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Gariuys
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Posted - 2006.04.25 13:48:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Kaleeb
Gronsak i`m saying thats what it should be after the boost not what it is now.
If people are able to fit neutrons/mwd/tank who will fit electrons or ions? Every man and his dog will fly the deimos as it will be some uber pwn mobile. Same goes for my lovely megathron.
Top end blaster ships such as the deimos and astarte should fit neutrons, lower tech and/or tier ships should fit ions/electrons. Plate setups should fit ions. Heavy nos setups should fit ions. Heavy tank setups should.... you're getting the idea I hope.
As long as you need a RCU to fit neutrons on the deimos noone will. cause with the limited number of low slots a damage mod is always better unless you don't fit a tank at all which on a 200mil+ uninsurable ship isn't a option. ( nor for actual combat, but I picked the biggest reason )
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Tehel Necrona
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Posted - 2006.04.25 13:50:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Tuxford
The tracking is another issue I haven't made any decision one way or another but I'll take a close look at it.
isn't there a change comming that will make the megaT's ship bonus 7.5 % to tracking per lvl instead of 5%, i'm sure i read it somewhere, maybe i'm wrong, but if it is getting done, then that should be ok for tracking.
/me rubs his hands at the upcomming changes
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.04.25 13:55:00 -
[63]
"cause with the limited number of low slots a damage mod is always better unless you don't fit a tank at all which on a 200mil+ uninsurable ship isn't a option."
Can't really finetune game balance to player-driven goods prices. You only need to check the Missions forum section and complaints about agent offers being always one step behind the market to see it just can't work like that...
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.04.25 13:56:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Kaleeb
Gronsak i`m saying thats what it should be after the boost not what it is now.
If people are able to fit neutrons/mwd/tank who will fit electrons or ions? Every man and his dog will fly the deimos as it will be some uber pwn mobile. Same goes for my lovely megathron.
no one wants tank + neutrons + mwd
we want the deimos to be able to survive just like all HACS
cerb: heavy launchers: 2x large t2 shield extenders!
vaga: AC + 2x large t2 shield extenders!
ishtar: 1600mm plate
ect ect
also tux, if u reduce the PG requirments for medium blasters blasters [which there are some good arguments for!] you also boost the thorax which imo is a very nice crusier atm and doesnt need a hand, so it just makes sense to either boost teh deimos PG or to do a combination of deimos PG boost, med blaster PG decrease.
and all this talk about medium neutrons, its totaly doesnt matter, its waht happens to heavy ions and heavy electrons thats gona count, i dont ever see the deimos fitting neutrons in pvp!
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IPO idea: give it a read, feedback wanted, thanks |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2006.04.25 14:01:00 -
[65]
Originally by: j0sephine
"cause with the limited number of low slots a damage mod is always better unless you don't fit a tank at all which on a 200mil+ uninsurable ship isn't a option."
Can't really finetune game balance to player-driven goods prices. You only need to check the Missions forum section and complaints about agent offers being always one step behind the market to see it just can't work like that...
k, forgot you where around in this thread.
Even a third damage mod is worth more then a rcu to fit a couple of neutrons instead of ions... iows, on a 6 low slot ship that already needs 1 or more RCU for mwd/rep/nos has a resistance hole and armor tanks, there is absolute zero chance neutrons make sense unless the combination neutrons/mwd/med rep/nos works with only 1 RCU, and even then it's sketchy cause of the minimal difference in damage those neutrons give, compaired to fitting say a damage control unit or cap relay even the combat effectiveness increase is non existant.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.04.25 14:02:00 -
[66]
deimos should be able to fit imo
5x t2 ion: 1x medium nos
MWD T2: web: 20km
1 med rep: 1 exp hardener: 2dmg mod: 1 more hardener of choice: 800mm plate!
