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Grimmacker
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Posted - 2003.09.19 20:06:00 -
[1]
Being a professional software developer I invented, designed, created, implemented and maintained a massive online game in the past. A stockgame to be precise, not as complicated as EVE but nevertheless a system that was used by thousands of people.
We had our problems at first but with every single patch or update things got better and better until it ran smoothly 24/7 for years, at least 3000+ users online at the same time, countless transactions and loggins.... and no need for reboot but we did restart the server once a week just to make sure we had a fresh windows NT start.
Why i'm a saying all this? So that you know that I know what i'm talking about when i say the following:
The patch to 1215/1217 is a complete disaster, clearly it has NOT been tested by anyone, not even alpha tested by the programmers. Normally a patch is meant to fix bugs not to introduce them. The fact that this patch introduced more problems than it solved is a very disturbing sign. It gives me the impression that CCP's programmers are lost in there own code. Or the leadprogrammer left for a holliday without documenting a single procedure or function, and a bunch of less experienced coders hacked and tweaked into his code trying to fix something, using a "trail and error" kind of method. "I have no idea what i'm doing and where i'm doing it but just lets see if something changes when i do.. this.....".
Do not get me wrong, i think EVE is the best game i have ever seen and i'm really impressed because i know how much work it takes to make something on a scale of this and to have it stable, well most of the time.
But releasing a patch that half-fixes 2 bugs, introduces 10+ new ones and adds 1.5 new functions is just ridiculous.
CCP: please forget about new functions, items or whatever you have planned for us. Give us a real patch that actually fixes bugs. When the system is stable, then you can add new features. Why are you trying to add new functionality to a partly flawed system? Its like putting a brand new flag on a ship and not fixing the hole in its hull, that does not get you anywere. Its pointless and counter-productive to work like this, and in time it will be more difficult to fix the real bugs if you pile it up with new functions that 'depend' on them.
As for me, the most anoying bugs are:
- The newly introduced UI refesh/reload/paint bug.
- The newly introduced eve-mail screen, i have to click on every name in the list (30+) to find my new message and then only to discover that i cannot read it because of the UI bug.
- Cargo containers, specially the huge and giant. You tried to fix the update/refresh bug several times and everytime you say "now its really fixed, really!". Negative. And with the introduction of "anchoring" containers it is now really screwed up, really. Anchoring a container only makes sure nobody (including yourself) can put something IN. Anyone can take something OUT. I tested this and what's even more shocking: if i take something from a anchored container (tested with a non-corp/non-gang person) and that person unanchores/scoops it and warps away... i can still take from it! Its really amazing when you warp away and discover that the scordite in your can is taken one by one by the person you warped away from. At least the refresh-update worked well in this case. Could be a nice exploit to transport goods like this from one side of the galaxy to the other in a split seconds without any risk. I haven't tried this though.
- Stuck problems. Fix it or at least give us a temporary way out. You should be able to auto-detect when a ship is stuck and relocate them automatically after a certain time elapsed. This will release some (a lot!) tension off your customer service and developers. If i understand your systemsetup correctly you are using game-location dedicated servers. This may seem like a good idea from a technical/database perspective but its not. Each server should be able to act like any solarsystem and each player should be (load-balanced) allocated to a server from log-in. This way you do not have to jump from server to server when jumping or docking and when a server goes down you can just ignore it until its rebooted and up again. This will eliminate the stuck problem (asuming that's the reason but i'm pretty sure about it) and as a bonus a (almost) unlimited number of players can be at the same spot without much lag. Ofcourse you have to implement a lot more server-to-server synchonization but that can be fast and stable, its 100 times better than server-to-client-to-server synchronization.
Oh well i could go on all day but i'm not writing a book here. I will still enjoy playing EVE until it becomes unplayable. Lets hope that will never happen. CCP: please please please TEST a patch before you release it next time. And it would also be a good idea to have better communication about the exact changes/fixes in a patch inste
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Tentimes
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Posted - 2003.09.19 20:24:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Tentimes on 19/09/2003 20:29:39
Absolutely spot on.
Personally I think whoever wrote and knows the core code isn't there anymore. They just don't seem to know what they are doing when the tinker with it.
I'd love to hear CCP deny this. But we wil probably get our usual wall of silence. They should change things a little at a time if they have so little knowledge of what the code does.
BTW - if some mod comes along and locks this they need a really good slap. This is a comment on CCP and their flawed development process.
