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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Ineluctable.
349
   |
Posted - 2014.04.03 07:23:00 -
[31] - Quote
No, it only shows that we don't really need 00 sec. If people don't want to use it because it's too difficult and too dangerous, we can also get rid of it. Solves a lot of problems and we can all concentrate on PVP.
What you want is a forcefully implemented change to make up for the failure called human nature. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA
C0VEN
373
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 07:28:00 -
[32] - Quote
It is not to dangerous , just after those changes it will be much easier to do it in lowsec.
Building them in lowsec will mean :
- less time spent on moving ore
- less time needed for maintenance ( if you build this on a pos , then this much less time you have to focus on this)
- lower transportation cost ( 1 jump , not a whole cynochain )
I don't think that CCP goal is moving capital production from nullsec to lowsec.
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Ineluctable.
349
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 07:38:00 -
[33] - Quote
Well, it is more costly in Low sec. In addition to the fuel you spend anyways, you now have to either have a POS for as good reprocessing as possible, or lose minerals in subpar station refinery. If you go for POS reprocessing, you expose yourself to more risk and more cost, if you go for station reprocessing, you have to deal with a lot less profits. Whereas, if you produce in 00 sec, you have the same fuel cost, but a lot less reprocessing waste and more safety because of blues.
I don't see how this change in reprocessing is going to make people do more Cap production in Low sec, at least not more than it's already done. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA
C0VEN
373
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 07:47:00 -
[34] - Quote
Most of the null sec stations don't have max refinery upgrade, and because of the cost they will not have.
Pos refinery is one of the items that will do this during this time.
As for the danger.
In lowsec warping a freighter between station and pos , where you cannot use a dictor ... yes this is very dangerous.
Fuel cost , from the transport perspective?
Jumping <<1ly from higsec to lowsec station when comparing to multiple midpoints on max range?
Pos fuel? 1/4 less per month. That is nothing when you take into consideration the JF fuel you have to spend.
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Ineluctable.
350
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 08:00:00 -
[35] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Most of the null sec stations don't have max refinery upgrade, and because of the cost they will not have.
Pos refinery is one of the items that will do this during this time.
Then how about investing in the upgrades? You don't want to tell me that, now that CCP gives Sov 00 such a huge advantage over Low sec and High sec, you don't want to use it because it is too costly to upgrade stations... Don't make fun of yourself, or do you want to give me yet another reason to ask for the removal of Sov 00?
With danger I mean that your POS is easily sieged into RF and then you cannot do anything. Your freighter, which you depict as safe and infallible, can easily bumped off station (have you had a look into Ignoitton lately?). Fuel cost of a JF alone to Low sec does not account for much, but fuel cost of 2 towers for compression and reprocessing slims down the margins a lot. And fuel cost for Sov 00 holders don't count. You are supposed to mine your own minerals and not import from High sec in large quantities. If you do that, it's your own fault and does not qualify as a reason to disregard my point. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA
C0VEN
373
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 08:11:00 -
[36] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:You are supposed to mine your own minerals and not import from High sec in large quantities. If you do that, it's your own fault and does not qualify as a reason to disregard my point.
But that is the whole point.
If CCP will not do something it will be easier and faster to move materials from high to low than mining them in nullsec.
It is not about what people should , its about how much people are lazy.
CCP have to be consistent, without fully committing to idea that is behind this refinery nerf people will just move their production to lowsec - because it is easier, cheeper and faster this way.
Explain me one thing.
If there will be no change in lowsec
What is the point of mining minerals in Nullsec ( or importing them ), refining them at pos and building capitals when at the same time i can :
- Place small pos in lowsec add refinery.
- cheaply jump compressed minerals from higsec to lowsec.
- using freighter move them from station to pos and refine, bring them back
- build capital on a station
If you think you can bump freighter when you are doing this correctly - then you are doing this wrong.
You can bump JF as you know that it will be coming because of the cyno location.
System/grid have to load for a JF pilot , and it will be always 5k from cyno.
In freighter you can warp to multiple "0" spots around the station.
You are going to be using systems that are not perma camped, as this is midpoint for few nullsec regions.
If you think that you can do something to a nullsec entity that will be building capitals - then you are a bit wrong.
You will ref this pos only once - when you will come to the timer you will get 2 full fleets on your gang....
