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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.09.19 22:29:00 -
[1]
Ok, well anyone who has any experience with pvp knows that nearly all combat happens within 20 km. Why is that? The reason is that the only way you can prevent someone from escaping is to use a warp disruptor, which only works at 20km or less.
Only problem with this is that the majority of battleship weapons are effective at ranges greater than 20km. Only a few select weapons, including the neutron blaster cannon | works effectively below 20km. Moreover, if you want to stop someone from simply using a MWD to escape from your warp disruptor, you have to get within 10km to use a stasis webbifier.
It's ridiculous. If we want to see REAL battles at long range with all types of ships performing their intended role (cruisers and frigates up close and personal, battleships acting as supporting artillery from extended ranges), there needs to be a change in how these prohibitive systems work.
 My suggestion:
 Alter warp disruptors and warp scramblers so that they work on any target that you are locked onto. As a result of this, a warp scrambler would require more capacitor use because of its stronger value. This would allow people to extend the range of the battlefield to each ship's targetting range limit.
Alter stasis webbifiers (and other modules such as shield transfer arrays and power transfers, energy vampires, etc.) so that their range is vastly increased. I would suggest 50km for webbifiers and 25km for these other systems. Make certain rare energy vampires MUCH more effective. Again, this would spread the battlefield out, which is a good thing.
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Implementing these changes would allow all ships to perform their intended roles, and make pvp combat less of a squeeze to see who can get close enough to the other ship first. As it is right now, the only way to kill someone in a REAL pvp battle (not jumpgate ganking) is to close with them and web/jam them at about 5km distance.
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Taliranowe Sarum
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Posted - 2003.09.19 22:33:00 -
[2]
Or get some tactics that involve multiple ships!
Read the Rules Of Conduct and Terms Of Usage
"There is TONS of flaming, personal abuse and
other bad behaviour on the In-game board and in In-game world. If everybody would just read the rules and follow them, the EVE world be a much nicer place to be in."
Feel free to copy this Signature. |
Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.09.19 22:42:00 -
[3]
 Quote:
Or get some tactics that involve multiple ships!
We do use multiple ships. It still doesn't change the fact that it is very difficult to deal with the very limited ranges of these weapons, even when you are in a battlegroup of several battleships and cruisers.
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Nirvy
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Posted - 2003.09.19 22:42:00 -
[4]
Gotta agree, i always hated that long range combat just doesnt happen, and even if it does people tend to just warp.
Maybe Stasis/Warp Scrablers should do their thing at a % of the ships Taget lock range, say 50%, so then you could ahve bships scrambling at ~30km etc.
Although that might over power them, something has to change though to encourage longer range combat
Mercenary | The Azath |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.09.19 22:44:00 -
[5]
Quote:
Or get some tactics that involve multiple ships!
This is true, however:
It is also true that if combat is designed so that it is "effectual" only with X ships, any combat with less than X ships is always ineffectual.
Or, in other words, get 1 v 1 combat working... and multi-ship tactics will evolve on their own from there.
The problem/issue is the same as designing all the fantasy games to be group-combat orientated... it only works at the meta-level.
In reality most combat occurs at the individual and close range level in EVE (and in most other MOGs)
I dont necessarily agree with Cao-Cao's ranges and numbers but the theory is sound:
effective combat (wherein you can destroy the opponent) is effectively limited by the maximum range at which you can prevent the opponent from leaving.
QED - the range of scramblers.
Even semi-casual PvPers have been saying this to TomB et al for a long time now.
The lack of change suggests either a dispute over the theory or being busy elsewhere.
/me shrugs
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Valeria
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Posted - 2003.09.19 22:47:00 -
[6]
Completely agree, and i've brought this up in the past but no one seems to realize what a huge problem it is. What's the point in being able to deal damage at 40+km when your target can just warp away? Multiple ships you say, well since I only have one account it's a bit tricky to use two ships at once. And why should you have to outnumber your opponent? If I engage a Battleship in 1on1 with 425mm rails and torpedoes, the game still forces me to reside within 10km to get a successful kill. Let's just remove all weapons but Hybrid blasters, then.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.19 23:02:00 -
[7]
The thing is I've always viewed the webifiers and warp scramblers we have as frigate class modules. A battleship class webifier would have the range Cao Cao speaks of...but also prolly have powergrid requirements similiar to a long range turret.
If that were true, it'd be balanced in my eyes. Right now my Tempest is at 15,000/15750 powergrid. She's maxed. To use a webifier like that would mean giving up either a 1400mm or a 1200mm and trying to shoehorn a heavy launcher in there somewhere.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Shemaul
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Posted - 2003.09.19 23:04:00 -
[8]
Don't play alone.
Frigates still claim a place in EVE, and their task is to close the enemy under support and do their job.
Abd they do it very well
;)
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.09.19 23:13:00 -
[9]
Quote:
Don't play alone.
Frigates still claim a place in EVE, and their task is to close the enemy under support and do their job.
