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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3192
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 19:23:00 -
[91] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:Pilot Stitcher is correct: the Jove have been active in the recent past, and so they remain a threat and a legitimate target for hatred and aggression.
Like him, however, I am puzzled by the rather sudden silence.
Hey, don't put words in my mouth.
1: the Amarr attacked the Jove, not the other way round, and this was a long time ago. Even if they ARE harbouring a grudge, the absolute worst retaliation they've thrown your way so far has been less than a lurking cloaker in your home system. They're either playing a game so long, intricate and patient that you won't ever see it coming when they do strike, and certainly won't be able to stop it... or else they're not actually an active threat to the Empire.
2: I'm not "puzzled" by a "sudden silence" on their part at all - this isn't even yet the longest interval of no-contact our civilizations have had with the Jove. How long has it been since we last heard from them? Eight, nine years? Given that the preceding centuries included a couple of consecutive decades of silence between occasions when they deigned to acknowledge us lesser beings, I'm neither surprised nor puzzled by their current behaviour.
They've historically been opaque, silent and distant: to my knowledge they have appeared at a grand total of one meeting of the CONCORD bureau.
No, what puzzles me is that so many pilots seem to be not only convinced of, but authorities on the Jovians' supposed extinction. Which to me seems somewhat premature. If you had a distant cousin who for years you'd only ever spoken to on birthdays and the new year, it'd be a bit premature to break out the mourning clothes and tell people how they were tragically cut short in their prime just because you've not heard from them this month.
I'm not claiming to know for a fact that they aren't extinct, it's just that people seem to have pulled this extinction conclusion out of their gluteal cleft and are now bandying it around as if it were common knowledge and established fact. That's what puzzles me.
An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Eran Mintor
Esoteric Philosophy
476
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Posted - 2014.02.26 19:48:00 -
[92] - Quote
Interesting how there's not one mention of the words slavery or enslavement in the Scriptures yet everyone blames the religion, and not the interpretation offered by clergy....
Silly me to think people actually bother to read.
-Eran |
Pontianak Sythaeryn
Bottle Distribution Ops Center
131
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 20:02:00 -
[93] - Quote
Eran Mintor wrote:Interesting how there's not one mention of the words slavery or enslavement in the Scriptures yet everyone blames the religion, and not the interpretation offered by clergy....
Silly me to think people actually bother to read.
-Eran
I understand your point... but at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. When your own people use your own religion to justify slavery, whether it's in the scriptures or not, then people will grow to hate the religion, the slavery, AND the Amarr as a people. It doesn't help that in the scriptures it does say to go forth and conquer others, and that the Amarr are "his Chosen" etc etc. |
Eran Mintor
Esoteric Philosophy
481
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 20:09:00 -
[94] - Quote
It also does not say conquer "others" and is quite vague to what it means when it states "Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." The common assumption is that it means people, but it could be interpreted in a myriad of different ways.
Hate the religion all you want, I really care not. At least understand that which you hate, that's all I ask. The people don't deserve to be hated in my humble opinion. I cannot blame a child for being born into a society, nor can I blame a child for being born into poverty or born handicapped.
-Eran |
Pontianak Sythaeryn
Bottle Distribution Ops Center
131
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 20:28:00 -
[95] - Quote
Eran Mintor wrote:It also does not say conquer "others" and is quite vague to what it means when it states "Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." The common assumption is that it means people, but it could be interpreted in a myriad of different ways.
Hate the religion all you want, I really care not. At least understand that which you hate, that's all I ask. The people don't deserve to be hated in my humble opinion. I cannot blame a child for being born into a society, nor can I blame a child for being born into poverty or born handicapped.
-Eran
You are absolutely right Eran, it could mean a number of different things. Like Plants, or Rocks. Clearly this other pages don't shed light on this subject.
"So the Lord sent forth the Chosen, to bring forth the light of faith And those who embrace his love Shall be saved by his grace For we are his shepherds in the darkness His Angels of Mercy. But those who turn away from his light, And reject his true word Shall be struck down by his wrath For we are his retribution incarnate His Angels of Vengeance" - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 4:45
So who are the chosen? Who would turn away?
"Our Lord visited his flock and saw that all was not good. Blasphemy and heresy ruled the land. The Lord punished the sinners and drowned them in their own blood. But the people of Amarr lived righteously and in fear of God. Thus they were saved and became God's chosen." - The Scriptures, Book II 2:1
Ah I see! The Amarr are the Chosen! That makes "those who turn away from his light" to be.... Trees! Not people, Trees! Conquer the trees Amarr, the trees!