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Arthur Aihaken
Arsenite
3179
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 08:21:00 -
[37] - Quote
April 1 is over...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA
C0VEN
373
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 08:27:00 -
[38] - Quote
This was not april 1st joke ;)
When CCP want to nerf #cought# improve something.
Let it be full commitment - not something that players will overcome by just moving more production alts to low sec.
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Ludi Burek
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
296
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 08:46:00 -
[39] - Quote
I know you are trying to troll here but the pos only idea has merit, ONLY if it was pos only in null sec too.
As a producer of various stuff, higher barriers of entry are always welcome as it means less competition.
The station only in nullsec idea is stupid because it's an unjustified advantage so I guess troll successful.  |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA
C0VEN
373
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 09:09:00 -
[40] - Quote
This is not troll.
Just plain facts.
Most of the people will move cap production Nullsec -> Lowsec stations.
Safer, cheaper, less time spent on moving stuff.
Time that you spend on moving stuff is also costs , usually more important for a player than isk costs.
Nullsec ( excluding drone regions ) after this change will have 50% of its current material income.
Yes people could mine more , but why when you can just do this in nullsec.
In most of the cases people are not building capitals as a 20 people corp, but as a single person that have few alts.
Without proper adjustment made in lowsec that will limit production lines there - they will just move thier production there.
There will be probably mining corps that will try to build capitals in lowsec but take into consideration this.
Lowsec.
- minimal fees on station production lines
- fuel for medium pos ( refining )
- minimal fuel for JF ( Higsec -> Lowsec by jump drive Lowsec -> higsec by gate )
- minimal time on hauling
Nullsec ( miners ):
- 3/4 pos fuel ( refining ) ( large tower also for production )
- JF fuel ( brining missing tyt/pyerite from higsec )
- lost mining ships to rats/roaming gangs
- lost time while gangs are around
- lost time while someone is afk camping
- lost time on hauling
Take into consideration that 1 lost mining ship is around 200mil of additional costs, and probably miner will have some implants.
Nullsec ( full import ) :
- 3/4 pos fuel ( refining ) ( large tower also for production )
- high JF fuel costs for moving all minerals from higsec
- lost time on hauling
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sci0gon
Kaira Innovations
Superior Eve Engineering
19
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 10:01:00 -
[41] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:[quote=HiddenPorpoise]
While I appreciate that, you'd be effectively handing null-sec the keys to the galaxy. You cannot use capitals in higsec.
really? I hate to inform you, but there are players who own carriers / dreads in high sec.
as for the content creation due to removing capital production from low sec stations, if you love popping pos's that much you should jump in a time machine and go back to 2005 and enjoy the sov mechanics that were based around whoever could deploy more pos's on the moons in one system.
the production aspect of using low sec stations really shouldn't change, there is already more than enough content in low sec that moving the production to pos's only is not warranted. you have pirate ganking, pirate hunting, improve sec status tags hunting, FW, titans+ moms in low sec getting ganked and mishaps on stations that cause other capitals including jump freighters to get ganked too..... I also forgot to mention about pos's on good moons getting ganked too.
as you can see there is plenty of content / chances of content already in low sec and if you really are having trouble finding content why not go roaming with your corp/alliance in null |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA
C0VEN
373
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 10:13:00 -
[42] - Quote
I know, you cannot move more to higsec, if some GM will not put one to you redeeming quene.
You cannot use them in higsec , if this gives you advantage against other players ( so you can just undock ).
You cannot build more in higsec.
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Ineluctable.
350
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 11:18:00 -
[43] - Quote
So, you technically agree with me that Sov 00 is pointless for industrials, simply because the bulk of the people are too lazy, too cowardly and too convenience-only driven?
My point is and always will be that, if you have SOV, you are supposed to LIVE in your sovereign space: Make money there, build the things you need there, defend your home there. Not import from elsewhere, not make money elsewhere - only because it is easier. My point is that you have cheap access to minerals in Sov 00 because of the fact that you can set reasonable prices and because you have it right at your doorstep. You don't even need to import from 00 (which is the case in Low sec production), because you have ALL the minerals right next to you.
If that is the case, Sov 00 is pointless in its essence and can be removed. Let's just all have NPC 00 and a lot more Low sec space in this case. Solves a lot of problems and gives finally room for good PVP, more commitment and more death.
