| Pages: 1 2 [3] :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Rising Sin
   |
Posted - 2003.09.21 12:26:00 -
[61]
Well, like I said, the issue is funny because there are so many conflicting reports. Some people say they are the uber gun, other people say they're useless. I said, I don't think they're uber, but they're also not completely useless. They, like all lasers, have better tracking than the equivilent projectile and hybrid guns, and also tend to be the best at long range. Try beam or pulse if you want something better at closer ranges.
People want some gun that will be useful in every situation that they can easily mount without encountering any issues, but there is no gun like that, nor should there be.
--
"If they're shooting at you, you know you must be doing something right." |
qrac
|
Posted - 2003.09.21 15:48:00 -
[62]
so we've come to the conclusion that tachyons r good for ganking ppl but not for anything else.
this was also the intent from tomb's side i think when he said that tachyons would be very specialised weapons.
-------------------------------------------
Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Jarjar
|
Posted - 2003.09.21 17:01:00 -
[63]
I need 2 cap power relays even to power my 425mm's, they're not even lasers. Nerfing them would have a SERIOUS impact on combat, especially to laser users.
|
Kaleb
|
Posted - 2003.09.22 02:48:00 -
[64]
Consider a ship with Thermal and EM armor resistance low slot mods. Then how uber would Tachs be?
Oh ya thats right... completely useless. ;p
|
Rising Sin
|
Posted - 2003.09.22 11:38:00 -
[65]
Which goes to show why depending on one weapon type is a stupid idea, hence the reason why I have 3 different offensive systems equipped on my battleship and I'm capable of doing all damage types. I think whoever said lasers and Amarr ships were good for ganking got it right - they deal out amazing damage but can be more easily countered than other weapons/ships.
If you're soloing, going with an Apoc equipped for damage isn't smart, nor should it be. In a fleet however, a ship like that can be extremely useful.
--
"If they're shooting at you, you know you must be doing something right." |
Abn Matar
|
Posted - 2003.09.22 12:59:00 -
[66]
The tachyon is a 'special' type of weap, it has no equivilent weaps of the other types (hybrid or projectile) first yes i does take alot of cap but i makes alot of dmg, one thing i have noticed about lasers is the fact that they make to much dmg even far from their optimal range.. which they shouldnt do... like a tach can hit for 300+ when 70km away from target, this is with a multispec and it should have a optimal of 20-25km and there it would hit like 600+ for a normal shot.. then it should go down in dmg quite fast... i mean, the thing is they should make ALOT of dmg near their optimal and not so much or nothing near their falloff... |
Juan Andalusian
|
Posted - 2003.09.22 13:26:00 -
[67]
 Quote:
Consider a ship with Thermal and EM armor resistance low slot mods. Then how uber would Tachs be?
Oh ya thats right... completely useless. ;p
There will always be a certain setup that will******another setup.... at least there should be one. That's how balance should work. Uber is the weapon that can't be countered. Useless is the weapon that can't counter anything. In EVE's case it's loadouts.
Tachyons are not 1v1 weapons, because they can easily be countered by ships who can outlast the brief barage of laser fire or by ships who can outspeed and orbit the tachyon using BS at >10km.
One can't complain because a specific weapon doesn't satisfy all the combat needs. You want heavy sustainable damage? Go for Mega Pulse Lasers and figured out a speedy setup ,for 1v1, cause you gonna be missing that range... otherwise you could just fir pulse lasers and hover around the tachyon using BSs and provide cover against incoming ships and missiles.
Tachyons have a specific role. They deal large amounts of damage at long range for short periods of time.
The 425mm deals SUSTAINED moderate damage over long distane at a slightly faster pace.
425mm have far less DoT than Tachyons but that is compansated by the fact that they can sustain fire far longer than the Tachyons.
Their role in a fleet though is completely different. Tachyons can provide a good start by stripping a target from it's shields... or they can provide a good finish by dealing a high damage salvo to the target that decides to run away.
425mms offer support fire from range throughout the entire encounter, wearing downs targets so close range ships or missile launching ships can finish them off.
The fact that battle doesn't really work like this is not because of stacking modules as Jim said. Decreasing the damage done won't achieve much apart from making the battles last longer. 1-2 dam mods would turn into cap regens and nothing will have changed. The problem lies with things like current warp in distance and the fact that the battleship is the "Ubership"... BS mines better, fights better, travels faster etc... the only thing it doesn't do is haul better than other ships.
The main problem is that you don't have specialised roles for the ship categories... like you have with the turrets, which in turn mess up the turret usefulness and make turrets seem Uber or Useless. Orbit changes and signature radius and tracking speed changes help push towards the correct IMHO direction. More drastic changes are needed in this field not the stacking issue... but people are too attached to Battleships for almost everything in EVE.
You see poeple whining because they can't orbit at fast enough speeds with their battleships... for the love of god.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Rising Sin
|
Posted - 2003.09.22 13:35:00 -
[68]
Quote:
There will always be a certain setup that will******another setup.... at least there should be one. That's how balance should blah blah blah
I hate it how people always ignore projectiles when making comparisons between weapons.
--
"If they're shooting at you, you know you must be doing something right." |
Juan Andalusian
|
Posted - 2003.09.22 15:08:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Juan Andalusian on 22/09/2003 15:13:05
I didn't neglect reffering to a projectile turret because i think they suck... if that is what you are implying Rising Sin.