And you misunderstand me dear sir. I don't hate the religion. I don't believe in it, but I don't hate it. I hate slavery and I fully admit that. Hating children? Please, lets not turn this into something it isn't. |
Eran Mintor
Esoteric Philosophy
483
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 21:17:00 -
[96] - Quote
I never said you hated children. It was an example to illustrate a point, one I think you purposefully ignored.
You cannot choose the circumstances you're born into. You don't get to decide if you're short or handsome or smart or poor. You don't decide if you're born into a royal family or born a slave. Opportunities may arise in the future where you have choices to change some of the circumstances you live in, but not all get these chances. Those who do must understand the consequences that come with it. Going against a society that bred and raised you will come with great hardships for yourself, but more importantly for your family. Not every choice that is seen as right or just by outsiders is so black and white, and sometimes these choices are not in the best interest of your family and survival. The Nefantar are a great example of this.
Perhaps you should know I speak on these matters from personal experience.
In regards to your comments on the Scriptures, I would like to believe you're more imaginative than that. The Scriptures could very well be refering to the spiritual essence that God gave Man when it says, "reclaim that which I have given." If this is one way to interpert the Scriptures, one could go on to say that the tools of this conquest and reclaiming aren't shackles or swords, but preachers and teachers. Slavery, again, is not explicity condoned in the Scriptures. To reclaim spiritual essence of Man, one would require education on matters of life. Simply being a slave, contrary to what the village idiot Nauplius believes, does not provide any such education of the spirit. A better understanding of the religion and underlying values will help you fight slavery, trust me on that.
-Eran |
Pontianak Sythaeryn
Bottle Distribution Ops Center
131
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 22:04:00 -
[97] - Quote
Eran Mintor wrote:In regards to your comments on the Scriptures, I would like to believe you're more imaginative than that. The Scriptures could very well be refering to the spiritual essence that God gave Man when it says, "reclaim that which I have given." If this is one way to interpert the Scriptures, one could go on to say that the tools of this conquest and reclaiming aren't shackles or swords, but preachers and teachers. Slavery, again, is not explicity condoned in the Scriptures. To reclaim spiritual essence of Man, one would require education on matters of life. Simply being a slave, contrary to what the village idiot Nauplius believes, does not provide any such education of the spirit. A better understanding of the religion and underlying values will help you fight slavery, trust me on that.
-Eran
I actually do get what you are saying Sir Mintor. Over the past few days, I've gotten the feeling that yourself, and Lord Draconis are a bit... different in some of views on this, and they are steps I can "cautiously" agree with. But it doesn't change the fact that many many Amarr don't feel the way you both do, and that even the clergy seem to differ vastly in their opinions on this. When such things such as that are the way they are, it's going to shape outsiders opinions of in a negative light. To deny this is just closing your eyes to what is happening around you.
People are scared, not directly of Amarrian religion, but of being taken and forced into servitude over something they don't even believe in. They are afraid of being pumped full of a disease, brain washed, beaten within an inch of their lives, etc etc. And if you somehow find yourself around a person such as Nauplius or others like him (and their are plenty in the Empire like him) then those fears are very very real. Telling others that they need to read the scripture doesn't change that fact.
*sighs* This actually reminds me of my own Gallente. Because of the whole Caldari situation, people look at us in a negative light as well. I can't blame them, the Federation hasn't been perfect by any means. Of course, no empire is innocent either. Power itself is a corrupting influence it seems on humanity. |
Eran Mintor
Esoteric Philosophy
489
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 22:38:00 -
[98] - Quote
I do not deny the Amarr have earned their harsh reputation. Far from it. You kill someone and you'll be labeled a killer and, even if the killers family had no part in it, I would certainly be cautious around the family should they continue supporting the killer. This is a natural paranoia and we can witness that among all four empires as they scorn each other and try to keep a "safe distance".
Certainly the viewpoints I hold on the Amarr faith are far from the commonly accepted interpretation. I wish to note at this point I do not follow the Amarr faith but am merely a scholar with interest in the many faiths of New Eden. With this said, my distance from their faith is what allows my different interpretations. The Theology Council is the leading authority on all religious matters, including interpretation, in the Empire. The process of changing the accepted interpretations is not an easy nor quick undertaking. This is why I believe patience is required in order for change to be enabled.