Your small POS is RF'd in minutes and you cannot do anything about it, it will be done repeatedly and especially by bigger fish to drive of smaller fish. You don't need to destroy the POS, just continually put it in RF. that interrupts enough and blueballing makes people mad over time.
The advantage of Sov 00 is that you don't need a POS to reprocess, that the cost (while also low in NPC stations) is ZERO in Sov 00 stations, unless you have a bastard as station holder. You don't need to move minerals across huge distances, just from one refinery system to the production system next door. You can do all that under the protection of Cyno Jams. There are so many advantages in Sov 00, that your points about Low sec production cannot compensate.
With your consideration points, you leave out of the picture that people gank more than ever before in High sec under dubious justifications. That you have your massive intel in Sov 00; or should have, because otherwise you are doing it wrong; that you can have defensive fleets ready and guarding the miners (which, after all, is demanded by miners in High sec as well, so why should Sov 00 mining be different?), etc. You can ignore AFK campers because you can react immediately to fleets appearing. You exactly do not lose time hauling because Refineries and Production plants are usually close together, if done right, whereas in Low sec production, you need to haul the ore/minerals from trade hubs to your Low sec.
Just start living in your space, use the full potential of what your space offers you and ignore the rest of EVE, especially High sec as source of cheap labor. You own your empire, so use it - otherwise we don't need this system at all. Also, if you start doing that properly as Sov Holders, demand in High sec for Ore/Minerals will dwindle and people look for new ways to make their money with mining, which should theoretically draw more people to Low sec and 00 Sec (not all, as I have stated repeatedly, but a considerable number will reconsider the possibilities). This can over time also solve the constantly brought up problem of the importance of trade hubs and can change the gameplay quite a lot. But if Sov 00 holders (the, as it seems, drivers for content and gameplay of EVE) continue the way they play now, nothing is going to change and people will continue bicker against their own windmills like dumb pulps of meat. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA
C0VEN
374
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 11:30:00 -
[44] - Quote
Well my point is that people will always choose easier way.
As for the lowsec pos refing.
Well the same thing can happen in nullsec.
If there will be no change to the lowsec production slots then remember one thing in case of isk:
Small Pos + some fuel + refining array << 1x T2 mining barge.
I agree that when you live in nullsec you have to use it, but in most of the cases people are using this space. Just not for mining.
Mining in eve is very booring process, so thats why in higsec is done afk.
AFK in nullsec ( exclude most of the boots ) = dead ship.
My point is very simple.
It is cheeper and easier to import basic stuff from higsec.
This is good thing, as whole eve needs this flow to keep runing.
I'm pointing that this refinery change without more actions from CCP will have also impact that CCP or nullsec players desire.
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Ineluctable.
350
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 11:55:00 -
[45] - Quote
Only in the current state of rotting things.
And if it is easier, I ask again, where is the point of Sov 00 to begin with? Why have that if people are not willing to take on a slightly harder path? From what it seems in your posts, and I mostly agree with them, we should not remove High sec from the game but make all Sov 00 into NPC 00 or Low sec, since people take the easier path anyways. Limiting cap production in Low sec is in my opinion unlikely to change anything in that regard. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA
C0VEN
374
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 12:42:00 -
[46] - Quote
But eve is not mainly about mining.
You go to nullsec for PVP.
You can fund it from activities:
- ratting ( belt/anomaly)
- do signatures (relic/combat)
- moon mining
- pos reactions
- planetary operations
- trading
- market seeding
- ratting ship farming ( quite nice isk )
- mining
- production
Nullsec is not only about mining and production.
In a system that in any TZ local don drops < 50 people almost no one is mining.
My point is that after those changes CCP will in theory buff mining and production in nullsec, but in practice it will just nerf it more.
As simple as it is - for T1 modules( especially capital one )/ships after this change this will be much more profitable :
Buy minerals in higsec build in higsec/Lowsec => Move it to nullsec
Why?
Because you will be brining product that can have better compression ratio than compressed minerals.
Even if not , you still will not be left with any excessive materials, or additional costs from running production installation, or loosing stuff because nullsec nature.
The bigger item you want to build the more additional minerals you are going to be left with.
Yes you can use it to build something else , but at the same time it is simpler to bring this item from higsec/lowsec rather than move/mine stuff and build it in nullsec.
Remember that CCP nerfed higsec industry lately.
How?
With the changes applied to Battleships.
