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MMORPG design ephiphony

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Zarad	Posted - 2006.04.19 20:42:00 - [1] First off I'm a software developer and have been trying to determine what makes a good mmorpg for quite some time now. Recently trying out Eve and leaving a 60 Priest behind in WoW I've had an ephiphony. MMORPG's PLAYED (Sorta Timelined) Sierra Network (The Shadow of Yserbius) UO (<-- Gotta love it) EQ AO DAOC SWG CoH EnB Horizons Final Fantasy Online EQ2 WoW Vanguard (Beta) Eve *The Ephiphony of a Perfect MMORPG* -Good Graphics -Keyboard Movement/Commands -Common UI (no 3rd party assist or ui mods) -Highly customizable characters -Skills over Classes (People change their mind) -Focus on single individual not forced grouping -Encouraged Player Interaction -Player Driver Economy -Meaningful Death -PvP (I prefer looting as well) -Factions -Player Roles (via skills...and skill caps) -Elaborate Travel Methods (no book clicking though) -Elaborate Crafting and Harvesting System (not confused w/ eq2 & vanguard response style) To Be Continued *Bad Games taken out of consideration Final Fantasy and Horizons didn't last a day. EnB was early beta as well. So these games are not counted in generalized statements above. also gotta link this oldie... MMORPG
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.04.19 20:47:00 - [2] are you looking at a good MMO by your standards, or a successful MMO? IMO, WoW is not a "good" MMO, but it sure as **** is successful Win a Cerberus!! sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault Stop spamming with "QFT" >:\|. - Teblin Who pwned who? ~kieron RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Tiridus	Posted - 2006.04.19 20:47:00 - [3] FFXI sucked, i hated it... But EVE is the new game and has lasted longer than any other... You basically describe eve then... Im waiting for a nice zombie armageddon based MMOPRG... like a 3d version of urban dead... ______________________________________________ Tiridus
Baldour Ngarr	Posted - 2006.04.19 20:49:00 - [4] Originally by: HippoKing are you looking at a good MMO by your standards, or a successful MMO? IMO, WoW is not a "good" MMO, but it sure as **** is successful That's a pretty clear admission that your opinion is wrong The only sensible definition of a "good" MMO is one that people like playing. More people play WoW than any other .. soo.... ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Tiridus	Posted - 2006.04.19 21:01:00 - [5] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr The only sensible definition of a "good" MMO is one that people like playing. More people play WoW than any other .. soo.... ...it must be naf? ______________________________________________ Tiridus
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.19 21:08:00 - [6] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 19/04/2006 21:09:15 Edited by: Dark Shikari on 19/04/2006 21:09:04 Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: HippoKing are you looking at a good MMO by your standards, or a successful MMO? IMO, WoW is not a "good" MMO, but it sure as **** is successful That's a pretty clear admission that your opinion is wrong The only sensible definition of a "good" MMO is one that people like playing. More people play WoW than any other .. soo.... So therefore the Backstreet Boys were a good band? 70% of America also believed that Saddam had links with Al Qaeda even after it was proven to be false. Just because the ignorant masses do/believe/listen to something doesn't mean its "good." [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Baldour Ngarr	Posted - 2006.04.19 21:10:00 - [7] Originally by: Dark Shikari So therefore the Backstreet Boys were a good band? 70% of America also believed that ****** had links with Al Qaeda even after it was proven to be false. Just because the ignorant masses do/believe/listen to something doesn't mean its "good." There's no other definition that you can possibly use. If more people think it's good than don't, I'm afraid you're outvoted. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Matthias Ungabii	Posted - 2006.04.19 22:03:00 - [8] did/does anyone else play Neocron? My first MMORPG...sigh --- Mining is like soiling one's self. Fun for a minute, but then it really starts to stink
Meridius	Posted - 2006.04.19 22:37:00 - [9] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 19/04/2006 21:09:15 Edited by: Dark Shikari on 19/04/2006 21:09:04 Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: HippoKing are you looking at a good MMO by your standards, or a successful MMO? IMO, WoW is not a "good" MMO, but it sure as ** is successful That's a pretty clear admission that your opinion is wrong The only sensible definition of a "good" MMO is one that people like playing. More people play WoW than any other .. soo.... So therefore the Backstreet Boys were a good band? 70% of America also believed that Saddam had links with Al Qaeda even after it was proven to be false. Just because the ignorant masses do/believe/listen to something doesn't mean its "good." The **** matter is based on facts, this is a subjective matter where everyones opinion can differ. Baldour is right, WoW is extremely popular so yes it is 'good'. We don't like WoW because we're looking for different things in a game (risk, no gnome trolls, ect). People enjoy WoW a lot so yes, it is a good MMO. _ __
The TX	Posted - 2006.04.19 22:48:00 - [10] Originally by: Tiridus naf lol - i love that word! espectially when someone else uses it and it just comes across as really funny at the time. thanx. Meaningful part of my post: This is the only MMO i've ever played, and im worried that all others will suck if i try to move to another. so here i am :-) ----------------- LONDON PLAYER MEET Media Thread Mining