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Dandria
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Posted - 2003.09.19 20:32:00 -
[3]
 Quote:
CCP: please forget about new functions, items or whatever you have planned for us. Give us a real patch that actually fixes bugs. When the system is stable, then you can add new features. Why are you trying to add new functionality to a partly flawed system? Its like putting a brand new flag on a ship and not fixing the hole in its hull, that does not get you anywere. Its pointless and counter-productive to work like this, and in time it will be more difficult to fix the real bugs if you pile it up with new functions that 'depend' on them.
They have to introduce new features or everyone will leave the game of boredom. It really hurts them. They are stuck in a catch 22. Not like that is there own dumb fault but. They really are.
People Whinning About New Content = This patch and fixing things that are not broken. Breaking more things.
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Need a ship? We Have It! |
Sc0rpion
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Posted - 2003.09.19 20:41:00 -
[4]
Today's lesson : 5 small patches >>> 1 big patch.
Learn it, love it, live it.
Incidentally Grimmacker, what game?
"The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously."
-Freidrich Nietzche |
iconoclast
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Posted - 2003.09.19 20:44:00 -
[5]
you call those bugs disasters? get real. I call them sev B. aside from the being stuck problem which has nothing to do with the patch in the first place. and everytime I have been stuck a CCP has unstuck me via petition within a few hours. everyone has their opinions and that is fine. yep, I could add to your list of disastisfactions on new bugs, my personal pet pev. is the research slot changes that now start at zero for licenses and lost the spinner button for a lame editable text box. but do any of the new bugs honestly make me not want to play the game. nope. and I am calm and rational enough to realize that the most annoying bugs are only a week or two away from being fixed. unless the all the unnecissary whining causes CCP to decide to spend half a year on each fix because of their impatient and overdemanding clients demand perfection from each patch. |
Kalki Nibiru
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Posted - 2003.09.19 20:52:00 -
[6]
Grimacker, anyone can say they are a professional software developer, but few actually provide proof.
I'm the pope, so now you can all believe that I have some religious authority.
See how the above doesnt make you believe I'm the pope?
I want to see some credentials, I want to know what MMOG you invented, designed, and created.
Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate
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<Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market?
<Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with |
Sc0rpion
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Posted - 2003.09.19 20:55:00 -
[7]
I AM THE LIZARD QUEEN!!!
"The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously."
-Freidrich Nietzche |
Avaton White
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Posted - 2003.09.19 20:59:00 -
[8]
Quote:
unless the all the unnecissary whining causes CCP to decide to spend half a year on each fix because of their impatient and overdemanding clients demand perfection from each patch.
I do not demand perfection but I do demand the ability to travel four or five systems and not get stuck. I've tried twice to play the game since 1217 and I've got stuck both times after 2 or 3 jumps. Grrrr
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"The best defense is a dead opponent." - Avaton White
"The very notion of adding new features to broken code is self defeating to the point of being borderline insane." - Par'Nabuk
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2003.09.19 21:08:00 -
[9]
As far as I'm concerned you did say it yourself.
Convert Stations
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Bizzy
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Posted - 2003.09.19 21:12:00 -
[10]
u, being that programer, should know not everyone does the same thing. there are ppl who are doing NEW things ( that will have bugs ) and ppl who are fixing probs already there. those ppl who are fixing bugs, well, they are working htere ass off right now, but dont expect the ppl working on new stuff to drop everything and start a totaly new job. comon, u said u did this, u know how it works
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Doctor One
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Posted - 2003.09.19 21:13:00 -
[11]
I have to agree with most if not all things you've said Grimmaker.
Similar comments made here
__________________________________________________
Proud member of Harbinger Heavy Industries
"Dont run... you'll just die tired!" |
iconoclast
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Posted - 2003.09.19 21:41:00 -
[12]
stuck chars... yep it sucks and no the problem was already hella there before this patch. hang in there, i am expecting it will get better (although granted I am a hopless optimist). i recommend you develop an alt char to work aspects of the game you may have not played with yet for when your main char gets stuck (and file a petition as soon as you do get stuck). i do that and have no problem entertaining myself during the couple of hours my main char is stuck AND get to try things my combat pilot doesn't normally do, like trading, agents, courier, etc. learn to use the map frequently when trouble is in the news to avoid stuck systems on long jump traveling... i have been stuck many times too, you know. it doesn't have to be a hugely negative thing if you are willing to apply a little effort to try and work around it. we are all in the same boat as subscribers (except for the poor bastards that have messed up computer systems with all kinds of unstable crap loading at startup or bad hardware drivers and blame the problem on eve - or microsoft, heh heh).