Now most of the fleets consist from Isthars.
Move isthar hull , and move BS hull.
30 isthars + eq per JF , or 6 Battleships per JF.
So production of BS hulls locally put pressure to have minerals locally.... but we are moving away from main topic.
As for items that can be made in higsec - we cannot have almost any influence, then in case of capital hulls, that require large amounts of minerals we can actually promote local "miners" by forcing players to build it in nullsec.
We can do it only by limiting their production in lowsec.
We can do it in 3 ways :
1. Move it to poses
2. Limit the station types that can be used for this purpose, and at the same time limit the number of production slots
3. Link the ability to build capitals in lowsec - to FW ownership. ( so you can build capitals if your faction is holding station , and at the same time you have to defend this station or your productions will be cancelled and you will loose lot of isk)
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Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
304
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 14:15:00 -
[47] - Quote
no |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA
C0VEN
375
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 06:45:00 -
[48] - Quote
Yes
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Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
935
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 09:30:00 -
[49] - Quote
Um, no.
Lowsec needs more activity, not less.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA
C0VEN
375
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 11:37:00 -
[50] - Quote
Umm, yes.
Lowsec needs more activity, not less.
Do you realy want to have nullsec blobs in lowsec?
When more nullsec producers move to low then they will notice lowsec moons, they will just take most valuable - and limit themself to moon mining and production on stations.
The only time you will actually see them is when they will be pumping their pos - with 500 other friends.
I don't think that lowsec needs this kind of worthless activity.
Link Capital production to FW - then you will see actual activity people will be defending their space .
Link Production slot numbers to number of controlled systems - and you will see more of it.
People will not grind and pass systems , but defend them in order to keep production running.
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Ineluctable.
353
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 11:42:00 -
[51] - Quote
Not sure about the defending part. If that link to actual FW performance would happen and if Sov 00 bunnies switch over to Low sec for production, the mentioned blobs would just chose 1 FW side and dominate the FW area of said part, effectively prohibiting players of the opposing faction warfare from cap production. Even more power to the blob.  |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA
C0VEN
375
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 11:50:00 -
[52] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Not sure about the defending part. If that link to actual FW performance would happen and if Sov 00 bunnies switch over to Low sec for production, the mentioned blobs would just chose 1 FW side and dominate the FW area of said part, effectively prohibiting players of the opposing faction warfare from cap production. Even more power to the blob.
There is slight difference : any one can join FW, and any one in this FW can use those lines.
They will not join their main alliance to FW, and one of the corporations cannot be in FW.
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Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA
C0VEN
375
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 07:24:00 -
[53] - Quote
Yes
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Ineluctable.
363
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 08:09:00 -
[54] - Quote
They don't need to join FW, it's Low sec for a reason. |
Kasife Vynneve
Capital Storm.
The Storm Collective
23
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 09:11:00 -
[55] - Quote
No. Not everyone lives in Null or wants to live in null, so why should a aspect of the game that works be removed for those that use it in their choice of home space.
|
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA
C0VEN
375
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 09:17:00 -
[56] - Quote
Kasife Vynneve wrote:No. Not everyone lives in Null or wants to live in null, so why should a aspect of the game that works be removed for those that use it in their choice of home space.
That is my point exactly to prevent part of nullsec industry to be moved to lowsec station, and even "promote" it to keep it in nullsec.
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Kasife Vynneve
Capital Storm.
The Storm Collective
23
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 05:32:00 -
[57] - Quote
Which is not useful. I will be building a carrier at some point and I'd want it being done on a station where I have easy access and not have worry about pos logistics.
The building of capital ships is as much a low sec thing as it is a null sec thing. SuperCaps are whole different kettle of fish they alone should be the domain of null industry |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA
C0VEN
376
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 06:36:00 -
[58] - Quote
Kasife Vynneve wrote:Which is not useful. I will be building a carrier at some point and I'd want it being done on a station where I have easy access and not have worry about pos logistics.
The building of capital ships is as much a low sec thing as it is a null sec thing. SuperCaps are whole different kettle of fish they alone should be the domain of null industry
We are not talking about you, person that at some point want to build a capital - but about people that will do this on a massive scale.
As for your carrier - it will be cheaper to buy hull.
Because you will be able to save around 100 - 200mil max and if you calculate time needed for you to setup logistics and move stuff will be far more grater than time you need to earn those 200mil
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