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.19 23:00:00 - [11] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 19/04/2006 23:03:17 Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: HippoKing are you looking at a good MMO by your standards, or a successful MMO? IMO, WoW is not a "good" MMO, but it sure as ** is successful That's a pretty clear admission that your opinion is wrong The only sensible definition of a "good" MMO is one that people like playing. More people play WoW than any other .. soo.... So therefore the Backstreet Boys were a good band? 70% of America also believed that Saddam had links with Al Qaeda even after it was proven to be false. Just because the ignorant masses do/believe/listen to something doesn't mean its "good." The **** matter is based on facts, this is a subjective matter where everyones opinion can differ. Baldour is right, WoW is extremely popular so yes it is 'good'. We don't like WoW because we're looking for different things in a game (risk, no gnome trolls, ect). People enjoy WoW a lot so yes, it is a good MMO. But what is your definition of "good"? You seem to define good as "makes the most money for those who made it." I define good as "most interesting, in-depth, and freeform." Some people enjoy games that are not interesting, not in-depth, and not free-form (World of Warcraft). [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
The TX	Posted - 2006.04.19 23:05:00 - [12] Originally by: Dark Shikari i'm with DS on this. ----------------- LONDON PLAYER MEET Media Thread Mining
Baldour Ngarr	Posted - 2006.04.19 23:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Dark Shikari But what is your definition of "good"? You seem to define good as "makes the most money for those who made it." I define good as "most interesting, in-depth, and freeform." Some people enjoy games that are not interesting, not in-depth, and not free-form (World of Warcraft). But most don't. That's kind of the point. Your definition of good, and my definition of good, don't really matter any. The vast majority of online gamers think WoW is good. Neither you nor I have any authority to overrule them; by majority verdict, it IS good. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.20 00:26:00 - [14] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 20/04/2006 00:30:11 Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Dark Shikari But what is your definition of "good"? You seem to define good as "makes the most money for those who made it." I define good as "most interesting, in-depth, and freeform." Some people enjoy games that are not interesting, not in-depth, and not free-form (World of Warcraft). But most don't. That's kind of the point. Your definition of good, and my definition of good, don't really matter any. The vast majority of online gamers think WoW is good. Neither you nor I have any authority to overrule them; by majority verdict, it IS good. Good is in the eye of the critic, not the eye of the masses. The purpose of quite a bit of media in this world is not to be good, but to cater to those too conformist and ignorant to know otherwise. "Desperate Housewives" isn't "good" because millions watch it, and neither are GM cars "good" because millions drive them. Popular is not synonymous with "good". I believe the word you are looking for is "successful." [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Anatolius	Posted - 2006.04.20 00:57:00 - [15] Sales of McDonald's double cheeseburgers at $1 far outweigh sales of filet mignon at $15+ a pop. The massive volume of crapburgers sold each day certainly makes 'more money'. Maybe I'm just strange, but I'll take the filet over Grade Z meat any day of the week. MMOGs are no different.
The TX	Posted - 2006.04.20 01:00:00 - [16] Originally by: Anatolius Sales of McDonald's double cheeseburgers at $1 far outweigh sales of filet mignon at $15+ a pop. The massive volume of crapburgers sold each day certainly makes 'more money'. Maybe I'm just strange, but I'll take the filet over Grade Z meat any day of the week. MMOGs are no different. im trying to work out who's side ur on - ur post is making me think too much for 2am Usul Faust:as it stands there aren't enough pictures ob baboon's arses on the forum imo. This must change.
Plim	Posted - 2006.04.20 01:21:00 - [17] WoW is so 'popular' because it has an enormous amount of resources to support it. Having a well funded advertising campaign doesnÆt turn **** to gold. ----------------- Victory or death! ... knitting is also an option.
Baldour Ngarr	Posted - 2006.04.20 07:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Dark Shikari Good is in the eye of the critic, not the eye of the masses. There's a few choice words I could use for that opinion, but none of them are allowed on the forum. Who the hell has the right to say that what most people like isn't any good? Not you, that's for damn sure. Not me either, nor any other so-called expert who sets himself up as an arbiter of quality. If the masses think it's good, then it IS good. There's a hell of a lot more of them than there are critics, and their opinion counts. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
The TX	Posted - 2006.04.20 08:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Dark Shikari Good is in the eye of the critic, not the eye of the masses. There's a few choice words I could use for that opinion, but none of them are allowed on the forum. Who the hell has the right to say that what most people like isn't any good? Not you, that's for damn sure. Not me either, nor any other so-called expert who sets himself up as an arbiter of quality. If the masses think it's good, then it IS good. There's a hell of a lot more of them than there are critics, and their opinion counts. i think you're missing his point. There are probably MILLIONS of terrorists with the same belief, but does that make their ideas good? Usul Faust:as it stands there aren't enough pictures ob baboon's arses on the forum imo. This must change.
