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Verlyn
Sisters of Xambu
16
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Posted - 2014.03.23 23:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
A little OP ?
Who else here agrees that its current drone dps should be a thing of the past ?
I suggest reducing it by a quarter, or at least minus 2 drones, to make things even and to force Tristan pilots to think more on range mitigation issues than just your usual point/click/watchtheshow ...
To put things into perspective, Tristan's dps, drones + guns, is the equivalent of 4x guns dps, at the very least...
I just tested it out against an incursus, it outdps'ed it by a long shot, as well as tanking dmg, and optimal range was maintained on both sides throughout the entire fight (easy enough for the tristan's drones....)
Please CCP, bring back an advantage to pilots who actually think and test their fits through as opposed to ones who just copy/paste each flavor of the month...
/Flames on |
Atomeon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2014.03.23 23:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
i dont see much difference on dps. 5x hobgoblin II with good skills are 80dpsthats like 1.5x turret ;p |
Dan Rae
EVE University
Ivy League
19
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Killing drones takes nanoseconds to do and renders boats like the Tristan useless. Every ship in EVE has it's plus and negative sides. |
Liam Inkuras
Aunenen Civil Liberties Union
901
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
A Tristan with no damage mods will do 100dps from drones, and then some from guns. The 150 and up to 200 DPS range is perfectly average for frigates. The Tristan is a well balanced ship, and as mentioned a live can be rendered useless by 2 shottong each of its 8 drones.
I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
Kairavi Mrithyakara
468
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
And yet, for all the DPS it can do, it has the tank of an old, rotting banana. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
5037
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
*hops in a Trstan*
*laughs manically*
*explodes gloriously*
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Valleria Darkmoon
Convicts and Savages
Shadow Cartel
211
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 08:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Hear that CCP? That Tristan hull buff was too strong, with its new hull it's just too sexy to stay out of. |
Valleria Darkmoon
Convicts and Savages
Shadow Cartel
211
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 09:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
In all seriousness though, as is normal for a drone boat the Tristan already has 1 less slot than normal for a T1 frigate. T1 frigates were set at 10 slots during tiericide and drone ships always get 1 less slot that normal so no, it's not going down to 8.
Second, there is a good reason the Tristan did not get the traditional drone damage bonuses and that's because ~300 dps would not have been out of the question if it had gotten it, the application bonus is what makes it good against frigs and 300 deeps would have been OP.
Third, your post is primarily about the damage the Tristan can deal but you are proposing removing a tank slot which doesn't even address drone dps but just reduces its already poor tank to non-existent.
Lastly, the first line of your post reads like this: Tristan: "A little OP?", so I propose we nerf it into the ground. Even if it was a little OP removing half of its drones and one slot is EXTREMELY excessive. I understand one killed you, it happens.
Also never open a post with a question, Betteridge's law says that any headline that ends in a question mark can always be answered with "NO", and it holds true here. |
Denuo Secus
242
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 10:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
I hear Merlin is OP as well. Also Condor. And as we're speaking about it: Inkursus (dat tank!). Did I mention the Atron? Way to fast for a cheap T1 frig. Punisher deserves a nerf too. It can be fit with cruiser EHP! |
Verlyn
Sisters of Xambu
16
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 22:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Atomeon wrote:i dont see much difference on dps. 5x hobgoblin II with good skills are 80dpsthats like 1.5x turret ;p
x.5 is already too much, by comparison, it's the incursus that gets its role bonuses to damage, not the tristan.
By role bonus standards, the tristan should be made more agile, and not more ganky than the incursus as it currently stands ...
Incursus : 5% DAMAGE bonus.
Tristan: 7.5% TRACKING SPEED bonus.
...
Also, some numbers to compare:
My incrusus's dps as it currently stands with 3x 125mm/caldarinavy, one damage rig, and one magstab, max gunnery skills:
113 dps.
Tristan dps, with x2 125mm/caldarinavy + Hobgoblin II drones, no mods, no rigs:
133.2 dps.