Like the Amarrian belief that spiritual enlightenment comes through generations of service and dedication, so too does change in the Empire require time. If you plant the seeds however, then they will grow. A tree properly nurtured will dwarf the older diseased trees around it. This analogy illustrates why I think it's important to support Holders such as Lord Draconis, as his success will pave the way for a growing trend. He is not the first of this trend either.
Simply demanding change does not bring it about. Understanding the belief system will help open up solutions to bring about change, and this is why it's important for those against slavery to read the Scriptures. As I stated earlier, the Scriptures do not command slavery, and the more who understand that in the Empire, the more roots you spread. A tall tree needs strong roots or it will topple from the lightest gust.
Thank you for the civil discussion thus far.
-Eran
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Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
552
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 22:46:00 -
[99] - Quote
Bravo Eran. Well said on all points. |
Pontianak Sythaeryn
Bottle Distribution Ops Center
131
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 23:04:00 -
[100] - Quote
Eran Mintor wrote:so too does change in the Empire require time. If you plant the seeds however, then they will grow. A tree properly nurtured will dwarf the older diseased trees around it. This analogy illustrates why I think it's important to support Holders such as Lord Draconis, as his success will pave the way for a growing trend. He is not the first of this trend either.
Simply demanding change does not bring it about. Understanding the belief system will help open up solutions to bring about change, and this is why it's important for those against slavery to read the Scriptures. As I stated earlier, the Scriptures do not command slavery, and the more who understand that in the Empire, the more roots you spread. A tall tree needs strong roots or it will topple from the lightest gust.
Thank you for the civil discussion thus far.
-Eran
My concern is only this, as somebody that also knows about these seeds and trees.
A new tree is most vulnerable to those bigger and more established trees around it. Also it is more vulnerable to the animals that would eat it. What you are talking about, is changing the way the Amarr view their entire theology, this is not an easy task by any means and if those such as Lord Draconis are truly as you say... then they are also the most vulnerable to those that would see this effort squashed to keep things as they are. What is being done to keep the new tree from being infected by it's neighbors? |
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Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
553
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 23:14:00 -
[101] - Quote
Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:My concern is only this, as somebody that also knows about these seeds and trees.
A new tree is most vulnerable to those bigger and more established trees around it. Also it is more vulnerable to the animals that would eat it. What you are talking about, is changing the way the Amarr view their entire theology, this is not an easy task by any means and if those such as Lord Draconis are truly as you say... then they are also the most vulnerable to those that would see this effort squashed to keep things as they are. What is being done to keep the new tree from being infected by it's neighbors?
That may be true, but that is also entirely an Amarrian matter. No outside force will be able to help these trees; in fact, they hinder them. The more wars there are on the borders of the Empire, the more terrorists in its heart, and the more hatred and fear grips the Empire the more they strangle voices for peace and understanding. The only way the Empire will change is while it is at peace, as Heideran's rule thoroughly proved.
Every time a Minmatar fires an autocannon round at an Amarrian ship, they drive a nail into both our coffins. |
Nauplius
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
101
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 00:21:00 -
[102] - Quote
Mekioth Sarum wrote: "War is not the dreadful end to all things as mankind fears. Conflict brings balance to nature as it adapts, mutates, and transforms itself into something stronger than before. Mankind is the master of nature because we can choose those mutations on our own accord. We can accelerate the inevitable dominance of a species. Through war, we can make ourselves stronger at the time and place of our choosing. War is not hell, far from it. War is beautiful. War is divine."
Time was when someone would quote the above and Amarrians on the IGS would rise and applause. Now we hand our heads in shame. What have we become? |
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
553
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 00:26:00 -
[103] - Quote
Those words are exquisitely true, Nauplius, but our divine conflict need not be with the Matari any longer. Not at this time, at least. The most important war to fight right now is with our own ideas and which will be best to lead us into the comming ages. Heideran's legacy must live on. |
Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative
213
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 01:36:00 -
[104] - Quote
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:Those words are exquisitely true, Nauplius, but our divine conflict need not be with the Matari any longer. Not at this time, at least. The most important war to fight right now is with our own ideas and which will be best to lead us into the comming ages. Heideran's legacy must live on. A man who stands by his mistakes is proud. A man who acknowledges them is humble. A man who can do both, learning from them, is wise. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
899
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 06:07:00 -
[105] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:
As the emotion reaches its height, lifelike Jovian effigies are tossed into the crowd of slaves to be ripped apart. Should Jove slaves ever become available, these effigies will be replaced with live Jovians, and these shall suffer the same fate as the effigies. Interesting response you are predicting. But I don't think you would get it from slaves other, than of minmatar origin.