Varis	Posted - 2006.04.20 08:09:00 - [20] The problem here is mixing successful and good terms together. Eve, WoW, etc are different types of games. its like saying that Doom3 is good, while Civ4 isn't. I mean, they are both single player games.... Zarad started with a fallacy - you cant just determine "what makes a good mmo" in the same way you cant determine "what makes a good single player game". He needs to define more closely the type/genre of game he's looking for. mmorpg is an oversued term. it actually has a number of different areas which are slowly becoming recognized. People who are attracted to Doom/FarCry/etc (1st person shooter) are a different market to those that like C&C/Warcraft/ (RTS) etc etc etc Eve aims to give you tools to play with - a "sim-like" MMO. World of warcraft gives you a series of adventures - a "game-like" MMO. ok, i'll stop for now....
Dak Hakin	Posted - 2006.04.20 08:37:00 - [21] Everyone that plays this game is a software designer... _______________________________________________ I am the devil, and I'm here to do the devils work. Mr. Grumpy-sour-pus
0bLoM	Posted - 2007.12.20 00:24:00 - [22] Oh no, they are on to the software designers -_-
Asestorian Domination.	Posted - 2007.12.20 00:31:00 - [23] Necro much? --- MOZO
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.20 00:36:00 - [24] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Dark Shikari So therefore the Backstreet Boys were a good band? 70% of America also believed that **** had links with Al Qaeda even after it was proven to be false. Just because the ignorant masses do/believe/listen to something doesn't mean its "good." There's no other definition that you can possibly use. If more people think it's good than don't, I'm afraid you're outvoted. Since when was quality a democratic process? Lets say two people code two competing programs. One is shoddy, full of errors, and a syntactical mess, while the other is clean and efficient. The shoddy guy has a massive streak for marketing and a big budget, and out-sells his rival 10-1. Does that make his program better coded? Its certainly more popular... Not that I should be replying, since you're either a masterful troll or a colossal idiot. But sometimes its hard to resist these things, even when you should know better ------ Originally by:** CCP Prism X There's no such thing as playing too much EvE! You all obviously need more accounts!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.20 00:37:00 - [25] Poor Baldour Ngarr, now his idiocy will be seen by a whole new group of people... - DesuSigs
Mtthias Clemi Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.20 00:40:00 - [26] Originally by: Patch86 Lets say two people code two competing programs. One is shoddy, full of errors, and a syntactical mess, while the other is clean and efficient. The shoddy guy has a massive streak for marketing and a big budget, and out-sells his rival 10-1. what COULD you be referring to.... -------------------------------------------- WHO NEEDS DRUGS?? ...no seriously, i have drugs...
Sereifex Daku Gemini Sun Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.20 01:34:00 - [27] Edited by: Sereifex Daku on 20/12/2007 01:36:49 Originally by: Baldour Ngarr If the masses think it's good, then it IS good. There's a hell of a lot more of them than there are critics, and their opinion counts. LMAO! Here's an interesting fact: the majority of Germans voted for Adolf ****, yeah he turned out to be a great champion of democracy, didn't he...Well all these historians claim that he tore down the republic and created a totalitarian empire, but if the majority of people voted for him in a democratic election then all these elitist historian *****s must be lying. Sarcasm asside, I msut also point out that you seem to think that critics have no right to judge things...well that's what a critic does...That is what one is paid to do as a critic.
Sister Impotentata Elite Angels Of Death	Posted - 2007.12.20 01:39:00 - [28] MMOs have sound? Oh wait. You meant Epiphany. ----- TANSTAAFL Originally by: Psycho John Petrucci If there's any point where you feel it's too difficult, then just stop. Because you just, you don't have it, you're just not good.
Gojyu Ever Flow Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.20 02:55:00 - [29] Originally by: Sereifex Daku Edited by: Sereifex Daku on 20/12/2007 01:36:49 Originally by: Baldour Ngarr If the masses think it's good, then it IS good. There's a hell of a lot more of them than there are critics, and their opinion counts. LMAO! Here's an interesting fact: the majority of Germans voted for Adolf ****, yeah he turned out to be a great champion of democracy, didn't he...Well all these historians claim that he tore down the republic and created a totalitarian empire, but if the majority of people voted for him in a democratic election then all these elitist historian ***s must be lying. Sarcasm asside, I msut also point out that you seem to think that critics have no right to judge things...well that's what a critic does...That is what one is paid to do as a critic. Did you just compare world of warcraft to ** germany? Ladies and Gents, this thread has been godwin'd Now accepting signature commissions, contact me in-game for pricing
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.12.20 02:56:00 - [30] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 20/12/2007 02:55:52 Originally by: Gojyu Here's an interesting fact: the majority of Germans voted for Adolf ****, yeah he turned out to be a great champion of democracy, didn't he... You know who else** claimed to be a great champion of democracy? Oh, wait... 23 Member EVE Video makers: save bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! (updated)

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