Sorry but that fact is simply NOT role standard, whether you like it or not, and OP.
And to whichever troll said all an incursus had to do was to shoot the drones down, try doing that with rails and still having enough cap/time to break the tristan afterwards, bullshit argument.
Tristan is OP.
I don't care how you fix this, just fix this broken-ass ship to what it was meant to be, just a highly agile and moderately ganky drone frig. Is all. |
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Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Cruis3r's Cr3w Inc.
Margin of Silence
85
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Posted - 2014.03.25 23:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:Atomeon wrote:i dont see much difference on dps. 5x hobgoblin II with good skills are 80dpsthats like 1.5x turret ;p x.5 is already too much, by comparison, it's the incursus that gets its role bonuses to damage, not the tristan. By role bonus standards, the tristan should be made more agile, and not more ganky than the incursus as it currently stands ... Incursus : 5% DAMAGE bonus. Tristan: 7.5% TRACKING SPEED bonus. That alone should speak for itself in how the Tristan ought to be getting used, but is simply not due to its dps advantage... Some numbers to compare: My incrusus's dps as it currently stands with 3x 125mm/caldarinavy, one damage rig, and one magstab, max gunnery skills: 113 dps. Tristan dps, with x2 125mm/caldarinavy + Hobgoblin II drones, no mods, no rigs: 133.2 dps. Sorry but that fact is simply NOT role standard, whether you like it or not, and OP. And to whichever troll said all an incursus had to do was to shoot the drones down, try doing that with rails and still having enough cap/time to break the tristan afterwards, bullshit argument. Tristan is OP. I don't care how you fix this, just fix this broken-ass ship to what it was meant to be, just a highly agile and moderately ganky drone frig. Is all.
where did the tristan touch u. Sorry but it is definitly not OP, it has its weaknesses and strong points.
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Enya Dorne
29
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Posted - 2014.03.25 23:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:
Also, some numbers to compare: Tristan is OP.
Pls nerf
Most fits for tristan's that I have seen are neuts on the highs.
tbh 133.2 deeps from eft probably sounds good but you would be missing tank really and application really even with the 7.5% bonus. |
Taoist Dragon
Sucker Punch.
929
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 23:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:Atomeon wrote:i dont see much difference on dps. 5x hobgoblin II with good skills are 80dpsthats like 1.5x turret ;p x.5 is already too much, by comparison, it's the incursus that gets its role bonuses to damage, not the tristan. By role bonus standards, the tristan should be made more agile, and not more ganky than the incursus as it currently stands ... Incursus : 5% DAMAGE bonus. Tristan: 7.5% TRACKING SPEED bonus. That alone should speak for itself in how the Tristan ought to be getting used, but is simply not due to its dps advantage... Some numbers to compare: My incrusus's dps as it currently stands with 3x 125mm/caldarinavy, one damage rig, and one magstab, max gunnery skills: 113 dps. Tristan dps, with x2 125mm/caldarinavy + Hobgoblin II drones, no mods, no rigs: 133.2 dps. Sorry but that fact is simply NOT role standard, whether you like it or not, and so OP comparatively. And to whichever troll said all an incursus had to do was to shoot the drones down, try doing that with rails and still having enough cap/time to break the tristan afterwards, bullshit argument. Tristan is OP. I don't care how you fix this, just fix this broken-ass ship to what it was meant to be, just a highly agile and moderately ganky drone frig. Is all.
Point on the model of the incursus where the nasty tristan touched you!
But seriously 113 dps with rails on your incursus? you need a better fit . And the tristan is paper thin compared to an incursus.
My standard incursus fit will chew though a tristan quicker than the drones will chew through my shield! Hell even an AB arty rifter punches through a tristan pretty quickly.
Tristan is a simple kill a lot of the time. Scram kite so they can't neut/track with rails and kill drones. then kill tristan. or just completely out gank the tristan and tank the drones.