ATM as it is, hac VS hac starting at 15km so the deimos has an advantage, the deimos looses to every hac out there! i mean it even looses to an EAGLE fitted with blasters FFS. thats how good the deimos is in its current form!
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IPO idea: give it a read, feedback wanted, thanks |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.04.25 14:03:00 -
[67]
"and all this talk about medium neutrons, its totaly doesnt matter, its waht happens to heavy ions and heavy electrons thats gona count"
Right because balance between interceptors, assault frigates and regular frigates means squat. It's only cruisers and battleships that count.
Not.
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Tassi
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Posted - 2006.04.25 14:09:00 -
[68]
Gallente own with their drones. I hope these changes wont make blasterthrons a wtfpwnmachine.
ATM drones (domi, ishtar, ishkur) ftw. After the changes drones and blasters ftw? Seems abit overkill for one race 
Even I would consider switching to gallente than 
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.04.25 14:09:00 -
[69]
Originally by: j0sephine
"and all this talk about medium neutrons, its totaly doesnt matter, its waht happens to heavy ions and heavy electrons thats gona count"
Right because balance between interceptors, assault frigates and regular frigates means squat. It's only cruisers and battleships that count.
Not.
which AF/cepter/frig fits neutron blasters that have a better use in pvp than ions/electrons?
i know the taranis doest, i know the enyo sucks with blasters let alone neutrons
wanna help me out?
-------------------Sig-----------------------
IPO idea: give it a read, feedback wanted, thanks |
Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.04.25 14:14:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Tassi
Gallente own with their drones. I hope these changes wont make blasterthrons a wtfpwnmachine.
ATM drones (domi, ishtar, ishkur) ftw. After the changes drones and blasters ftw? Seems abit overkill for one race
Even I would consider switching to gallente than
drones FTW?
no: u mean ISHTAR FTW, DOMI FTW
no no: you mean ECM FTW
you take a domi/ishtar ECM out they are not hard ships to kill. in the past i would fight NOS domi without taking two seconds to think about it becase i could always kill them before they killed me. now i dont becase of ECM they jam me 1ce im dead, and in a 90sec fight they got a pretty high chance of jamming me!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
IPO idea: give it a read, feedback wanted, thanks |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.04.25 14:16:00 -
[71]
" which AF/cepter/frig fits neutron blasters that have a better use in pvp than ions/electrons?"
Which has _zero_ relevance to statement how what happens with small blasters "doesn't matter"
Say, why don't we double the grid and cpu needed to fit small blasters? You said yourself it doesn't matter what happens to them, didn't you? So it "shouldn't matter" if no one can even fit them anymore.
Or maybe it does, after all.
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Tassi
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Posted - 2006.04.25 14:17:00 -
[72]
The problem is not only EWAR, its EWAR + these ubar drones.
I can get a nossetup + EWAR on my apoc too, that owns also but not nearly enough as a dominix.
Just look at some ship threads. "Is this setup unbeatable?" first reply: Domi will beat it.
Oh, and the ishkur can not fit any ECM and still pwns all frigs except retribution.
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Kaleeb
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Posted - 2006.04.25 14:21:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Gariuys
Top end blaster ships such as the deimos and astarte should fit neutrons, lower tech and/or tier ships should fit ions/electrons. Plate setups should fit ions. Heavy nos setups should fit ions. Heavy tank setups should.... you're getting the idea I hope.
As long as you need a RCU to fit neutrons on the deimos noone will. cause with the limited number of low slots a damage mod is always better unless you don't fit a tank at all which on a 200mil+ uninsurable ship isn't a option. ( nor for actual combat, but I picked the biggest reason )
As jose said just because a player market has made this ship very expensive doesnt mean it needs to be able to fit so much.
I agree pretty much with gronsaks setup of the deimos with either a choice of nos or 800mm plate with an ion setup but not both
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.04.25 14:41:00 -
[74]
Originally by: j0sephine
" which AF/cepter/frig fits neutron blasters that have a better use in pvp than ions/electrons?"