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Eran Mintor
Esoteric Philosophy
493
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 06:11:00 -
[106] - Quote
Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote: My concern is only this, as somebody that also knows about these seeds and trees.
A new tree is most vulnerable to those bigger and more established trees around it. Also it is more vulnerable to the animals that would eat it. What you are talking about, is changing the way the Amarr view their entire theology, this is not an easy task by any means and if those such as Lord Draconis are truly as you say... then they are also the most vulnerable to those that would see this effort squashed to keep things as they are. What is being done to keep the new tree from being infected by it's neighbors?
No doubt, those on the fringes of society are most at risk of retaliation and silencing. There can be no guarantee for their safety sadly, and for me to give any would be pointless lying. However, that which is worth fighting for is worth suffering, and even dying for. There are women and men of good character who make these sacrifices despite the risk. The best we can do is support them where possible and let them know they are valued.
No it's not much, but for some it's more than enough.
-Eran |
Anyanka Funk
Neo-Sani
55
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 08:21:00 -
[107] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:I am still wondering how such an obvious Blood Raider managed to con his way into the 24th?
Blood Raider would simply skin the slave, bleed it, set it on fire, and consume the savory body. Thus purifying the miserable soul and getting that much closer in our graces to the Red God
anyankafunk.tumblr.com |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3198
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 14:33:00 -
[108] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:Mekioth Sarum wrote: "War is not the dreadful end to all things as mankind fears. Conflict brings balance to nature as it adapts, mutates, and transforms itself into something stronger than before. Mankind is the master of nature because we can choose those mutations on our own accord. We can accelerate the inevitable dominance of a species. Through war, we can make ourselves stronger at the time and place of our choosing. War is not hell, far from it. War is beautiful. War is divine."
Time was when someone would quote the above and Amarrians on the IGS would rise and applause. Now we hang our heads in shame. What have we become?
Marginally more sane? An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Pontianak Sythaeryn
Bottle Distribution Ops Center
136
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 16:55:00 -
[109] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Nauplius wrote:Mekioth Sarum wrote: "War is not the dreadful end to all things as mankind fears. Conflict brings balance to nature as it adapts, mutates, and transforms itself into something stronger than before. Mankind is the master of nature because we can choose those mutations on our own accord. We can accelerate the inevitable dominance of a species. Through war, we can make ourselves stronger at the time and place of our choosing. War is not hell, far from it. War is beautiful. War is divine."
Time was when someone would quote the above and Amarrians on the IGS would rise and applause. Now we hang our heads in shame. What have we become? You've become marginally more sane.
Has he? I think he is commenting on the fact that he is disappointed that the Amarr hold their head in shame now for things that they should be glorifying war for. |
Anabella Rella
Gradient
1523
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 16:59:00 -
[110] - Quote
I continue to hear imperial supporters and apologists tell us to, "wait and be patient; change comes slowly in the empire". I ask them just how long are we supposed to wait? If your kin were kidnapped and being held in harsh bondage how patient would you be? How long would you be willing to wait before attempting to take action to free them? Furthermore, what if the kidnappers stated plainly that they planned to continue their campaign of kidnapping and enslavement until you, your family, everyone you've ever known and all mankind are under their control?
It's laudable that a very small minority of slavers actually treat their "property" as valuable and do not beat them, fill them with a deadly virus, provide them with food, shelter and attend to their medical needs. However, at the end of the day, these so-called progressives still hold fellow human beings as property, fit to treat as they feel, limiting their inherent freedoms and rights and forcing them to accept a foreign religion and culture.
I assume we're supposed to be grateful that a few in the empire still have some small bit of human decency, is that it? When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around. |
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3201
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 17:31:00 -
[111] - Quote
Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:Stitcher wrote:You've become marginally more sane. Has he? I think he is commenting on the fact that he is disappointed that the Amarr hold their head in shame now for things that they should be glorifying war for.
Please read the rest of what I posted.
An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Pontianak Sythaeryn
Bottle Distribution Ops Center
137
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 17:44:00 -
[112] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:Stitcher wrote:You've become marginally more sane. Has he? I think he is commenting on the fact that he is disappointed that the Amarr hold their head in shame now for things that they should be glorifying war for. Please read the rest of what I posted.