That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Verlyn
Sisters of Xambu
16
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 23:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
where did the tristan touch u. Sorry but it is definitly not OP, it has its weaknesses and strong points.
The issue here is that its current strongpoint being used is standing over another ship role's strongpoint, and giving itself a role it shouldn't have over the latter ship in the first place, because of written role bonuses, understand ?
Enya Dorne wrote:
Most fits for tristan's that I have seen are neuts on the highs.
tbh 133.2 deeps from eft probably sounds good but you would be missing tank and really damage application even with the 7.5% bonus.
Read again, the incursus dps listed above was WITH dmg module/rig.
That Tristan was just guns and drones ALONE, no mods, no rigs.
Are we getting there yet ? |
Verlyn
Sisters of Xambu
16
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 23:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
. |
Taoist Dragon
Sucker Punch.
929
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 23:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:
And I dont care about ingame tactics to kill one with another ship, this is Incursus vs Tristan debate, and I just noticed it had a much higher base dps overall, and that didnt make much sense if we're talking role to role ship balance.
Found your problem!
Stop EFT warrioring and actually see how things 'perform' before you rant and rave about how OP things are! 
AS for roles they are both 'combat' frigates duh! One is slightly faster/agile etc and the other is more of a crowd controller there is a good balance between the two. And you fit is lacking if you can only muster 113 dps from a rail incursus. and if you really want to go into it blaster fit it and smack that rail tristan upside the head. 
And FYI just so we are completely clear balance =/= the same stats or abilities. This I feel may be part of the root cause of your misunderstanding of their relative abilities.
That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Verlyn
Sisters of Xambu
16
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 00:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:Verlyn wrote:
And I dont care about ingame tactics to kill one with another ship, this is Incursus vs Tristan debate, and I just noticed it had a much higher base dps overall, and that didnt make much sense if we're talking role to role ship balance.
Found your problem! Stop EFT warrioring and actually see how things 'perform' before you rant and rave about how OP things are! AS for roles they are both 'combat' frigates duh! One is slightly faster/agile etc and the other is more of a crowd controller there is a good balance between the two. And you fit is lacking if you can only muster 113 dps from a rail incursus. and if you really want to go into it blaster fit it and smack that rail tristan upside the head. And FYI just so we are completely clear balance =/= the same stats or abilities. This I feel may be part of the root cause of your misunderstanding of their relative abilities.
Yes, one slightly faster/agile =/= MORE dps than the other supposed "crowd controller dps" type,
Or else taking on that crowd control role for itself over the latter one .....
So, I might as well just not use incursus for that role and if I want to use rails on it ?
Like so many people are doing right now by going Tristan instead I suppose ? |
Dan Rae
EVE University
Ivy League
22
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 00:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:Some numbers to compare:
My incrusus's dps as it currently stands with 3x 125mm/caldarinavy, one damage rig, and one magstab, max gunnery skills:
113 dps.
Tristan dps, with x2 125mm/caldarinavy + Hobgoblin II drones, no mods, no rigs:
133.2 dps.
You're obviously forgetting that the incursus will do 100% of it's damage to the tristan LONG BEFORE the drones even reach it IF THEY EVEN DO, right?
I guess killing drones really is hard after all. |
Taoist Dragon
Sucker Punch.
929
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 00:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:
Yes, one slightly faster/agile =/= MORE dps than the other supposed "crowd controller dps" type,
Or else taking on that crowd control role for itself over the latter one .....
So, I might as well just not use incursus for that role and if I want to use rails on it ?
Like so many people are doing right now by going Tristan instead I suppose ?
Yup, I know I've been replying to a stealth "but I <3 my OP Tristan so much" argument all this time...
Hmm Don't think I ever actually flown a Tristan. Apart from the incursus I don't like the gallente artistic design so meh
And thank you for the lovely evemail showing me just how much of an eft warrior you actually are.
No stop whining and man up and go kill some tristans. after all they deserve a quick and violent death \o/
Edit. Just checked my kill board. Nope never flown a tristan. They are not crap but far from OP.
