That is why only our skills effect our ship's performance...we are the only people on the ship.
Vilar Solamnus
Director of Sales and Trade
Cornexant Inc.
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.17 15:05:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 17/09/2003 15:07:45
Quote:
is an evolvement of the idea - add a pool of "ship experience points" and set its size to a max of, lets say, 1000. When you use your vessel in different roles, a set of predeterminated aspects/abilities starts to improve by drawing points from the pool.
This sounds a little more reasonable. I like the idea of a "swinging scale" of performance enhancements which change based on how you use your ship. However, keeping these points "active" should not require hours and hours of active time.
The idea of "experience points" and gaining them indefinitely by repeitious actions such as destroying NPC pirates however I find repulsive. 
Real experience and opportunities to make ISK are reward enough for players who have more time to devote to the game. There's no need to throw them too many more bones compared to the "casual" players in my opinion.
Quote:
bump for the best idea from a player I have ever seen :D
For future reference there's no need to bump active discussions. They bump themselves so long as people are interested in adding useful posts to the conversation.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
arutha
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Posted - 2003.09.17 15:08:00 -
[25]
then why does it mention crew in the ship describtion on this very site - go check it out - im not saying your wrong but if you go too ship classes it mentions crew in the describtions 8)
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Svarun
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Posted - 2003.09.17 15:20:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Svarun on 17/09/2003 15:21:12
Quote:
I like the idea. To prevent any sort of major balancing issue, the ships could evolve just from a visible standpoint. For instance, the experience from travel (trading), fighting or mining would start to pool and as levels are reached the vessel model changes. Fighting ships may start to look more war torn, mining ships get dirty, travel ships look more stream lined.
This may not give any advantages, but it would be a nice way to individualize oneself from others. Think of a cruiser pulling up with battle scars and hundreds of little frigate images with lines drawn through them recounting the battles won. While at the same time someone else pulls up with a freshly built ship. It would be obvious which ship is the veteran.
I dont think this should be the only way in which ships change, but this is also an excellent proposal! Would add much needed variety to the looks of ships. If they put half the time in dynamic ship appearance altering system as they put in character creation process, Im sure we would get incredible results.
There is one thing to consider though - we all know loading times are terrible even with current set of predetermined models and textures for all ships. Imagine what would happen if they introduced such system without changing the net code in any way. Shudder!
Quote:
I won't ask what makes you think my personal interests have anything to do with opposing this idea.
Oh no, you misunderstood me! It was a general call to the community which could perhaps be separated with answers to some of your concerns more elegantly.
On the general: I can understand motives behind your questions, think we all put in a fair share of time bashing goblins/skeletons/whatever just to gain experience and we all agree that skill system in EVE is much much better. That is why I am firmly against changing it or even this idea of ship experience having as much impact to the game as main skill system. Just add it to spice things up, make players that want to invest more time get some reward but dont make it a deciding factor...
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Vilar Solamnus
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Posted - 2003.09.17 15:21:00 -
[27]
Because not every ship is PC controlled...apparently we're the only ones with the technology...also, the ships were created before the technology was given to us by the Jove, so at one point they did require crews...wait a minute...wtf am I doing filling in the holes of CCP's story? I'm not getting paid...I quit!
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Sabal Despana
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Posted - 2003.09.17 15:30:00 -
[28]
The idea is very good. But instead of experience, I think you should rather be able to "tweak" the ship and crew.. in stations, maybe set the ship to an optimal combat, mining or courier potential.. signifies that the engineers start playing around with the power systems, Scotty style (sorry for the Star Trek analogy). |
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