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CivrGrrl19	Posted - 2006.05.05 04:24:00 - [1] With the blaster 'news', I'm a bit lost now. I was excited to fly a viable blasterthron, and now... well... So I'm wanting to explore other short range BS PVP options. So far as I can see it, my options are: - Dominix (drones) - Apoc (pulse) - Geddon (pulse) - Tempest - Raven My thoughts and questions on each: Dominix ECM is, admittedly, overpowered. Trouble is, without ECM, a Dominix will be pretty much useless. With a NOS nerf (which is highly likely given the number of *** threads there are are every day), the Dominix is pretty much screwed. Since the Dominix is what I've been planning to fly (aside from a blasterthron ), I really hope that this ship isn't smacked the down too hard. I'm looking for alternatives, because I'm pretty sure it will get smacked down hard though. Apoc Its slow. Really slow. Fortunately it can tank. If it tanks, it can't do great damage. This is the kind of info I'm looking for. Is it a viable option? Geddon It can't tank. It can do damage however. It might work as a sniper ship, or as a support gankship. I have seen somewhat conflicting opinions on its ability to do any sort of solo (non sniping) PVP, though. Tempest** I know this ship is great, with lots of player and character skill... but how much character skill does it really take? It doesn't have to use its missile slots for anything but NOS, I gather - and the NOS props up its tank. Aside from blasters, I imagine this is the king of short range combat? (Aside from perhaps an ECM domi - but I imagine, once again, that a non-ECM domi would get ripped up?) Raven I will not fly a Raven. There's some matter of principle here. So - can you give some hope to us noobs whose hopes are now dashed at the lackluster "blaster fix"?
Benglada	Posted - 2006.05.05 04:38:00 - [2] Why dont you just fly a ship you like as opposed to the flavour of the month? I hate people like you, nerfs will come and go. --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
CivrGrrl19	Posted - 2006.05.05 04:46:00 - [3] Edited by: CivrGrrl19 on 05/05/2006 04:46:35 Originally by: Benglada Why dont you just fly a ship you like as opposed to the flavour of the month? FOTM = success. Not necessarily guaranteed success. FOTM is FOTM because it has not been smacked down yet. In some cases, it has been smacked down, but not enough. You also can't smack things down forever - because there is a threshold at which smacking it down any farther will make it completely useless. So why can't I fly a ship that I like? Because I like success. Nerfs may come and go, but goals don't. To have success, you must use the tools that will lead to success. Player skill only goes so far. ECM has proven this! I don't want success handed to me, but on the same token I know that it is impossible to succeed when your hammer is made of wood and your screwdrivers are the wrong size. Quote: I hate people like you, nerfs will come and go. Do you really? Do you wish that bad things happen to me? Could you say to my face that you hope that my house burns, that my children fall ill, or that I lose my job or spouse? Or do you hate me because I'm looking for success; and you are too; and you are bitter for the same reason that I am - but instead of sharing your sorrow, you would rather bolster yourself by shaming others?
MrFu	Posted - 2006.05.05 04:48:00 - [4] wooho layeth down the smackpipe I need a sig
CivrGrrl19	Posted - 2006.05.05 04:50:00 - [5] Originally by: MrFu wooho layeth down the smackpipe I have no idea what that means.
Mr Breakfast	Posted - 2006.05.05 04:59:00 - [6] Is the new blasterthron really alllll that bad? Those cap bonuses will add up.
Foulis	Posted - 2006.05.05 05:00:00 - [7] Edited by: Foulis on 05/05/2006 05:00:43 Originally by: CivrGrrl19 Originally by: MrFu wooho layeth down the smackpipe I have no idea what that means. ye olde english must be confusing you. Put down your pipe of smack. ^- not meant to be helpfull. ---- Cake > Pie - Imaran Originally by: CCP Hammer Boobies
CivrGrrl19	Posted - 2006.05.05 05:01:00 - [8] Originally by: Mr Breakfast Is the new blasterthron really alllll that bad? Those cap bonuses will add up. Well, it is certainly not as bad as it is now. But, the improvements are meager at best. It makes the ship quite ineffectual... It isn't fun to lose Megathrons... so I don't know why so many people insist that flying a blasterthron is 'fun'... Maybe because it is a rush to warp out in structure?