That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Dan Rae
EVE University
Ivy League
22
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 00:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Let's do a quick compare of the two with similar fits. The following numbers imply an all V char.
[Incursus]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Photonic CPU Enhancer I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Medium Azeotropic Ward Salubrity I
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Warrior II x1
196DPS on paper.
[Tristan]
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Medium Shield Extender II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Light Electron Blaster II, Void S
Light Electron Blaster II, Void S
[Empty High slot]
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
195DPS on paper.
Spot the difference between the fits? The incursus has the PG & CPU to fit the ions, the tristan does not. This problem is compounded on the tristan due to it having less low slots than the incursus. As has already been said, if the incursus is flying at its optimal, it will apply 100% of its DPS 100% of the time. Knock out the drones from the tristan (or outrun them, or ignore them) and its game over. |
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Verlyn
Sisters of Xambu
16
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Posted - 2014.03.26 00:36:00 -
[21] - Quote
Dan Rae wrote:Let's do a quick compare of the two with similar fits. The following numbers imply an all V char.
[Incursus]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Photonic CPU Enhancer I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Medium Azeotropic Ward Salubrity I
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Warrior II x1
196DPS on paper.
[Tristan]
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Medium Shield Extender II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Light Electron Blaster II, Void S
Light Electron Blaster II, Void S
[Empty High slot]
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
195DPS on paper.
Spot the difference between the fits? The incursus has the PG & CPU to fit the ions, the tristan does not. This problem is compounded on the tristan due to it having less low slots than the incursus. As has already been said, if the incursus is flying at its optimal, it will apply 100% of its DPS 100% of the time. Knock out the drones from the tristan (or outrun them, or ignore them) and its game over.
I mean yea, in theory it is possible to fit in order to match both dps ...
..... |
Dan Rae
EVE University
Ivy League
22
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 00:40:00 -
[22] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:
I mean yea, in theory it is possible to fit in order to match both dps ...
.....
Ok, fine. Be obtuse. Take your ball and go home, just make sure to put your toys back in your pram on the way there, ok? |
Taoist Dragon
Sucker Punch.
929
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Posted - 2014.03.26 00:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:
I mean yea, in theory it is possible to fit in order to match both dps ...
.....
So you ARE comparing actual fits to counter each others disadvantages then? 
Verlyn wrote:
And I dont care about ingame tactics to kill one with another ship, this is Incursus vs Tristan debate, and I just noticed it had a much higher base dps overall, and that didnt make much sense if we're talking role to role ship balance and specifics.
.....
Hmm really?!
I think you need a viagra shot to the eyes so you can go take a long hard look at yourself!
Put the teddy back and drink your milk it's almost time for you to go back to your colouring lessons.
That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
552
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 13:45:00 -
[24] - Quote
Stop being bad. Some Incursus fit can perma tank the dps of the Tristan. The thing of the Incursus is its *tank*. The dps is the thing of ALL gallente combat ships, and drone ships can *always* outdps pure blaster ships. Considering its tank, the Tristan is far from OP.
If you died with an Incursus against a Tristan, you just have been worse than your ennemy. Learn from your mistakes instead of crying.
Also, your idea of base dps is plain stupid because it means nothing with drones. |
Luwc
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
81
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
I agree.
neut brawler tristan is pretty OP.
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Weed Guy
Space Kush Dispensary
9
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Posted - 2014.03.26 15:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
I dunno how you're supposed to outrun a scout drone without a MWD which then increases sig radius by a bunch so... |
Verlyn
Sisters of Xambu
16
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 17:07:00 -
[27] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Stop being bad. Some Incursus fit can perma tank the dps of the Tristan. The thing of the Incursus is its *tank*. The dps is the thing of ALL gallente combat ships, and drone ships can *always* outdps pure blaster ships. Considering its tank, the Tristan is far from OP.
If you died with an Incursus against a Tristan, you just have been worse than your ennemy. Learn from your mistakes instead of crying.
Also, your idea of base dps is plain stupid because it means nothing with drones.