Wasn't making a comparison between weapons was simply stating that though such weapons all seem the same they have different roles. Just used the 425mm to illustrate that point.
Here you go:
1400mm Artie. Even more of a support turret compared to it's laser and hybrid counterpants. Has the best range in game (Opt+Falloff), which means the BS can stay safely away from the fray and deliver very powerful salvos (Highest Single Shot Damage for a Long range Turret) at regular intervals. Uses no cap which is an extra benefit that can be exploited in various ways.
A long range large turret like the 425mm and the Tachyon with different role.
The only projectiles that seem to be "useless" are the close range large projectiles... but that is also a mistake.
Close range large projs have the worst SSD and DOT values of all categories. HOWEVER apart from the obvious benefit of insignificant cap usage they have another strong point.
They have a very short optimal and long falloff. This means that once past 20k (the close range area for cruisers and battleships) all the projectile user needs to do is maintain the correct distance. Vs lasers go past >10km Vs hybrids stay around 15-20km. Projs have the most flexible close range turrets.
Optimal is not the key everytime.
The problem is not Weapon Stats nor Stacking ! The problems are things like warp in distance and other combat related things....that is why certain weapons appear useless. Combat should be engineered around fleets of various type of ships using long, medium and short range weapons (+ EW missiles and drones).
When you have mostly BS with long range weapons fighting against BS with long range weapons the only tactic will be "lock & fire" and "bring more BSs".
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Troezar
|
Posted - 2003.09.22 17:00:00 -
[70]
Being an interested observer on all these discussions it seems to me that it's like playing paper,scissors,stone. You can discuss all day long which is better but in the end they can all win and lose depending on the matchup. (I can't comment on who is right I only have experience of large hybrids)So why not put your money where your mouth is, meet each other on Chaos if you don't agree, and prove your point(s). Nothing to lose and much more productive than the to-ing and fro-ing going on here...
PS post the results as I'd love to find out who here is right
|
Abn Matar
|
Posted - 2003.09.22 19:19:00 -
[71]
Quote:
Edited by: Juan Andalusian on 22/09/2003 15:13:05
I didn't neglect reffering to a projectile turret because i think they suck... if that is what you are implying Rising Sin.
Hmm i wonder, My 1400mm:
Rof: 13,10 s
DMG: 8,12
Cap: 2.8
Opt. Range: 27km (EMP)
Falloff: 69km (EMP)
it hits for 300+ from 5km to 70km (EMP)
2003.09.21 10:01:36 -----
Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I perfectly strikes Sansha's Ravisher, wrecking for 979.8 damage.
30km and EMP, could be 40km or 50km or even 10km... |
Abn Matar
|
Posted - 2003.09.22 19:26:00 -
[72]
Quote:
Edited by: Juan Andalusian on 22/09/2003 15:13:05
The only projectiles that seem to be "useless" are the close range large projectiles... but that is also a mistake.
Close range large projs have the worst SSD and DOT values of all categories. HOWEVER apart from the obvious benefit of insignificant cap usage they have another strong point.
They have a very short optimal and long falloff. This means that once past 20k (the close range area for cruisers and battleships) all the projectile user needs to do is maintain the correct distance. Vs lasers go past >10km Vs hybrids stay around 15-20km. Projs have the most flexible close range turrets.
Optimal is not the key everytime.
Hmm, there is a new patch called 1217, have you played it? Because the 800mm has a better tracking then a medium gun, it hits everytime for about 100-150 (EMP) and has a falloff 25km and optimal 4km
That would put us in this pos, projectiles make ALOT of damage and dont drop in dmg as fast as the other guns, so you could even be a proj closeranger, with the 4< s ROF... |
Juan Andalusian
|
Posted - 2003.09.22 22:37:00 -
[73]
Quote:
Quote:
Edited by: Juan Andalusian on 22/09/2003 15:13:05
I didn't neglect reffering to a projectile turret because i think they suck... if that is what you are implying Rising Sin.
Hmm i wonder, My 1400mm:
Rof: 13,10 s
DMG: 8,12
Cap: 2.8
Opt. Range: 27km (EMP)
Falloff: 69km (EMP)
it hits for 300+ from 5km to 70km (EMP)
2003.09.21 10:01:36 -----
Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I perfectly strikes Sansha's Ravisher, wrecking for 979.8 damage.
30km and EMP, could be 40km or 50km or even 10km...
What did you hit at 5km for 300+ with the 1400mm? a Planet? :P
As i said i didn't say the Proj's suck as Rising Sin implied... just opted to use another category for my example.
And yes i have been on 1217. 100-150 damage is moderate compared to large close range turrets... but still the short optimal and long falloff make them very versatille and given a speed superiority over the enemy projectiles could win against a hybrid or laser close ranger.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
QBall
|
Posted - 2003.09.22 22:55:00 -
[74]
I've done quite a bit of testing pre-patch to find out the max(useful) range or weapons. I came up with:
(Optimal + Falloff) * .7 = Max Usable Range.
For some reason that works, even if for some reason your that equation falls below your optimal it's usually right. So your max theoretical fighting area is from your Min range due to tracking, and that number.
Hope that helps yah, but with all the changes I don't know if it's different know or not.
--------
"OMG IT'S TRAMMEL 2.0!!!!"
-QBall
And
QQ is QQ |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 [3] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |