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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Rei Kuroki
Aegis Requiem. Aegis Requiem
10
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Posted - 2014.03.11 13:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have just realized that damage resist mods does not give the stated resitance boost for some damage types, NOT counting in stacking penalty.
Lets say with an Adaptive invul2, which in the description says to give 30% bonus to all damage types. When you switch it on in space, with only one of it and no other resist mods or rigs, it gives 30% resist bonus only to EM, and less and less towards Explosive, giving only about 15% on Explosive.
Is this the way it's supposed to be? Then what is going on?
Somebody please explain to me :S |
Entilarza
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2014.03.11 13:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
Didnt look into that yet, but is it 30% from total dmg without mods? 0% EM Res => 0.3*100% = 30% 50% Expl Res => 0.3*50% = 15% |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
31
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Posted - 2014.03.11 13:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
U calculate it the other way around. Lets say u have 50% resist, that means 50% damage will still apply. Add another 50% hardener and 50% of the damage that comes thru is removed > new resists 75% (not 100%) |
unidenify
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
72
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Posted - 2014.03.11 14:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
don't quote on me because I find it from random poster in other thread
Resist reduce what remain rather than add to resist.
example: 100 EM damage against shield do 100% damage due to 0% resist Invul Field reduce it to 70 damage, so 30%
Same scenario but with Explosive 100 Exp damage against shield do 50% of damage due to 50% resist. Invul reduce it to 35 damage. Because Exp damage is reduce from first resist, so second resist reduce damage which is 50 damage instead 100. so 15% reduce from Invul field for exp
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Dreadchain
Lavateinn
36
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Posted - 2014.03.11 14:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Let's say you have 20% base EM resist and apply a 50% hardener. Your resist jumps up 40%, up to 60%.
With the hardener offline, you'd take 80 damage from a 100 EM damage shot. With the hardener on, you take 40, thus reducing the original damage to half (50%). www.minerbumping.com |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2189
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Posted - 2014.03.11 14:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Rei Kuroki wrote:I have just realized that damage resist mods does not give the stated resitance boost for some damage types, NOT counting in stacking penalty.
Lets say with an Adaptive invul2, which in the description says to give 30% bonus to all damage types. When you switch it on in space, with only one of it and no other resist mods or rigs, it gives 30% resist bonus only to EM, and less and less towards Explosive, giving only about 15% on Explosive.
Is this the way it's supposed to be? Then what is going on?
Somebody please explain to me :S
math is hard. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Celeste Benal
Rubicon Unlimited
42
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Posted - 2014.03.11 15:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Resist modules are not stacking penalized. However, resists added to a certain damage type are reduced by the current resist percentage. Otherwise, it would be hilariously easy to get resists beyond 100% on tech 2 and 3 ships.
So adding a 30% bonus on top of a 25% resist will get you .30*(1-.25)+.30 = .525 = 52.5% resist, not 55%.
Also, inb4 moved to ships and modules.
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
2820
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Posted - 2014.03.11 15:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Celeste Benal wrote:Resist modules are not stacking penalized. However, resists added to a certain damage type are reduced by the current resist percentage. Otherwise, it would be hilariously easy to get resists beyond 100% on tech 2 and 3 ships.
So adding a 30% bonus on top of a 25% resist will get you .30*(1-.25)+.30 = .525 = 52.5% resist, not 55%.
Also, inb4 moved to ships and modules.
Resists are penalized, unless they're explicitly stated not to. Like the damage control module.
Damage is applied as follows (which leads to the resists) Assuming you're using modules which don't have a stacking penalty (to keep the math simple):
Damage of 100
hull resist of 50% reduces that to 50. Adaptive invuln of 30% reduces that to 35 . Damage control of 20% reduces that to 28.
so it's
X * (1- Resist 1) * (1 - resist 2) * (1 - resist 3)
100 * 0.5 * 0.7 * 0.8 28 damage remains.
The stacking penalty would be applied at to the resist, before it's subtracted from the 1 to become a multiplier. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4236322 http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Rei Kuroki
Aegis Requiem. Aegis Requiem
10
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Posted - 2014.03.11 15:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
Thanks for all the answers, so that was whats going on :O
EVE math is really confusing at some parts :S |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3283
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Posted - 2014.03.11 16:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Well, think about it. If it was a hard "I attach this module and gain 50% resistance absolute" then it would be absolutely trivial to make many ships completely immune to all damage. At absolute most, you'd need two hardeners - 50+50 = 100% damage resistance = you take no damage at all from that damage type.
The "x% of the remainder" system means that no matter what you do, your ship will always take some damage. As it should be. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Batelle
HOMELE55
2193
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Posted - 2014.03.11 16:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Rei Kuroki wrote:Thanks for all the answers, so that was whats going on :O
EVE math is really confusing at some parts :S
Sooner or later you'll realize it actually makes way more sense than the math in any other game. You just need to remember that everything multiplies. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Panhandle Industries
279
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Posted - 2014.03.11 16:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Rei Kuroki wrote:Thanks for all the answers, so that was whats going on :O
EVE math is really confusing at some parts :S Sooner or later you'll realize it actually makes way more sense than the math in any other game. You just need to remember that everything multiplies. Multiplication is hard though...
OP, just think of it this way. Each module reduces its percentage of the remaining damage after other resistances are applied. Also, I've heard that damage controls work differently for calculating resistances. I can't confirm this though. New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
1062
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Posted - 2014.03.11 17:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
Go with signature and speed tank. _¦Å-æ-»¦Ñ¦¼-Ä_-¢-å¦ä_-½-»-å¦ÿ-ò-û¦¦ |
Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2646
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Posted - 2014.03.11 17:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Rei Kuroki wrote:Thanks for all the answers, so that was whats going on :O
EVE math is really confusing at some parts :S Sooner or later you'll realize it actually makes way more sense than the math in any other game. You just need to remember that everything multiplies. some stuff is divided
200 dps with a 25% rof mod is 200/0.75 = 266, not 250
that is, if i'm remembering it right |
Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2646
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Posted - 2014.03.11 17:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Celeste Benal wrote:Resist modules are not stacking penalized. However, resists added to a certain damage type are reduced by the current resist percentage. Otherwise, it would be hilariously easy to get resists beyond 100% on tech 2 and 3 ships.
So adding a 30% bonus on top of a 25% resist will get you .30*(1-.25)+.30 = .525 = 52.5% resist, not 55%.
Also, inb4 moved to ships and modules.
Resists are penalized, unless they're explicitly stated not to. Like the damage control module. although the mod description says 'penalty', i think resist mods are really more like diminishing returns, rather than the stacking penalty mechanic? the damage control is just additive to the resist rather than multiplicative? |
Serene Repose
Saanen Freight Service
1002
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Posted - 2014.03.11 17:32:00 -
[16] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:Go with signature and speed tank. When will they learn? WHEN will they learn?
I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2196
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Posted - 2014.03.11 17:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote: although the mod description says 'penalty', i think resist mods are really more like diminishing returns, rather than the stacking penalty mechanic? the damage control is just additive to the resist rather than multiplicative?
Diminishing returns is exactly what it is. Adding a new mod will never make you worse off in that particular area. Damage control is not additive, as nearly nothing is actually additive. The way it works is that all stacking penalized mods go on "a stack," sorted by the strongest first. Then diminishing returns apply starting from the second effect (not necessarily module) on the stack. Non-stacking penalized mods are not on the stack, and apply their full bonus. The exception is the damage control and reactive armor hardener, which are both not stacking penalized, but when used together, are considered stacked together, with the weaker bonus getting the 87% penalty. Note that things on the stack are effects, not a module itself. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
2823
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Posted - 2014.03.11 18:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Benny Ohu wrote: although the mod description says 'penalty', i think resist mods are really more like diminishing returns, rather than the stacking penalty mechanic? the damage control is just additive to the resist rather than multiplicative?
Diminishing returns is exactly what it is. Adding a new mod will never make you worse off in that particular area. Damage control is not additive, as nearly nothing is actually additive. The way it works is that all stacking penalized mods go on "a stack," sorted by the strongest first. Then diminishing returns apply starting from the second effect (not necessarily module) on the stack. Non-stacking penalized mods are not on the stack, and apply their full bonus. The exception is the damage control and reactive armor hardener, which are both not stacking penalized, but when used together, are considered stacked together, with the weaker bonus getting the 87% penalty. Note that things on the stack are effects, not a module itself.
It's because, behind the scenes, they apply their damage reduction in different ways.
you have resists, from the regular hardeners, plates, etc.
And you have a damage resonance from the damage control and the reactive armour hardener.
so they get stuck in stacks based on that, then the penalties are applies, per stack. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4236322 http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar E.A.R.T.H. Federation
347
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Posted - 2014.03.11 18:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Celeste Benal wrote:Resist modules are not stacking penalized. However, resists added to a certain damage type are reduced by the current resist percentage. Otherwise, it would be hilariously easy to get resists beyond 100% on tech 2 and 3 ships.
So adding a 30% bonus on top of a 25% resist will get you .30*(1-.25)+.30 = .525 = 52.5% resist, not 55%.
Also, inb4 moved to ships and modules.
Resists are penalized, unless they're explicitly stated not to. Like the damage control module. although the mod description says 'penalty', i think resist mods are really more like diminishing returns, rather than the stacking penalty mechanic? the damage control is just additive to the resist rather than multiplicative?
There is the native penalty involved that this thread covered and the arbitrary penalty added to curb multiplier stacking. Wasn't really needed for resists, but they did it anyway.
Resists are double penalized, nothing else gets that treatment.
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Real Serious PVPer
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2014.03.11 18:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Noticed this the other day when I was melting targets too fast.
-áSerious about being serious- Putting the "P "into PVP one fight at a time. -áMUFC |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14056
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Posted - 2014.03.11 18:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Celeste Benal wrote:Resist modules are not stacking penalized. However, resists added to a certain damage type are reduced by the current resist percentage. Otherwise, it would be hilariously easy to get resists beyond 100% on tech 2 and 3 ships.