i can understand your disastifaction as i hit the same bugs right? but... do you have to gripe about it? what exactly do you think it will accomplish? do you think you can threaten CCP into making a better product? come on, it's obvious that this is their DREAM. Their BABY. it's in it's infancy now, give it a chance to get past the growing pains...
to simply place things into two camps, not entirely fair I know... the difference is and always will be the way people approach adversity. either with... "That's not fair! it sucks!" (stamps feet)! or by what my grandmother calls tightening your belt, diggin in your heels, putting your cap back on straight, and making the best of a bad situation until the sun comes out again.
guess I hit enough of these posts now today , sincerly with the hope of maybe changing a few peoples attitudes and forstalling a bit of the excessive complaining. give it week or two for the storm to blow over. cheers. |
William Gates
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Posted - 2003.09.19 21:51:00 -
[13]
FYI: Grimmacker copied my original post from the eve-i.com forum. The original link is this:
http://www.eve-i.de/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=eve1&Number=36086&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
So don't flame him if you don't agree :-)
William Gates.
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Erty
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Posted - 2003.09.19 21:55:00 -
[14]
"The patch to 1215/1217 is a complete disaster, clearly it has NOT been tested by anyone, not even alpha tested by the programmers."
Yeah..really. Not.
You know there's a test server, right?
Though I agree that many of the bugs shouldn't be there. Bugs that weren't in 1166, but is in 1217. And the devs knew about them. But they released the patch anyway :/
But as this patch had been so delayed, and so tested (maybe not the bugs, but the balancing) they simply couldn't wait any longer I think.
Some dev said that the next few patches will mainly fix bugs, so that's nice :)
How do you people manage to get stuck?
I've got stuck ONE single time in whole retail...if I can do it you should too.
Maybe I have a record or something. That would be quite nice.
This is my signature. |
William Gates
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Posted - 2003.09.19 21:57:00 -
[15]
Bizzy, i know that there can be two teams. But the team that is responsible for new features should not be allowed to add new functionality to parts of the software that does still have serious bugs. The cargo container and the new anchoring system is a good example of this.
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2003.09.19 22:04:00 -
[16]
How about presenting them as a copied text then and not as your own? 
Convert Stations
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Earthan
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Posted - 2003.09.19 22:11:00 -
[17]
NIce post Grimmacker i agree on most things you wrote about
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
SavX
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Posted - 2003.09.19 22:48:00 -
[18]
Eventually, a guy who knows what he's talking about. LOOK CCP, even professionals are saying you've messed up. Its not just us people with no experience of programming, its the proffessionals as well ;)
Don't Kill The Corp.. Kill the Suppliers. |
SavX
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Posted - 2003.09.19 22:49:00 -
[19]
Hmm.. You say you made a popular game, what game is that GRIM..?
Don't Kill The Corp.. Kill the Suppliers. |
Marias irreal
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Posted - 2003.09.19 22:50:00 -
[20]
Im also a software developer (not onlien stuff thoguh) I agree with what you said 100%. This stuff was not tested. simple stuff like prefs not being saved should be spotted by coders, let alone a proper paid QA team.
I agree, seems like some coders quit and the inexperienced code monkeys are making things worse. a great pity.
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SkyLeach
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Posted - 2003.09.19 22:57:00 -
[21]
This is the disturbing pattern i mentioned in another post.
it has been like this since beta, succesive patches introduce more bugs, fix relativley little. often they screw up things which did not need messing with and where working perfectly, and ignore major issues (asteroid bugs, 0.0 systems giving sec hits, factory lag, lack of sufficient GM game tools, etc etc)
They very rarely introduce anything of benefit to the playerbase, no new content, no/few bug fixes that are client aware.