Which has _zero_ relevance to statement how what happens with small blasters "doesn't matter"
Say, why don't we double the grid and cpu needed to fit small blasters? You said yourself it doesn't matter what happens to them, didn't you? So it "shouldn't matter" if no one can even fit them anymore.
Or maybe it does, after all.
neutrons in the medium class and small class dont really matter! since its impossible to fit them now without a rcu and will more than likely be impobbile after the changes going by Tux suggested decrase in PG
so would you fit neutrons on to a deimos with 2 RCU or ions with 2 DMG in its place, i know which id do!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
IPO idea: give it a read, feedback wanted, thanks |
Forsch
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Posted - 2006.04.25 14:48:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Gronsak
which AF/cepter/frig fits neutron blasters that have a better use in pvp than ions/electrons?
i know the taranis doest, i know the enyo sucks with blasters let alone neutrons
My taranis does. 
Forsch
Defender of the empire |
Tulia
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Posted - 2006.04.25 15:06:00 -
[76]
I belive the grid reduction on the blasters to be acceptable. It is the deimos itself that needs a boost to powergrid, agility and speed. As it stands, the vagabond does the deimos' job better in every way.
If you can get a rack of T2 neutrons, a MWD, web, scrambler, Rep, hardeners and two dmg mods on the deimos, even if it is slower than the vaga it will have its place as it can pump out far more damage. Right now 5 ions and a MWD brings my deimos to single-digit spare pg/cpu, and my ishtar goes faster :(
Ishtar, a droneboat, goes faster than a ship with a bonus to MWD and that is designed to use blasters?
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Estya Nethary
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Posted - 2006.04.25 15:07:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Estya Nethary on 25/04/2006 15:08:04
-20 on each gun means you get an extra 100 PG to play with, which is allright in my books.
I just hope it means I can stop using those damn Electrons. It's bad enough they cause less damage than other guns while they are supposed to be the best damagedealers, but the SOUND they make.
I mean, a world-class high damage, high coolness-level close combat weapon that sounds like it's firing your next-door-neighbour's peas is just BAD.
Meh.
Originally by: TomB
It is a good day to be Jove
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.04.25 15:16:00 -
[78]
"so would you fit neutrons on to a deimos with 2 RCU or ions with 2 DMG in its place, i know which id do!"
I wouldn't fit the neutrons, and should be pretty obvious why:
* heavy electron (using stats of this one as base)
* heavy ion blaster: 6% more damage than electron for 50% more grid, and 18% more cpu
* heavy neutron blaster: 6% more damage than ion, for (again) 50% more grid, and 5% more cpu
the extra fitting costs are plain not worth the tiny damage increase, since they drastically affect ability to fit anything else, rendering the ship far more fragile that the tiny bit of more damage could make up for...
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ElCoCo
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Posted - 2006.04.25 15:34:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Meridius
Another boost to the Taranis.
Laugh
Indeed that's the only thing I got from this thread (and I fly taranis lots)
Anyway tux that 20pg reduction on med neutrons isn't gonna cut it... even on proportions it doesn't make sense and should be like 40.
Main thing you should look at is cap reduction though.
While you're looking at this thread... will more tech2 ammo be released with varied dmg types for hybrids and other guntypes?
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Porro
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Posted - 2006.04.25 15:42:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Porro on 25/04/2006 15:43:14
j0 you weird smileying raven styling (ICK ITS JUST A BRICK :( ) caldari ***** :P. Small blasters are fine, even neutrons. A taranis can use neutrons + damage mods quite well, the tracking is ok, and any small blaster user can't really complain about that especially when most blaster ships have a tracking bonus that'll be nudged up soon.
The only problems lie with the deimos, and large blasters tbh. I can't wait to see how neuts/ions/elecs will stack up against each other now, as there isnt much reason to go to neutrons with ions available, and if neutrons fitting is made too easy the other guns wont get a look in.