So adding a 30% bonus on top of a 25% resist will get you .30*(1-.25)+.30 = .525 = 52.5% resist, not 55%.
Also, inb4 moved to ships and modules.
Resists are penalized, unless they're explicitly stated not to. Like the damage control module. although the mod description says 'penalty', i think resist mods are really more like diminishing returns, rather than the stacking penalty mechanic? the damage control is just additive to the resist rather than multiplicative? There is the native penalty involved that this thread covered and the arbitrary penalty added to curb multiplier stacking. Wasn't really needed for resists, but they did it anyway. Resists are double penalized, nothing else gets that treatment.
Resists aren't "double penalised".
1 Kings 12:11
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Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1052
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Posted - 2014.03.11 19:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:although the mod description says 'penalty', i think resist mods are really more like diminishing returns, rather than the stacking penalty mechanic? the damage control is just additive to the resist rather than multiplicative?
Resists increase superlinearly as the percentage increases linearly:
To halve damage from 0% resist, you have to get all the way to 50% resist.
To halve damage again from 50% resist, you have to get to 75% -- half as much.
To halve damage again from 75% resist, you only have to get to 87.5% -- half as much again.
To halve damage again from 87.5% resist, you only have to get to 93.75%. Now, in just four steps, we've gone all the way down from +50% to +6.25% to get the same percentage reduction in net damage.
That's why resists work the way they do, and that's why they're stacking penalized on top of being multiplicative.
EDIT: Or, going by linear percentage increases in resist, so you can see the way the effectiveness of each 10% increase accelerates:
Going from 0% to 10% resistance nets you a 10% increase in damage resisted.
Going from 10% to 20% nets you a 11.1% increase.
Going from 20% to 30% nets you a 12.5% increase.
Going from 30% to 40% nets you a 14.2% increase.
Going from 40% to 50% nets you a 16.7% increase.
Going from 50% to 60% nets you a 20% increase.
Going from 60% to 70% nets you a 25% increase.
Going from 70% to 80% nets you a 33.3% increase.
Going from 80% to 90% nets you a 50% increase.
Going from 90% to 99% nets you a factor of ten increase. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2196
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Posted - 2014.03.11 19:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote: It's because, behind the scenes, they apply their damage reduction in different ways.
you have resists, from the regular hardeners, plates, etc.
And you have a damage resonance from the damage control and the reactive armour hardener.
so they get stuck in stacks based on that, then the penalties are applies, per stack.
whut. Resists are resists. the DC and RAH are special and get their own stack, but i've never heard of "damage resonance." "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Pew Terror
Green Associates
114
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Posted - 2014.03.11 19:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
The first non-penalized hardener does exeactly what it says on the box. If you would have taken X damage before activating it, you will take X*(1-0.3) afterwards.
I can recommend this t-shirt: http://www.zazzle.de/funf_drittel_aller_leute_sind_mit_bruchen_schlecht_tshirt-235808457275536471 |
Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2646
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Posted - 2014.03.11 19:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Benny Ohu wrote: although the mod description says 'penalty', i think resist mods are really more like diminishing returns, rather than the stacking penalty mechanic? the damage control is just additive to the resist rather than multiplicative?
Diminishing returns is exactly what it is. Adding a new mod will never make you worse off in that particular area. Damage control is not additive, as nearly nothing is actually additive. The way it works is that all stacking penalized mods go on "a stack," sorted by the strongest first. Then diminishing returns apply starting from the second effect (not necessarily module) on the stack. Non-stacking penalized mods are not on the stack, and apply their full bonus. The exception is the damage control and reactive armor hardener, which are both not stacking penalized, but when used together, are considered stacked together, with the weaker bonus getting the 87% penalty. Note that things on the stack are effects, not a module itself. yeh gotcha |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3256
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Posted - 2014.03.11 20:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
How damage resistances work: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4123325#post4123325 |
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations CODE.
4219
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Posted - 2014.03.11 22:12:00 -
[27] - Quote
I just throw stuff on and see what happens. See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
10774
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Posted - 2014.03.11 22:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
Erotica 1 wrote:I just throw stuff on and see what happens.
You can never go wrong with a kitchen-sink leeroy fit. Sometimes they surprise even me. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
1026
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Posted - 2014.03.11 22:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote: It's because, behind the scenes, they apply their damage reduction in different ways.
It should be noted that the devs are coding a game that they want to work. We, the players, has used all the frightening little skills that science has made available to figure out how it works.
But they are not bound by any creed to use any data, formulas and eventual exception that we think we have figured out (or even extracted from their datasets).
If a gadget work differently in EvE than it does in EFT/Pyfa, then it's a bug in the latter.
Even if that bug is missing a bug in EvE ;)
Vote for Fuzzy Steve! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4236322
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
413
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Posted - 2014.03.11 22:50:00 -
[30] - Quote
If I remember it correctly the stack works like this:
- ship hull resists including bonuses per ship skill level -> NO stacking penalty with anything - resist rigs and resist modules for the same damage type -> stacking penalty across all rigs and modules - RAH and Damage control -> stacking penalty with each other but nothing else |
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