Oppsies, wasn't that I didn't read it, but had to re-read it to fully grasp it. I R Sm3rt! |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
3285
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 17:56:00 -
[113] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:I continue to hear imperial supporters and apologists tell us to, "wait and be patient; change comes slowly in the empire". I ask them just how long are we supposed to wait? If your kin were kidnapped and being held in harsh bondage how patient would you be? How long would you be willing to wait before attempting to take action to free them? Furthermore, what if the kidnappers stated plainly that they planned to continue their campaign of kidnapping and enslavement until you, your family, everyone you've ever known and all mankind are under their control?
It's laudable that a very small minority of slavers actually treat their "property" as valuable and do not beat them, fill them with a deadly virus, provide them with food, shelter and attend to their medical needs. However, at the end of the day, these so-called progressives still hold fellow human beings as property, fit to treat as they feel, limiting their inherent freedoms and rights and forcing them to accept a foreign religion and culture.
I assume we're supposed to be grateful that a few in the empire still have some small bit of human decency, is that it?
Not to detract from the rest of your statement, but I didn't realise you had family in slavery? |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
485
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 18:40:00 -
[114] - Quote
As an Amarr lady, I can exclusively reveal, that we are taught how to use our slave-beating sticks at school.
For the final year exams, you have to demonstrate the correct posture and form for beating a slave to death with the correct sticks. It's a multiple choice exam, there are 4 different sticks to choose, only one of them is the right one. And there are several different ethnicities of slave to beat, you have to demonstrate the correct form for beating all of them.
It's quite a rigorous and gruelling exam, really. |
Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
140
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 19:34:00 -
[115] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:As an Amarr lady, I can exclusively reveal, that we are taught how to use our slave-beating sticks at school.
For the final year exams, you have to demonstrate the correct posture and form for beating a slave to death with the correct sticks. It's a multiple choice exam, there are 4 different sticks to choose, only one of them is the right one. And there are several different ethnicities of slave to beat, you have to demonstrate the correct form for beating all of them.
It's quite a rigorous and gruelling exam, really. One must observe proper form when beating a helpless person to death, I suppose. It's only respectful to the slave.... The lack of money is the root of all evil. |
Vulxanis Viceroy
Xiadii Family Holdings
44
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 19:47:00 -
[116] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:As an Amarr lady, I can exclusively reveal, that we are taught how to use our slave-beating sticks at school.
For the final year exams, you have to demonstrate the correct posture and form for beating a slave to death with the correct sticks. It's a multiple choice exam, there are 4 different sticks to choose, only one of them is the right one. And there are several different ethnicities of slave to beat, you have to demonstrate the correct form for beating all of them.
It's quite a rigorous and gruelling exam, really.
You and I obviously went to two very different schools, heretic. As an Amarrian Lord, I can advocate that nothing of the kind was taught. Fide et honore.
(OOC note: proper form of address is Lord Draconis. Not anything with "Viceroy". Seriously, read my bio - https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vulxanis_Viceroy#Extended_Bio)-á((Twitter @VulxanisViceroy)) |
Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
104
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 04:31:00 -
[117] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Leopold Caine wrote:Don't you have any better role models for this pointless hate-mongering than a long dead and buried civilization? Long dead and buried? I saw one teleporting about the place on a live newsfeed a few years back. ...Then he exploded, but it was very impressive up to that point, and the detonation itself certainly left an impression too. I kind of doubt that an entire civilization has just gone belly-up and died in less than a decade. Especially a civilization whose approach to diplomacy over the last few centuries has largely consisted of silence interspersed with only occasional appearances each of which was an opportunity to showcase their technological superiority. Why do people keep insisting that they're extinct? I'm not claiming that they aren't, I just see no evidence to support that particular assertion. That people believe the Jove are extinct is laughable. I don't know about the other empires, but there are Jovian corporations operating in Caldari space, freely and plainly. The State herself is on very good terms with the Jove.
To believe otherwise is just ignorance. |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3205
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 09:08:00 -
[118] - Quote
Vulxanis Viceroy wrote:You and I obviously went to two very different schools, heretic. As an Amarrian Lord, I can advocate that nothing of the kind was taught.
The curriculum on deadpan ironic humour at your school was clearly deficient, also. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Gosakumori Noh
Seraglio Hastatus Hagia Sophia
552
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 15:28:00 -
[119] - Quote
Jennifer Maxwell wrote: That people believe the Jove are extinct is laughable. I don't know about the other empires, but there are Jovian corporations operating in Caldari space, freely and plainly.
Androids! |
Ruin Rolmera
5
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 15:44:00 -
[120] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Not to detract from the rest of your statement, but I didn't realise you had family in slavery?
The word kin does not always mean immediate family. Almost all of us have members of our tribes, sub-tribes, or clans in slavery. |
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