----------------------------------------------------
(22:01:14) (Sangxianc) you, porro, have madder skillzors than i, sang, do
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Nybbas
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Posted - 2006.04.25 15:43:00 -
[81]
boost the deimos powergrid tbfh... out of all of the hacs, the powergrid increase from its tech 1 counterpart to its tech 2 is half that of any other hacs and its supposed to be a gun boat : / Neutrons grid reqs is insane also... you get like a 8% increase in damage for about a 70% increase in fitting requirements.... its ridiculous.
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.04.25 15:46:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Estya Nethary
Edited by: Estya Nethary on 25/04/2006 15:08:04
-20 on each gun means you get an extra 100 PG to play with, which is allright in my books.
I just hope it means I can stop using those damn Electrons. It's bad enough they cause less damage than other guns while they are supposed to be the best damagedealers, but the SOUND they make.
I mean, a world-class high damage, high coolness-level close combat weapon that sounds like it's firing your next-door-neighbour's peas is just BAD.
Meh.
no a decrease of 20 MW means you get 18x 5 = 90 MW to play with [you need to take into account the skills!  ]
-------------------Sig-----------------------
IPO idea: give it a read, feedback wanted, thanks |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.04.25 16:07:00 -
[83]
"j0 you weird smileying raven styling (ICK ITS JUST A BRICK :( ) caldari ***** :P. Small blasters are fine, even neutrons. A taranis can use neutrons + damage mods quite well, the tracking is ok, and any small blaster user can't really complain about that especially when most blaster ships have a tracking bonus that'll be nudged up soon. "
:P i don't mean there's something wrong with current state of small blasters. Which is exactly why i don't think it's reasonable to say things like "we don't need to pay attention to how these changes will affect things on small ships, it's the medium and big stuff that matters"
Changes to small blasters means some ships out of blue are getting 5-7 extra MW of grid because their turrets suddenly are getting easier to fit. That in ship class which was up to now quite fairly balanced. Is it too small number to waste time talking about when there's poor Deimos and Co suffering out there? Whatever, in this case can i please get 5-7 grid extra on Crow and Raptor too? A change like this supposedly doesn't matter, after all...
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Kaeten
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Posted - 2006.04.25 16:54:00 -
[84]
thanks for response tux \0/
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Kaeten
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Posted - 2006.04.25 16:54:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Meridius
Another boost to the Taranis.
Laugh
dude amarr are already h4xxing 
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Cummilla
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Posted - 2006.04.25 17:33:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Tuxford
I'm taking a look at blasters as we speak. I'm pretty much in agreement with the complaints, the main problems are high capacitor need, cpu could use reduction and the grid on small and medium neutrons are a bit high compared to railguns.
The tracking is another issue I haven't made any decision one way or another but I'll take a close look at it.
If the test server was up then you would already be seeing some changes on it. I've been told that it should be up soon.
xmas comes early for Dreez. hehe :)
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Darken Two
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Posted - 2006.04.25 17:50:00 -
[87]
Originally by: j0sephine
"then what was the whole rabbi story about
that story just says you guys got it ok you just dont see it, which is what im saying is BS"
It was a joke mostly ^^ but it boils down to, people tend to complain about what they have, while they're lacking perspective to fully realize what exactly they have. And getting some experience of more limited conditions can help to realize it.
Grass always looking greener on the other side, and all that jazz.
What exactly we have, is blaster ships that are not viable in any form of PvP unless a host of external factors are exactly right.
Your contibution in thios thread, has been a bunch of BS that has no relevance to anything. If you had a clue, you wouldn't ask anyone to compare a blaster deimos to a blaster eagle.
You are usually sensible but seems you have a few screws loose when you joined this thread. Go away if you dont like blasters and let those of us who actually enjoy flying blaster boats, have our say.
