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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
153
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Posted - 2011.11.21 14:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Omen,
You have access to the database. Have you checked how much isk/day is paid per lowsec PI colony? And what are the average and maximum numbers of colonies per lowsec planet?
In other words, do you have any evidence that POCOs can pay for themselves via taxes? My quick calculations gave me something silly like 20 years for a single P1 export colony. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
153
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 19:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bastet Aiona wrote: Because the POCO's are essentially open pinata's that anyone can attack at any given time,
POCOs don't drop anything on destruction, so you can't really call them a pi+¦ata
Quote:it's our expectation to constantly be harassed with warnings of POCOs under attack from single shot passer bys and timers constantly being set off with no intention of removing the POCO. The time it takes to reinforce a POCO is quite easy with a sizable force, Devs have said they won't send a mail until a sizable amount of damage has been done (to avoid spam). Besides, odds are you won't get there in time before they reinforce, so it shouldn't matter much.
Quote:and we expect a lot of harassment in the early days of our deployment and constant false alarms.
How easily it can be done with no cost to the attacker is the main problem. In Low Sec we don't have warp bubbles or any ability to stop a force from simply warping away and docking. If they choose to hit with no investment, they lose nothing. So they have nothing to defend, nothing to lose and no reason NOT to simply harass and hit the POCO's just because they can. Seems to me you are complaining about how hard it will be to defend POCOs far away from your base.
This is bad how? |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
154
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Posted - 2011.11.22 17:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Shana Matika wrote:pmchem wrote:I am not worried about POCO defenses at the moment, they are low value targets. By design. Well so are noob frigs - but do you see any stop shooting them while traveling through a lowsec gate? Yea, I do. They are not worth the 15 minute GCC and sentry aggro. Of course, if you are already GCCed, you might as well do it, it takes one shot, doesn't cost you anything, and you never know.
Now don't compare one-shotting a noobship with a structure that takes a 10 man gang half an hour to reinforce, plus another 30 minutes a day later to kill (at a time you don't choose). |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
161
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Posted - 2011.11.24 10:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Omen,
Highsec taxes on Sisi for P0 and P1 are still at absurd values that bear no relationship to your devblogs. Instead of being double the TQ values, they are 10x current tax for P0, and 11%-26% for P1. See bug report #118790, still unfiltered.
If this is intended, I'd love to hear your reasoning.
Also, funnily enough, someone deleted the highsec customs office I was using to test, while leaving all the others untouched. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
161
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 10:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Alisarina wrote: Can't you just deny people access if they are under a certain standing with the owning corp? Thought I saw that on a dev blog somewhere, or was that something about how the taxing thing worked? I can't remember.
Yes, you can set both different rates for different standings, or a minimum standing to access it.
Quote:Either way, given the option of allowing hostiles to make ISK from my investment or totally denying them access to making profit, I know which I would choose. Personally, I'd just crank their taxes up as high as possible, but I'm subtle like that.
Quote:Also Jack Dent: Sorry about your CO you where testing with, I needed something to wash down all the tears from people crying about how their low sec planets are now going to be nonviable for them cos of evil taxes. It was delicious. What evil taxes? I think you misunderstood, the current sisi taxes are ridiculously low. To the point where, at 100% tax, you need 20 years to pay for a POCO with a single P1 extraction colony.
I was looking forward to putting up a few POCOs in my lowsec area to farm PI taxes. But with the current rates, I don't see anyone doing that. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
162
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Posted - 2011.11.24 16:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
tengen san wrote: High sec = as intended Low sec = POC holding corps canGÇÖt refuse to take or deny customers, so consequently eliminate any standing prerequisite for low sec. This at least would gain a theoretical interest to use the POC by any others than members of the holding corp to add anticipate tax income, theoretically of course. If a corporation set up in low sec (what I truly do not believe) they focus mainly for their own PI production, so any tax issue is irrelevant anyway as charging no tax gives your own products an price advantage on the market.
Those POCOs are not free. Even if you anchor them yourself, set tax to 0%, you will have to recoup the investment through higher prices.