CivrGrrl19	Posted - 2006.05.05 05:02:00 - [9] Edited by: CivrGrrl19 on 05/05/2006 05:02:49 Edited by: CivrGrrl19 on 05/05/2006 05:02:35 Originally by: Foulis ye olde english must be confusing you. Put down your pipe of smack. ^- not meant to be helpfull. I didn't know I was smack(ing)... Ahhhg... this thread has become horribly derailed. Topic!
Chattelbruiser	Posted - 2006.05.05 05:05:00 - [10] The truth is that currently the game is quite well balanced. One iron rule of the Internet is that 90% of what you read on it is bunk. That rule does not apply to these forums -- here it is 99%. Everyone on these forums always evaluates things in even matches between skilled and prepared opponents, when in reality almost none of the combat in EVE takes place that way. Far more 10 on 1 ganks, confused blob fights, indy and npcer popping, pirate ambushes and highly asymmetrical battles (BS vs inty, 10 frigs vs 2 BS) occur than neat duels between similar opponents or highly organized fleet battles. As such, most of the evaluations posted on these forums are simply useless. They do not address the reality of EVE at all. The reality is that for all the whining and moaning, storm and fury, all races and ships in EVE are viable at this point, even the blasterthron. They all have roles. That's why accounts of real battles routinely have forum-impossible events like bellicoses killing BSes. The forums are just wrong. So fly what you want to fly and ignore the forums. The math here is correct, but the premises behind the math are completely wrong. That's why FOTM is such a joke -- it means you've been tricked by the forums into running after yet another illusion -- the FOTM is no more likely to give you success than another reasonably chosen and properly setup and flown ship. You're not chasing success -- you're being had.
CivrGrrl19	Posted - 2006.05.05 05:09:00 - [11] I understand and respect the point you are trying to make... However, an I to believe that it is purely coincidence that the Raven is the most common battleshipship by such incredibly margins?
Mary Wan	Posted - 2006.05.05 05:13:00 - [12] Originally by: Chattelbruiser The truth is that currently the game is quite well balanced. One iron rule of the Internet is that 90% of what you read on it is bunk. That rule does not apply to these forums -- here it is 99%. Everyone on these forums always evaluates things in even matches between skilled and prepared opponents, when in reality almost none of the combat in EVE takes place that way. Far more 10 on 1 ganks, confused blob fights, indy and npcer popping, pirate ambushes and highly asymmetrical battles (BS vs inty, 10 frigs vs 2 BS) occur than neat duels between similar opponents or highly organized fleet battles. As such, most of the evaluations posted on these forums are simply useless. They do not address the reality of EVE at all. The reality is that for all the whining and moaning, storm and fury, all races and ships in EVE are viable at this point, even the blasterthron. They all have roles. That's why accounts of real battles routinely have forum-impossible events like bellicoses killing BSes. The forums are just wrong. So fly what you want to fly and ignore the forums. The math here is correct, but the premises behind the math are completely wrong. That's why FOTM is such a joke -- it means you've been tricked by the forums into running after yet another illusion -- the FOTM is no more likely to give you success than another reasonably chosen and properly setup and flown ship. You're not chasing success -- you're being had. QFFT, but there's a 99% chance this statement is bunk.
Benglada	Posted - 2006.05.05 05:36:00 - [13] What im saying is, if you try to fly a flavour of the month ship now, it will get nerfed, and your left with tons of skills in just a "decent ship" and then you move to the next flavour of the month ship, meaning you will never be good in one ship, just mediocre in 4. Temps used to be crap, But people stuck to them, and now tempests are one shotting cruisers from 200km. --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
CivrGrrl19	Posted - 2006.05.05 05:39:00 - [14] Originally by: Benglada What im saying is, if you try to fly a flavour of the month ship now, it will get nerfed, and your left with tons of skills in just a "decent ship" and then you move to the next flavour of the month ship, meaning you will never be good in one ship, just mediocre in 4. Temps used to be crap, But people stuck to them, and now tempests are one shotting cruisers from 200km. Fair enough - OTOH, a dev said IRL that they "want" Minmatar to somewhat be the "underdog". Kinda sad...