I wasnt using a blaster incursus in the original fight i posted in at the start of the thread.
Clearly, the point i was making was that I would have much better overall performance at pvp using a Tristan over Incursus due to its higher dps range when using rails, drones, and neut...
And so, rendering the rail version of an incursus useless against it.
Forcing me to that choice proves something with Incursus is either lacking, or that Tristan needs yet another nerf somehow for that specific situation.
Or not, just keep it the way it is, and I'll just avoid any tristan encounters from now on,
Which is a shame because it's a very popular ship nowadays...obviously... |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
552
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 17:36:00 -
[28] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:Clearly, the point i was making was that I would have much better overall performance at pvp using a Tristan over Incursus due to its higher dps range when using rails, drones, and neut...
And so, rendering the rail version of an incursus useless against it.
Forcing me to that choice proves something with Incursus is either lacking, or that Tristan needs yet another nerf somehow for that specific situation.
Or not, just keep it the way it is, and I'll just avoid any tristan encounters from now on,
Which is a shame because it's a very popular ship nowadays...obviously... Not a single bit of what you are saying is true though because you ignore everything but the raw base dps to back your thought. The Incursus is popular because it's a very powerful ship and the Tristan might have a fair chance to kill it but nothing more. The Incursus have more speed and more tank than the Tristan which largely compensate for any dps advantage the Tristan can have.
You are absolutely not forced to choose a Tristan over an Incursus for scramkiting. Stats would even advise you the reverse. You are either bad for thinking that you can't kill a Tristan with an Incursus, or a dirty troll. |
Shelom Severasse
Lusitan Initiative
5
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Posted - 2014.03.26 19:30:00 -
[29] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:A little OP ?
Who else here agrees that its current drone dps should be a thing of the past ?
I suggest reducing it by half, such as minus 2 drones, to make things even and to force Tristan pilots to think more on its gun range mitigation than just your usual point/click/watchtheshow ...
Im getting sick of it.
To put things into perspective, Tristan's dps, hobgoblin drones + guns, is the equivalent of 4x guns dps, at the very least...
I tested it out again against a kiting rail incursus, it outdps'ed it by a long shot, as well as tanking dmg long enough, and optimal ranges maintained on both sides throughout the entire fight.
Please CCP, bring back an advantage to pilots who actually perform real fighting management, opposed to all the drones who just copy/paste and abuse i-win flavors of the month...
/Flames on
TLDR: Reduce Tristan's drone capacity by half, or remove one low slot to reduce its tanking capacity, or anything which would force tristan pilots to doing a little more than just launch drones/watch things die..
it out dps'd a rail fit? theres a surprise >.>
i have decent drone/gun skills and o/h with void i get roughly 180 dps. at 1km. do you know what happens outside of 1km? small hybrids do next to no dmg due to next to no range. sounds like the op points/clicks/watches the show...
do you know what insanity is? trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. maybe try flying something that you only have to deal with the drones -> scram kite or true kite or use neuts or, you know, something besides what youve been doing.
do you know what sad is? posting a thread crying about a certain ship and begging ccp to change it so that you can beat it with whatever you like to fly instead of forming a constructive debate about how to defeat the ship with what you have now
the tristan is a powerful ship because it can field a full flight of light drones, but it is not this "dps omgwtfpwnbbq boat" that you claim it is |
WaterMarks
Khanid Armament
8
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Posted - 2014.03.26 20:15:00 -
[30] - Quote
Tristan is a more combat aimed ship the the incursus.
Also learn to.shoot drones and the tristan loses practicly all its dps.
You are comparing a potato to a tomato...
I think ur this is.more operators error then anything else
Edit: also learn to counter nuets...
-Fly Reckless- |
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Taoist Dragon
Sh1t Happens. And then you die.
931
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Posted - 2014.03.26 20:57:00 -
[31] - Quote
OP read all of these reply's they are saying the exact same things I'm telling you via the evemails you keep sending.
That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
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