Quote:For 0.0.; Of course you want to keep your foes off your lawn. So implementation as intended, zero tax for corp members and renters receive an GÇ£out of system GÇ£taxation, probably % share of the product to keep prices in balance. Problem solved for 0.0.! Heh, 0% tax for corp members in 0.0? Have you checked what's the (bounty) tax rate of 0.0 corps? The corp needs some way to pay for those POCOs, plus all the other expenses.
Quote:Still any tax income is just theoretical but bears no practical relevance as even lucrative Planets in 0.1. /0.2.wonGÇÖt attract more than 5 foreign installations. For now even less, as none of the GÇ£publicGÇ¥ users ever can be sure to use them in a productive sense in the long term. At current tax rates, yes. With reasonable tax rates (closer to market value), just a handful of neutral users would be enough to repay the POCO in a couple months.
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
163
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Posted - 2011.11.24 18:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
tengen san wrote:POCO's are corp asset, once the ROI is completed there is no reason for taxation if you price adjustments will gives you market advantage. Higher prices will be a general outcome. After reiciving the ROI itGÇÖs all about who can beat the market price. YouGÇÖre out of competition against anyone selling on a 0 tax scheme. What are your costs? PI is not manufacturing, you don't have input costs once you've paid back your setup. So by that theory, prices should be zero?
Quote:Would you give assurance to the neutral customer to set up a new POCO within the couple monthGÇÖs period once it was taken down defenseless? Are you willing to repeat the effort continually no matter the cost? (Further infestment)
How do you intent to hold your "tax cows" on the planet. Are you able to come up with the resources to assure uninterrupted production flow? (guarding and defending your POCO) Where is the point you decide to give in after Investment . /. Income drops heavily out of balance. Sure, there are no assurances, like pretty much anything else in EVE outside highsec. But what's the risk to them? The cost of setting up a PI installation is very small. If the situation changes, they can always switch to another planet. The POCO owner is taking the largest risk.
As I've said from the first devblog, POCOs are a boon to PVP corps. They are small enough to attract small gangs, which bring fun fights, while they don't have the logistics pain of towers. And at their price, they are cheaper than a bait battleship.
However, that's unrelated to their economic sense.
Quote:They hotdrop you and clear out a system within hours, getting rid of any competition. You will see MerchGÇÖs on 0.0. alliances payroll doing nothing but GÇ£poffGÇ¥ POCOGÇÖs in low. It will become a save source of income for them. You would be surprised on the financial capability of 0.0. alliances and willingnes to bring them in deployment if the make up their expens by gauging the market. You mean just blowing them up? To do that in a remotely efficient way, they'd have to split up forces. I, for one, would welcome the small fights. If they do it to anchor their own, it's easy to keep harassing them until they give up.
Anyway, the whole 0.0 alliance scarecrow is just a fantasy by people who have never experienced the boredom of shooting structures. If you go into alliance chat and say "Everyone fleet up, we are going to shoot down lowsec POCOs for the next 3 hours", you'll see half the alliance logoff. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
163
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Posted - 2011.11.24 19:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
Heh. Sieged dreads away from station/pos? \o/
Each of those dreads is worth a dozen POCOs. Without a support fleet, they are easily killed by 10 battleships. You do the math. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
163
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Posted - 2011.11.24 19:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
tengen san wrote:Its not about the dreads, its about the change of CO's in player hands was intended to foster 0.0. income with low sec carring all the disadvantage. No, it was intended to create more player conflict, and the dreads are very much about conflict. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
164
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Posted - 2011.11.25 09:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
From the devblog thread, the wiki page listing the new base tax values is up:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice
I'd say this changes things a lot. POCO income for P1 or P2 extraction planets is now 144mil/BIF or 3.2mil/AIF per month, at 10% taxes. On a busy planet, that should repay the office in a couple months. |
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
164
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Posted - 2011.11.25 09:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
Shana Matika wrote:Again: Conflicts are only possible as long as 2 or more Groups show up. I don't see this happen here. Group A will chose a time where they are most comfort with - which will be some time while Group B (CO Owner) is not arround and start shooting their CO just to kill their CO. Slightly derailing thread, but anyway...
There's a reinforcement timer that ensures it comes at a time Group B is comfortable with. And, even if Group B doesn't come, the timer is visible system-wide for the 24+ hours the POCO is reinforced. This provides an excellent beacon to any PVP group in the area to come shoot at group A, group B, or both.
