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Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
380
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 15:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
I propose that we should remove the artificial limit of max number of locked targets on hulls and just let the pilots skills determine this value instead. |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1448
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 15:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Why? I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Mr Doctor
Sex Machineguns Happy Cartel
92
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 15:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
Lets also remove the velocity cap on hulls and let our skill determine what speed the ships go.
Also, DPS and tank. |

Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
380
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 15:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mr Doctor wrote:Lets also remove the velocity cap on hulls and let our skill determine what speed the ships go.
Also, DPS and tank.
You're missing the point, they already do.
If you have a 400m/s ship your navigation skill will always provide you with up to 25% extra velocity. There is no case where the base velocity is 400m/s, but the ship hull cap is 440m/s, so taking your navigation skill over level 2 has no additional benefit.
With targeting management it doesn't work this way though. If you have targeting management 5 and advanced targeting management 5 you will always get defaulted to the max number of targets of the hull, unless you fit active targeters. I can't think of another skill that's like this.
And the reason of 'why' is that I trained the skill, I should get to use the skill for the value I trained. Instead of asking why, I cannot think of a reason why we shouldn't do this other than bitter vet "cuz it's change. *grumpy*" |

Batelle
HOMELE55
1882
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 15:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:I propose that we should remove the artificial limit of max number of locked targets on hulls and just let the pilots skills determine this value instead.
Not having every ship able to target 10 or more targets or whatever is a reasonable point of balance. I know it sucks that tengus can only target 5 things, but really, its ok. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |

Shpenat
Galactic Exploration and Mining Corporation The Obsidian Front
65
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 16:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
I can understand your point. The change would be that rather of having maximum number of locked targets we woud get minimum number of locked targets per hull and skills to extend it.
However there is a problem with current skills which adds 1 target per level. It is way too much. The maximum then would be 10 per ship. To make it reasonable they would have to remove the advanced version of this skill and have only one which adds 1 per level. So in the end you will end up with the nearly same number of possibly locked ships as we have now.
And that is by definition too much work for too little gain. |

Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
498
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 16:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Should we also change the number of hardpoints on every ship to be entirely skill based? I'd certainly train "Advanced Turret Hardpoint Management" to 5 if it let me have 10 guns on my frigates. Fleet Bookmarks New Gravimetric Sites Med Clones 2.0 |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2502
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 17:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote: unless you fit active targeters.
There's your solution. Problem solved.
In the future, if you want 'value for the skills you trained,' then fly ships that can take advantage of those skills.
I eagerly await your next thread, where you tell us that all ships should have their targeting range extended to 250km. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |

Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
380
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 17:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
There's a lot of e-toughguy in here, and so many of the arguments are fail.
If you have a ship with guns you're not checking to see if you're going to run up against an arbitrary damage cap to see if you get value from training your surgical strike skill. It works like that for every other skill that affects a ship; a ships profile is changed by any skill that affects a ship stat. Target management is the sole exception to this case, and I don't see any reason why.
The proposal is simple, the max number of targets your ship can lock is the standard 2 + (skill values). The only ship that this is a balancing point for, blap dreads in siege mode, are already accounted for because the siege module hard caps the targets despite the hull value.
And no one has really given a reason why other than restating that it's just that way, but I have yet to see any reason reason why. Probably because there's no reason why, but the e-toughguys have to naysay. |

Lephia DeGrande
The Scope Gallente Federation
254
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 18:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
One Question, what would Happen if we Limit the locks on one target.
Lets say, if 10 players can lock at the same Battleship but then every other player receive a fail message. |

Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
222
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 18:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:One Question, what would Happen if we Limit the locks on one target.
Lets say, if 10 players can lock at the same Battleship but then every other player receive a fail message.
Really? |

Anhenka
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
185
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 18:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:One Question, what would Happen if we Limit the locks on one target.
Lets say, if 10 players can lock at the same Battleship but then every other player receive a fail message.
Ahhh...um........what is.......
**** it, I'm out.
*Anhenka goes to go get two aspirin or a sixpack. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
240
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 18:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:One Question, what would Happen if we Limit the locks on one target.
Lets say, if 10 players can lock at the same Battleship but then every other player receive a fail message. you can kiss logi goodbye, and your ass. |