Patches usually entail cosmetic work, new skins, new icons, new "features" -- see email system for prime example, or factory - factory is no more efficient or easier to use now than it was, but still has the same issues it did before, email one actually has more issues! before it was fine!
also when aproaching patch time, CCP wheel out the content and dangle it for people to drool at, giving the impression it is coming in the patch, or some of it at least. eg.. they will say sentry guns and other related stuff work perfectly (on chaos) then say they will be ingame in 2 to 3 weeks. Patch day aproaches (2 or 3 weeks later) guns, refineries, and other goodies shown off to player base.
patch day comes, notes released. patch comes out, hos none of the dangled stuff in it, and nothing we expected, needed or wanted. This happens over and over and over again.
we have seen videos of jump drives and other things ... that where recorded and dangled MONTHS ago, some before release even.
so.. if they where dangled all the time ago -- where the hell are they?
i smell expansion pack delay. delay as long as possible, release some small content. then save the good stuff for the expansion to "bulk" it up a bit.
i definately quit, and no you cannot have my stuff asshats who ask.
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Shock
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Posted - 2003.09.19 23:00:00 -
[22]
They've showed they can make a patch release ready in a day (1215-1217).
Then why the hell putting so many stuff at once in tranq with the chance things go wrong?
I bet as long as it isn't too grave not too many people will complain if a patch is implemented on tranq only fixing one or two things which then don't work. Also because this is then much easier to fix it again if this would go wrong and we don't have to wait for all ten or more things to be fixed for we get the new patch.
Also people really don't like surpises. Surprises like a new mailbox, even though we're screaming for other things.
---
soonÖ |
William Gates
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:21:00 -
[23]
Quote:
NIce post Grimmacker i agree on most things you wrote about
He did not wrote it, he copied it and forgot to mention the source.
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Seer
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:42:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Seer on 20/09/2003 00:43:37
I wonder CCP - you know anything about GAMP guidelines?
Write Module design
Write Module test that tests every function in the design
Test using test script
Bug Fix
Code Review
Test Again
Rinse and repeat - ITS DEAD ******* SIMPLE!!!!
oh and one thing not mentioned...
HIRE SOME DAMN TESTERS! CUSTOMERS DO NOT BUG TEST SOFTWARE
I been screaming that since alpha though so i guess it dont make much difference now
This is definitely becoming WWIIOL all over again...
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Road Kill
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:46:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Road Kill on 20/09/2003 00:48:22
Edited by: Road Kill on 20/09/2003 00:47:24
Hey peeps don't worry - its just a game - a fantastic game at that.. Microsoft do the samething all the time. with their patches - we just learn to deal with it or move on..
Chill.. The Guys at CCP do a grand job and as they say you can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please everyone all the time.. Just grab a cup of Tea or Coffee or whatever you drink, and get a bit of Real life down ya..
Thanks for bringing me Eve..
http://www.ukmn.net/verge/verge_banner.gif
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Jorev
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:47:00 -
[26]
Quote:
HIRE SOME DAMN TESTERS! CUSTOMERS DO NOT BUG TEST SOFTWARE
This is the part that amazes me.
Too many online game companies rely on players to test the product.
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Deadmetal
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:51:00 -
[27]
I'd have to agree.. I've been in the I.T. field for a number of years.. and NO I'm not going to provide credentials.. believe it if you want...
back to topic... the trend has been to throw in "cosmetic" patches that add little or no substance and cause UBER problems in the player database. This can be avioded by actually testing the code and most important... DO NOT IMPLEMENT A NEW FEATURE until all present bugs are ironed out or at least under control.. then roll out some additional content. Now everyone is saying how good Chaos is.. ok. let's port over everyone to Chaos until Tranquility is actually Tranquil .. yea right.. but I can dream...
Incidentially I've noticed a drop in number of players online recently.. a large drop... anyone else notice? 
"Human Nature - If someone put a big red button in a remote mountain cave with a sign on it 'End of the world button!! Do not push!!.. the paint wouldn't have a chance to dry." |
Klatuu
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Posted - 2003.09.20 01:00:00 -
[28]
Quote:
Hey peeps don't worry - its just a game - a fantastic game at that.. Microsoft do the samething all the time. with their patches - we just learn to deal with it or move on..
True. it is 'just a game'... it's a game that costs real money... it's a game with many pervasive bugs that could have (and should have) been found long before going live. This has been going on for a long time with no perceptible improvements in the release process from CCP.
So, if microsoft releases their latest version of office, or some patch for it and it has bugs in excel like 1+1=3 do you think people would say "Hey, they're all great programmers... I'm sure they'll get that fixed in a few weeks... till then just deal" ... !?! riiiight... |
Klatuu
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Posted - 2003.09.20 01:01:00 -
[29]
Quote:
HIRE SOME DAMN TESTERS! CUSTOMERS DO NOT BUG TEST SOFTWARE
amen, brah... |
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