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
171
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Posted - 2011.11.27 13:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Tornado/Naga/Talos/Oracle...
fit for gank over tank... they will be an "easy" and "cheap" fleet that can throw out DPS like crazy. Yea, you just need 10-15 of these to reinforce or kill a POCO in 20 minutes.
On the other hand, that fleet can be countered by a well balanced t1 cruiser/destroyer/BC fleet. Fun fights.
Quote:I am becoming more and more convinced that CCP is doing things to start breaking up the "Great Wall of Carebear". I'm not sure what this means
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
172
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Posted - 2011.11.27 21:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
Oh, I get it now, I think we are on the same page.
POCOs are relatively low-cost (and low income), they can be killed with low-cost fleets, and so can be defended with low-cost fleets. This lowers the barrier of entry for "meaningful" PVP. Which is great.
There's one big obstacle that keeps highseccers out of lowsec PVP, tho. The sec status losses. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
173
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Posted - 2011.11.28 09:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
I see a fair amount of highsec types playing "anti-pirate" in lowsec, and some that go GCC a few times, then dissapear for a while running missions until their sec is positive again.
For that same reason the GCC when shooting a POCO will discourage highsec corps/alliances from shooting pirate offices. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
187
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Posted - 2011.12.01 15:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
I took a look around minmatar lowsec early. Most systems still have their full Interbus CO set. I didn't find any system where the Interbus COs had been destroyed and not replaced (didn't check planet count, but nothing stood out).
I found 5 systems with at least one POCOs. All were open to neutral use, most of them either at 10% tax or just below. Only one had a tax about highsec (15%). All of them seemed to belong to PVP corps.
Of course, it's just starting, but it looks promising. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
187
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Posted - 2011.12.01 15:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:Jack Dant wrote:I took a look around minmatar lowsec early. Most systems still have their full Interbus CO set. I didn't find any system where the Interbus COs had been destroyed and not replaced (didn't check planet count, but nothing stood out).
I found 5 systems with at least one POCOs. All were open to neutral use, most of them either at 10% tax or just below. Only one had a tax about highsec (15%). All of them seemed to belong to PVP corps.
Of course, it's just starting, but it looks promising. highsec tax is 10%, low/null is 17% with interbus Read again, I was talking about actual Player Owned COs in lowsec, not NPC ones.
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
187
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Posted - 2011.12.01 15:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:you read again. you said "Only one had a tax about highsec (15%)". Which is an incorrect statement as that is closer to the low/null sec tax not the highsec one. Oh, ok. I meant the one POCO above highsec tax was at 15%, not that highsec tax was 15%. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
242
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Posted - 2011.12.12 15:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
Are you sure they are using the planets themselves? Some people are setting up their offices at very high tax to bait fights. Can't say whether it will work, as it's not that hard to just move to a more reasonable system. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
253
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Posted - 2011.12.17 12:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
pmchem wrote:I kind of miss the controversy and panic of 8 pages ago.
GSF is taxing its POCOs to pay for their install and defense and things are working quite well so far. Any special news from highsec or lowsec? So far, they've been a good driver of conflict in lowsec. Dreads have died reinforcing them, carriers have died repairing them, and random people completely unrelated to attackers or defenders have shown up for timers expecting fights and gotten them.
Most lowsec POCOs are taxed at 8-10%, so the motivation to go to lowsec is the same as it was pre-patch: more resources per planet. A few are taxed at very high levels to bait fights, but I'm not sure that's actually working.
What I have noticed in the last week or so is a big increase in the number of people using lowsec POCOs, so profitability is more predictable now. Still, the ROI is a bit too long, and the income too low, and most interbus COs are still in place.
If that trend continues, the devs might want to lower resource depletion drastically, so more people can use the same planet and so the income becomes more concentrated on a few POCOs. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
254
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Posted - 2011.12.18 23:34:00 -
[20] - Quote
The timer is visible to anyone who has POCOs on brackets and is in system. In busy systems, that's a lot of people who know of a time and place a fight might go down. Makes me wonder whether making towers (and their timers) visible system wide would be a good idea. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
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