Lephia DeGrande
The Scope Gallente Federation
254
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 18:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
Hey use Sebos and ECM burst to recover the locks. ;-) |

Pew Terror
Green Associates
91
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 19:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ohh yay, is this a bad idea about targetting thread? :D
How about we remove all limits on how many targets you can lock, but you have to buy lock tokens. They are 10m3 and everytimeyou lock something it consumes a token. |

Anhenka
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
186
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 19:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Pew Terror wrote:Ohh yay, is this a bad idea about targetting thread? :D
How about we remove all limits on how many targets you can lock, but you have to buy lock tokens. They are 10m3 and everytimeyou lock something it consumes a token.
All hail the 3000 locking BattleIteron! |

Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
380
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 19:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
Pew Terror wrote:Ohh yay, is this a bad idea about targetting thread? :D
No, this is the thread where people that want to prove how e-tough they are tell everyone how bad an idea is without actually addressing the idea itself. Usually with poor spelling and grammar. |

Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1108
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 19:17:00 -
[18] - Quote
the number of targets is a point of balance, and sometimes designed around a role; like macks having 4 targets vs covetors 6, and combat ships having less targets than support ships.
another reason is to make target management about more than just skills. it seems trivial, but if the amount u can target is important to u, fit the mods and/or use the correct ships. or learn to unlock/relock faster.
OP, where u have criticised arguments against the idea u have yet to provide any reason why the game should remove this balancing factor. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |

Anhenka
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
187
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 19:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:Pew Terror wrote:Ohh yay, is this a bad idea about targetting thread? :D No, this is the thread where people that want to prove how e-tough they are tell everyone how bad an idea is without actually addressing the idea itself. Usually with poor spelling and grammar.
There were a few posts early on stating that the max number of lockable targets was a game design choice to provide bonuses or drawbacks to various ships.
That's really all there is to it. Nobody feels any huge need to argue about it beyond the statement of why it is as it is.
It's up to you as poster to give us reasons why your proposed changes would be of benefit to the game beyond "It boosts ships that can't lock 10 targets and I want to lock 10 targets with one" Not on the community to tell you why it's a bad idea, although we typically will do that anyway.
|

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
238
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 19:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
The skill is quite useful at 5 given you fly hulls that can lock 10 targets a lot(logi, marauder, recon) and can make the extra 2 lock slots available to you by adding a signal amplifier or auto targeter. It is quite niche to bring it to 5, but it gives you a lot more ease and performance for some roles(cap logi for incursions or a remote rep marauder for example), at the cost of one low or utility high slots you get the additional locks your skill provides on the hull and can reduce the amount of target switching(because even 10 can be quite limited at times).
Like a lot of advanced logistic and recon skills it is quite niche but can be very useful to have if you fly logi on a daily basis for example, got everything maxed out and become a bit more flexible with the fitting and more proficient with the role. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2507
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 19:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote: No, this is the thread where people that want to prove how e-tough they are tell everyone how bad an idea is without actually addressing the idea itself.
The idea has been addressed: It's bad, and has little to no merit.
The limit on max locked targets on a given hull is a balance point. If you want to lock more targets with a particular hull, you are intended to have to make tradeoffs by fitting active targeting mods or signal amps. That is the purpose of the limitation.
The only person throwing around 'e-tough' so far has been you. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |

Anhenka
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
187
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 19:40:00 -
[22] - Quote
The Djego wrote:The skill is quite useful at 5 given you fly hulls that can lock 10 targets a lot(logi, marauder, recon) and can make the extra 2 lock slots available to you by adding a signal amplifier or auto targeter. It is quite niche to bring it to 5, but it gives you a lot more ease and performance for some roles(cap logi for incursions or a remote rep marauder for example), at the cost of one low or utility high slots you get the additional locks your skill provides on the hull and can reduce the amount of target switching(because even 10 can be quite limited at times).
Like a lot of advanced logistic and recon skills it is quite niche but can be very useful to have if you fly logi on a daily basis for example, got everything maxed out and become a bit more flexible with the fitting and more proficient with the role.
As a note, Target Management V and Advanced Target Management IV adds a total of 9 lockable targets onto the base of (2 I think?), getting you to the natural 10 slot cap of any ship in the game I know of, all at a total cost of less than 400k SP, since Target Management is a 1x skill and Advanced Target Management is only a 3x that you need to take to lv 3 or 4. |

Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
380
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 20:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:The only person throwing around 'e-tough' so far has been you.
I disagree with your stance that you are not trying to be e-tough, as this is your previous post.
Domanique Altares wrote:Ersahi Kir wrote: unless you fit active targeters. There's your solution. Problem solved. In the future, if you want 'value for the skills you trained,' then fly ships that can take advantage of those skills. I eagerly await your next thread, where you tell us that all ships should have their targeting range extended to 250km.
The definition of professionalism. 
But you actually provided an argument, although I don't see much substance in it.
Domanique Altares wrote:Ersahi Kir wrote: No, this is the thread where people that want to prove how e-tough they are tell everyone how bad an idea is without actually addressing the idea itself.
The idea has been addressed: It's bad, and has little to no merit. The limit on max locked targets on a given hull is a balance point. If you want to lock more targets with a particular hull, you are intended to have to make tradeoffs by fitting active targeting mods or signal amps. That is the purpose of the limitation.
In my mind there are two merits to making this change. First off is that it changes how this one isolated skill works to be consistent with other skills that affect ship attributes. The second is that number of locked targets is rarely, if ever, a 'balancing point.' The ships where this would be a balancing point have naturally high number of maxed targets, specifically logistics ships. Outside of logistics ships and sieged blap dreads, which have already been covered, this is a skill of convenience. I would welcome an actual argument as to why a mining barge, frigate, battleship, or titan locking up to 12 targets is a 'balancing point.' Your argument that this is a developer calculated, metric backed balancing tool like armor or power-grid is dubious. I would guess that the devs set it a long time ago based on a gut feeling, and if they actually sat down and considered why it was done now they would struggle to find a reason based firmly on PvP balance. |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2509
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 20:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:I would welcome an actual argument as to why a mining barge, frigate, battleship, or titan locking up to 12 targets is a 'balancing point.'
You forgot to include your noctis in that list.
You also forgot to include what the requisite slots are used for. This is where the tradeoff happens.
Do you want to use Auto Targets? Yes.
Does your ship have a utility high? Yes. Want more targets? Yes. Give up unbonused DPS or neuting/nosing/cloaking capability.
Does your ship have a utility high? No. Give up bonused DPS/mining yield/reps to lock more things.
Do you want to use signal amps instead? Yes.
Choose one commonly buffed stat to not buff:
Damage.
Tank.
Yield.
Speed.
Agility. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |

Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
380
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 21:02:00 -
[25] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Ersahi Kir wrote:I would welcome an actual argument as to why a mining barge, frigate, battleship, or titan locking up to 12 targets is a 'balancing point.' You forgot to include your noctis in that list. You also forgot to include what the requisite slots are used for. This is where the tradeoff happens. Do you want to use Auto Targets? Yes. Does your ship have a utility high? Yes. Want more targets? Yes. Give up unbonused DPS or neuting/nosing/cloaking capability. Does your ship have a utility high? No. Give up bonused DPS/mining yield/reps to lock more things. Do you want to use signal amps instead? Yes. Choose one commonly buffed stat to not buff: Damage. Tank. Yield. Speed. Agility.
That brings us full circle in the argument back to this is the only skill that affects a ships attributes that doesn't always get the full effect. From your examples you get the full potency of a speed skill, you don't get 2 or 3 levels of you navigation skill and then fit another mod to get the full level 5 potency. You fit a gun and get all your gunnery skills, you don't get level 4 potency and then use a utility high to get that level 5 skill potency. You get the full bonus of tank skills all the time, you don't need to fit a shield recharger mod to get your shield management skill to work to full effect.
But when it comes to targeting you have to fit additional mods to a ship to be able to take advantage of advanced targeting management 5. At least ships that aren't carriers in triage. |

Chihiro Chugakusei
Traveler's accomodation
32
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 23:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
I see why you don't like the system, but I would think of the skill differently. Instead it is set up so that if you have the appropriate gear you can use more of your skill level. The skill level allows you to extend your targeting in special circumstances.
This might be baloney, I don't know. I honestly don't understand whats happening with the cap on targets. Could there be a better system? Sure. Will there be one? I don't think that there is enough incentive, other than that it would streamline things somewhat.
Keep it up, +1 |
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