Originally by: Blind Fear
Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.04.25 18:34:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Gariuys
Originally by: j0sephine
"cause with the limited number of low slots a damage mod is always better unless you don't fit a tank at all which on a 200mil+ uninsurable ship isn't a option."
Can't really finetune game balance to player-driven goods prices. You only need to check the Missions forum section and complaints about agent offers being always one step behind the market to see it just can't work like that...
k, forgot you where around in this thread.
Even a third damage mod is worth more then a rcu to fit a couple of neutrons instead of ions... iows, on a 6 low slot ship that already needs 1 or more RCU for mwd/rep/nos has a resistance hole and armor tanks, there is absolute zero chance neutrons make sense unless the combination neutrons/mwd/med rep/nos works with only 1 RCU, and even then it's sketchy cause of the minimal difference in damage those neutrons give, compaired to fitting say a damage control unit or cap relay even the combat effectiveness increase is non existant.
Ok... so what about a Tempest with 1400 IIs? I have maximized fitting skills and the best of the best equipment on my snipers but I still have gaps in shield and armor AND I have to use an Powergrid Mod for 6 guns on a ship with 8 highs. Sounds like j0 is right and the grass looks greener to you people.
Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Pesadel0
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Posted - 2006.04.25 19:54:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Darken Two
Originally by: j0sephine
"then what was the whole rabbi story about
that story just says you guys got it ok you just dont see it, which is what im saying is BS"
It was a joke mostly ^^ but it boils down to, people tend to complain about what they have, while they're lacking perspective to fully realize what exactly they have. And getting some experience of more limited conditions can help to realize it.
Grass always looking greener on the other side, and all that jazz.
What exactly we have, is blaster ships that are not viable in any form of PvP unless a host of external factors are exactly right.
Your contibution in thios thread, has been a bunch of BS that has no relevance to anything. If you had a clue, you wouldn't ask anyone to compare a blaster deimos to a blaster eagle.
You are usually sensible but seems you have a few screws loose when you joined this thread. Go away if you dont like blasters and let those of us who actually enjoy flying blaster boats, have our say.
Lol at ya mate,so you want to roam in your deimos free and killing like a madman?The deimos only needs some pg and with the changes on the blasters they will be worth it.
The only think i see here are galentes wanting their RAX T2 pre RMR pawn BS alone and ** * ,did you ever see at the munnin per example?Or any other ships that are in need of a bit a love?
You will get the blaster love and you will kick *** have some patience,hell even the smal ones are being looked at .
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.04.25 20:44:00 -
[90]
Edited by: j0sephine on 25/04/2006 20:45:20
"What exactly we have, is blaster ships that are not viable in any form of PvP unless a host of external factors are exactly right."
As opposed to what? Because you make it sound like every single other HAC (or any other combat ship for that matter) doesn't fall under this rule, and is a wtfpwn mobile in any 0-200 km engagement no matter their setup, 100% of time.
Pretty much every ship and setup relies on some 'external factors to be exactly right' in order to be viable and dies when they aren't. Hardly a big deal.
"If you had a clue, you wouldn't ask anyone to compare a blaster deimos to a blaster eagle."
And surprisingly enough, i didn't. I suggested to fly another ship to gain a perspective on what "slow and sluggish" can really mean.
"You are usually sensible but seems you have a few screws loose when you joined this thread. Go away if you dont like blasters and let those of us who actually enjoy flying blaster boats, have our say."
"if you don't like blasters"?
This isn't some sort of holy church of blaster pwnage where people sing praises to the guy with highest wrecking shot they got out of their Deimos on a large secure container. It's forum section dealing with overall game combat balance.
If you don't like it someone doesn't find the requests for ship that can fit all heaviest guns, perfect tank, and can cover distance to any target in less time it takes to say "and i want a pony too" very reasonable ... tough. But you'll have to discuss it with rational counter-arguments why all these things packed together would be a good thing, rather than try to count other people's screws.
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