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.05.05 05:58:00 - [15] wow at OP... guy is genious, he didn't even bother to put thron on the list. Also it will be worth to check typhoon. Die, die, die.
Chattelbruiser	Posted - 2006.05.05 06:04:00 - [16] Originally by: Mary Wan QFFT, but there's a 99% chance this statement is bunk. Nice one, but you are actually right. The key is that you must think for yourself. Using the forums as a replacement for good old-fashioned brainwork is what creates FOTM.
CivrGrrl19	Posted - 2006.05.05 06:04:00 - [17] Originally by: LUKEC wow at OP... guy is genious, he didn't even bother to put thron on the list. Also it will be worth to check typhoon. Wow at LUKEC. Didn't even bother to read the OP. (The whole OP is about the Megathron, m8! Well - in as much as it is about blasters and BS... which in my book = Megathron )
CivrGrrl19	Posted - 2006.05.05 06:07:00 - [18] Edited by: CivrGrrl19 on 05/05/2006 06:14:52 Originally by: Chattelbruiser Using the forums as a replacement for good old-fashioned brainwork is what creates FOTM. Good old fashioned brainwork tells me that: Always hit + good damage + great tank = WIN ECM = WIN Didn't need the forum to tell me that. With due respect to your point, I think FOTM is the FOTM because it is better. PS: Can I get some advice and discussion about the ships I asked about? There are people out there who have experience flying these ships - and I really would like to hear some experiences so I can make a decision.
Kel Shek	Posted - 2006.05.05 06:25:00 - [19] Quote: It isn't fun to lose Megathrons... so I don't know why so many people insist that flying a blasterthron is 'fun'... maybe their skill goes further than yours, >_< seriously... that tone and question in general is screaming "I suck and want a easy win button" so your not likely to get much help in finding it. and many will say there isn't one. your goal should be to enjoy the game. you should be able to enjoy the game wether you win or lose, and you should be able to play intelligently enough that you can enjoy playing AND not lose so much, or so painfully, that it becomes un-fun. really... you'll be better off if you fly what you like, and what fits your skills... or adapt your skills for what you like. if you enjoy it, you will be better at it! make it work. while I haven't PvP'ed really at all to speak of... its amusing as hell how in EVE and everywhere else, so vastly many try to work out things theorizing on some hypothetical "at equal player/character skill and means" situations... when there IS no such thing. one person WILL have better character and/or player skill. one WILL almost certainly get the drop on the other, or start in the better position. I played for like 6 months pre-exodus, and returned after RMR... I approached the game a little differently in some ways, advanced some skills I shoudl have back then, got new ones... and learned more about what can happen and how to do things. ... don't get stuck in a min/max habit or get too stuck in habits.... make it work. if you rely too heavily on one thing then you'll have problems. I don't see why a dominix without ECM would be worthless... I can see how nos getting toned down could be severely problematic.... but the impression I got from the dev blog was that its likely to be in the form of a counter-nos module... now maybe its meaningless theory-craft here(sorry... I didn't start in WoW, but some phrases just roll off the toungue easily) but if I can fit a module which forces my opponent to fill a slot with something in that way (ok, I guess shieldboosters and armor reps are like that, but I think thats different) then they are (or should be) weakening themselves in order to counter part of my fitting... which reduces their options for their own fittings. I don't see why having a counter module for NOS would criple a dominix... even without the NOS it can have a hefty tank, and do its full damage... if it wasn't obvious... my main ship is a dominix. second favorite is my ishkur. (no ishtar yet) Quote: Always hit + good damage + great tank = WIN so why do you seem to think you need BOTH to win? Drones of the appropriate size for the target don't miss much and collectively, with good skills, do good damage. and leave you with the vast majority of your fitting to devote to your tank. I admit I have not flown my dominix in PvP. but with my mission setting and tank (4 actives, 2 large armor reps, Heavy cap booster, 2 heavy nos that aren't always on) if I have to buckle down I can burn both large reps for probably almost or around 5 minutes I'd figure, if I burn the booster constant or nearly constant. of course thats without ECM, and the NOS honestly doesn't help the tank THAT much, its just a little extra. yeah... thats with 2 cap rechargers, a cap power relay, and large cap battery... but thats a pretty heavy amount of tanking. ~~~~~ To see a World in a Grain of Sand And Heaven in a Wild Flower Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour ~~William Blake
Luc Boye	Posted - 2006.05.05 06:26:00 - [20] for close range, t2 raven + injector is kinda hard to beat imo.