Abd they do it very well
;)
I agree that in extremely large battle formations with, say, 4 battleships, 8 cruisers and 16 frigates, you MIGHT have a chance to do just this. But is this realistic? I would say perhaps once a month you get a massive battle of this sort in any given region. Witness the NVA vs. m3g4 fight a week or so ago.
The truth of the matter, however, is that 95% of pvp occurs with 1 to 4 ships on either side. But even if you do have larger numbers, it isn't difficult for a battleship equipped with a couple medium guns to take out a frigate that is jamming them and then just warp away because the battleship it is taking damage from is 60km away.
I REALLY like the idea of larger sized scrambling modules such as Jash suggests. A 1,250 powergrid 85 CPU warp disruptor that has a range of 100 km. Fantastic! Same goes with a stasis webbifier.
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Intruders
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Posted - 2003.09.19 23:15:00 -
[10]
Make webifiers and warp scramblers high slot modules, 1 should then carry the scrambler and 1 the webifier. Often a high slot is left open if someone is trying a beefed config. either you have to use a medium weapon or smartbomb(never happens) or a high slot EW component but all of those are pretty useless.
And give them range and strength that depends of how much damage your weapons can produce. More damage from weapons, less range and strength from the EW modules. Existing med slot EW modules like vampires and webifiers could still be tweaked to work as they normaly do or act as an assistant to negate the handicap of the range of the high slot EWs.
Every man lives..but not every man dies!
My sig sux |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.19 23:25:00 -
[11]
Quote:
Don't play alone.
Frigates still claim a place in EVE, and their task is to close the enemy under support and do their job.
Abd they do it very well
;)
Shemaul, frigates work against unprepared pilots or in ambushes. Heavy launchers + FoF Cruise Missiles + Heavy Drones make for a very nasty ride for nearby frigates
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
s0cks
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Posted - 2003.09.19 23:48:00 -
[12]
Edited by: s0cks on 19/09/2003 23:48:35
erm hello...
send in the frigates (rifters with ABs) to warp scramble/disrupt, while the battleships sit back and pummel em.
its tactics - and is basically how fleets should operate. battleships were never intended for 1v1 (as you have quite rightly said). use the range of ships eve provides and to their best ability.
frigates- get in close and warp jam/jam/disrupt/sensor dampen/energy drain or woteva. cruisers for medium range warefare, and battleships to sit back and pummel people from range
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.09.19 23:59:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Edited by: s0cks on 19/09/2003 23:48:35
erm hello...
send in the frigates (rifters with ABs) to warp scramble/disrupt, while the battleships sit back and pummel em.
its tactics - and is basically how fleets should operate. battleships were never intended for 1v1 (as you have quite rightly said). use the range of ships eve provides and to their best ability.
frigates- get in close and warp jam/jam/disrupt/sensor dampen/energy drain or woteva. cruisers for medium range warefare, and battleships to sit back and pummel people from range
Socks... you have obviously not been in combat against more than 1 battleship or multiple cruisers or any type of prepared fleet. Frigates get destroyed in about .5 seconds against any battleship with drones or any type of missile, hell even large smartbombs blow them a new *******.
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Snoop
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:19:00 -
[14]
er combat takes place at 20km because that is usually the distance you land from a gate or station when u exit warp :|
warp jammers have a long enough range and so do webifiers.
i dont see why they should get there range enhanced if people want to use them then they should have to get pretty close. there has to be some negative side to using them
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:32:00 -
[15]
Socks - yes the theory is great but the reality is completely different.
Its part of MOG hsitory that every attempt by devs to enforce a set gameplay methodology has failed - those that adapt to how the players play suceed.
Sort out how most combat occurs not how the theoretical 5% might happen.
remeber - giving high-power long-range sccramblers to battleships does NOT render frigate scramblers useless.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:36:00 -
[16]
Long-range webbers/jammers would be good. 425mm's would be useful then.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
nails
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:36:00 -
[17]
It would be nice if you could stack the range on the warp disruptors. Like two disruptors can do 40k range but still only do -1 warp.
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http://ota-corps.otaku.jp -- Anime l33t level
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Roba
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:41:00 -
[18]
Well.. THOSE SHEILD TRANFERS NEED RANGE!!! Ok there I said it. But really its true. Trying to save a friends ass who has no sheilds and almost no armor really gets you almost killed to. You end up having to get about a few km from him.
Other problem is by the time you get within range even with gang warp its ussually to late.
Same with battles. Needs to be at least 10km 15km would be nice.
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:42:00 -
[19]
I agree with most of what I've read but right now there is a solution (undesirable I know). Tachyons. With a decent tracking mod then they do ridiculous damage on anything from 8km-40km  They are in fact the only game in town for PvP 
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:44:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Long-range webbers/jammers would be good. 425mm's would be useful then.
I did tell you they were crap Josh  Yesterday IIRC 
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:45:00 -
[21]
Quote:
er combat takes place at 20km because that is usually the distance you land from a gate or station when u exit warp :|
warp jammers have a long enough range and so do webifiers.
i dont see why they should get there range enhanced if people want to use them then they should have to get pretty close. there has to be some negative side to using them
The practical effect of this is that real combat can ONLY take place within 20km. Or really, within 10km since it is easy to MWD away unless you are webbed.