R31D	Posted - 2006.05.05 07:54:00 - [21] Edited by: R31D on 05/05/2006 07:54:58 Originally by: Luc Boye for close range, t2 raven + injector is kinda hard to beat imo. This is the truth. Sad, but true. The main reason Blasterthrons seem to do well is that the average Blasterthron pilot is a lot more skilled (both SP and player skill) than his counter-parts. This is the only thing that makes the Blasterthron such a good ship over, say, an Armageddon. As an alternative close-range ship, I'd say go with the Tempest. It's so adaptable it can usually keep up with changes (one of your main points you want in a ship it seems) and with the changes to Projectiles in the next patch (ACs drain a surprising amount of cap), an AC tempest will be seriously good Free bumpage for all
Berrik Radhok	Posted - 2006.05.05 08:16:00 - [22] Go against the grain, fly a blasterpoc Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Capt 69	Posted - 2006.05.05 09:54:00 - [23] oh lord, the ship I want to fly isnt the best ship for every single thing in the game, goddamn, i better go make a thread and whine about it.
Luc Boye	Posted - 2006.05.05 10:01:00 - [24] Funny how its always caldari mocking other peoples complaints about short range bs.
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.05.05 10:05:00 - [25] Use Blasters on the new Caldari BS... ~Shadowlord Don't miss your chance to buy Sobe
Farjung	Posted - 2006.05.05 10:13:00 - [26] Blasterdomi's > blasterthron right now anyway and the blaster changes won't do anything to change that from what I can tell. Plus there's plenty of other builds you can stick on a domi that'll be > blasterthron. Injector torp raven's nice, but it lacks the mobility/flexibility of the domi. If you want a competent and reasonably flexible ship without leaping on the nearest win button bandwagon then ACpest's probably worth a look. --- Reckless Wave of Mutilation
Twin blade	Posted - 2006.05.05 10:17:00 - [27] Typhoon is a good PVP ship no one know's What the hell you got on that ship other than drone's and an armor tank.
EvilTwin I	Posted - 2006.05.05 10:53:00 - [28] Originally by: CivrGrrl19 Dominix without ECM, a Dominix will be pretty much useless. Apoc it can't do great damage. Geddon It can't tank. non sniping I disagree º! You need to try some ships Aim for "favor of the mounth" is waste of skillpoints ..get the ship you want, train it to MAX ..and refit it 1-100 X times ..then draw new conclution
Wulfgard	Posted - 2006.05.05 13:02:00 - [29] T2 torp Raven + injector vs T2 650s Pest + injector = too close to call. If the Pest managed to land a jamming (fit 1 hypnos in mid) it can win, but the flexibility of range and contant dmg of Raven is winning card imo
Heikki	Posted - 2006.05.05 14:42:00 - [30] Some random thoughts without that much on-topic suggestions: Strategy on having good skills on currently powerful ship might be a really viable one: you'll be succesfull, and have lots variety. Likely downside will be that you'll always use the most common setup: facing increased prices (for non-T1 mods), and having predictable setups. The latter means a lot in all these consentual battles we have. I hope the opposite strategy (getting excellent skills along one skill tree, and finding good usage niches for the ship) will stay equal through the balancing cycles. I tend to think Blasterthron is still damn good ship, even more after the changes. But as Chattelbruiser pointed out, it is most likely because my opponents suck, not because of the ship excels. Or in other words, if you think a certain ship is bad in real Eve combat, thats because you suck: there are so many poor pilots that you should feel succesful even in crappy ship if you are using it well. -Lasse slighly confused whether Blasterthron is still the uber ship

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