If you are arguing that seeing combat take place at these ranges (as it currently does) is a good thing, and that is why you like these modules the way they are, then that is one thing. But I am saying that combat SHOULD take place at greater ranges, so that each ship type can perform its intended task, and that is why change is needed.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:46:00 -
[22]
I haven't tried them, agrizla.
I trusted you implicitly and went for your recommendation on neutron blasters.
"They're ok" is not much of a recommendation but I was at the limits of my patience 
Corp. friends also said 425mm's are good are range but suck up close.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Mynobe Soletae
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:46:00 -
[23]
I like the idea of Cruiser and Battleship -size EW modules. However, currently the only defense frigates have is slow tracking on bigger guns. If you allow them to be warp scrambled and webified at 60km there is no way they'll have even the slightest chance against a battleship.
I'd support the large EW idea only if it has size limitations similar to tracking for guns, so that a battleship can webify another battleship at 60 km, but a battleship should NOT be able to easily webify a frigate at 60 km.
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:47:00 -
[24]
Quote:
remeber - giving high-power long-range sccramblers to battleships does NOT render frigate scramblers useless.
That is very true. The lower powered scramblers would still be very useful.
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Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:53:00 -
[25]
ROFL. (cynical) translation of original post: "CCP please make it easier for me to camp gates solo in my battleship!"
The point of a real battle isn't to destroy the entire opposing force, it is to vanquish it. Some of your opponents run away. Life is like that. If it's even close to a fair fight, the only opponents you need to statis are frigates, which (Kestrels aside) need to close in that range anyways to do any damage or use any EW regardless. To my mind your suggestions are only necessary if you are intent on destroying outnumbered, inferior ships.
Is that all PvP in EVE has come down to? Doesn't sound like fun.
I personally would suggest that we be allowed to select our own warp-in distance from our destination (gates, belts, stations, whatever), to a randomized closeness max of 18 KM +/- 4 KM and distance max of 100 KM (also +/-4). That way camping gets less simple, but you'll have more opportunities to put them Tachyons and 425s to good use. Then, if you wanna close with 'em and lock em, you'll NEEED a couple of Vigils to try it, while you keep him busy dealing with your heavy gun fire (what a BS if really for anyways). Then we'd have more real, and fair battles, with tactics focused on something other than getting first lock, lagging the opponent and disabling their systems before they know what's going on.
This will have a side effect of making lag camping and indy popping less likely, of course, as cautious players will warp in at 50 KM in dangerous areas to get the lay of the land, negotiate a pass for the gate if they trust the pirate and/or run away if the guy is a pod-happy PK ****er. Stupid, lazy or careless players might still warp right up to the gate, and if so you're welcome to their cargo and their frozen corpses :)
Most of these ideas aren't even new. But they'd be nice.
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.09.20 00:59:00 -
[26]
Giving people the chance to set warp-out distance from an object would result in people setting it at around 30km/
30km is a nice run-up for an MWD to get you to top speed.
Tested this with a few corp. friends and it took 4 webifiers to effectively stop an Apoc doing 2km/s - stopping distance was more than 10km though. That's sufficient distance to reach jump point.
I admit, you could stagger your forces to webify from a distance but you'd need to be VERY lucky in judging the direction someone would be warping from.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Ivan Sprauga
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Posted - 2003.09.20 01:00:00 -
[27]
I apologize if some has already mentioned this or tried it, but why don't you send in another, small ship that is fitted for maximum speed and stealth that is armed with webifiers first to get in close and jam your victim while your main offensive force (however big that may be) lies in wait just outside of sensor range.
This way after you get the word that the guy is jammed, everyone warps in and procedes to pound him into oblivion.
Just an idea, you guys think that would work?
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.20 01:01:00 -
[28]
Quote:
ROFL. (cynical) translation of original post: "CCP please make it easier for me to camp gates solo in my battleship!"
The point of a real battle isn't to destroy the entire opposing force, it is to vanquish it.
...
I'll save Cao Cao the trouble of lighting up the blowtorch.
Go back to checkers, it's more your speed.
If that was the point of a real battle, CEOs could just send each other evemails with how many ships they planned to field and total up the costs on both sides to declare the winner.
Quote:
Jericho: Well we got 3 Scorps, a Geddie and 2 Armas
TTI: Damn! 2 Blackbirds, and 3 Dominixes...The pot's yours
The point of a real battle is to kill the person on the wrong side of your guns. Everything else is a minor objective.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.09.20 01:13:00 -
[29]
Quote:
Quote:
I'll save Cao Cao the trouble of lighting up the blowtorch.
lol beat you to it.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.20 01:22:00 -
[30]
Quote:
Quote:
I'll save Cao Cao the trouble of lighting up the blowtorch.
lol beat you to it.
Actually you hadn't...it looks like the forum bug of out of order posting is back 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
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