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Koebmand
Silverflames
0
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Posted - 2014.04.05 11:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
From reading the thread about the pilot project for painting ships, all suggestions for ship painting seems to revolve around being able to apply 1 or 2 paint jobs to a given ship.
I don't understand why painting ships should be done from a small selection of complete paint jobs. It makes the paint jobs never hit exactly what the players really want.
Why not give each ship "slots"* of the same colour and then the player the ability to paint each slot from a selection of 256 colours. This will give a 2 slot ship 65536 different looks, there will never be that many different total paint jobs made for a single ship.
Make the colours an attribute of the unpacked ship. This would make the ship maintain the same name, and even for a 4 slot ship there will only have to be transmitted 32** bytes more over the network to communicate the colour scheme for a given ship. That is the same bandwidth usage as adding 4 letters to the name.
Programming wise for the database, all it takes is adding 1 attribute that is a 32** bits long.
Programming wise for rendering the ship, I would guess it is a bit more work, but don't know how the ships were created and it could basically already be in place and have been used to make the current models. I am not a model designer and know very little of the tools they use to make the cool effects when colouring models.
Make the paint a player crafted item, possible with materials / blueprints from LP or NeX store whatever, like the finished paint jobs are now. But give us the choice of selecting the colour of our own ship.
*Each slot would have a player selected colour, like the Stratios is currently white and red by default, then the player could choose and make the white area cobalt blue and the red area gold instead, or hello kitty with pink and purple if you really want to mistreat the poor ship. a third slot could be used to allow to change the colour of the light from the windows, again with the colour the player think fits their choice.
** Or if you want to optimize the storage use in the database and bandwidth use, a 4 colour scheme can be stored as a 10 bit value, 2 first bits telling which slot it is, the next 8 bit which of the 256 colours that slot is. And if there are ships I have missed that would require more than 4 slots, 16 bit (equivalent to 2 letters in a name) would give 256 different slots. |
Joe Boirele
Lords 0f Justice
Lords Of Stars
18
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Posted - 2014.04.06 00:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
The problem is that every ship gets a separate identifier. The current system doesn't allow for you to have a variant of a ship, and so you start getting a separate identifier, model, stats, market entry, and so on for every color combination. At least that's my understanding of the problem, and why CCP is starting out slow to gauge interest (so they can decide if the amount of work necessary to change the system will be worth it).
Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.
Might makes right! |
Teochoilae
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.04.06 08:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
I think instead of paint skins, you should be able to have your corporation and/or alliance symbol on your ship. When I played Battleground Europe they started doing that with all the vehicles and it worked out well. I like to think that CCP has better developers than Cornered Rat does, but I could be wrong. |
Mag's
the united
SCUM.
17007
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Posted - 2014.04.06 09:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
I can see the attraction in changing your ship colour. But I see absolutely no attraction in buying a limited run BPC in order to do it.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Hesod Adee
Kiwis In Space
311
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Posted - 2014.04.06 10:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
There are many possible ways to implement ship skins/repainting. All of them will do better than the current kludge except in one area: The kludge has been working for years (shuttles), every other solution needs to be coded into Eve.
If CCP decides that they want ship skins in Eve, that point will be irrelevant. But CCP hasn't decided on ship skins. They wanted to see how popular they would be before CCP invested time and money coding them. Hence the kludge. It's not pretty. It scales horribly as the number of skins increases. But it's cheap.
If enough people prove they are interested in skins by buying them, CCP will implement a better method for skins. If we don't get enough people buying skins, then the skins produced by the kludge will be the last ship skins we see. |
Saberlily Whyteshadow
Perkone
Caldari State
43
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Posted - 2014.04.06 10:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mag's wrote:I can see the attraction in changing your ship colour. But I see absolutely no attraction in buying a limited run BPC in order to do it.
Same with me, I just hope CCP dont get wrong or lower numbers because those that are interested in this dont want to buy BPC's (even if they are cheap or I just dont like their color scheme.) |
Koebmand
Silverflames
2
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Posted - 2014.04.06 11:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
Joe Boirele wrote:The current system doesn't allow for you to have a variant of a ship
Wrong, to mention a few variant attributes I know ships have: Insurance and starbase password.
To mention a lot I am pretty sure they have: What is fit in each slot and what is in the cargo.
There are probably others as well. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1299
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Posted - 2014.04.06 14:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
currently wasnt doable, but CCP want to know if there is actual demand for this rather than just a vocal few.
so they made a way to change some ships within the current capabilities of the mechanics. there is popular demand for it to be something like an extra slot, like a rig. but i dnt think CCP are going to put the dev time on this that it needs until they know the players really want it.
the more player demand on customisable ships, the more dev time that can be put on it. so fork out ur AUR. If/when the system is done in earnest, u will likely see Devs considering all the options on how it will work.
TL:DR
buy some BPC's.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Koebmand
Silverflames
2
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Posted - 2014.04.06 14:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
I know the current way isnt necesarely how it is intended. There is a thread for the current pilot program, debating that is not the intend of this thread.
This thread is because everywhere I look, I only see variations of the current program as the "final solution idea that CCP wants to know if I would like". So I wanted to try start a debate on why such a solution would be better than what I propose - and would like. So far it failed greatly obviously.
P.S. Pretty new, don't have the money to buy 50 BPCs I have no intend of ever using because they are for ships I don't like + ugly, just to tell CCP I like to paint my ship if its done in a way that provides an option I like. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1299
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Posted - 2014.04.06 18:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
ive re-read the thread.
the idea of an extra slot is overwhelmingly popular. to which the reply was:
CCP Phantom wrote:
This requires more development time, and while an interesting option, we would first like to see if there is enough demand for ship paints. I think everyone can agree that it would be not so good to spend resources on a project that no one wants in the end.
Better start small, see if people like things, examine things to improve, gather great ideas and then - if it is worth the time - create the full system.
Please remember that this version is just a pilot project!
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Koebmand
Silverflames
2
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Posted - 2014.04.06 21:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
As I understand it, the slot being discussed in your reference is still for a total paint job, not individual colours picked by the player. The slot suggested is just to add the paint job as a type of rig instead of a new ship type, but still only 2 looks, Original and "paint job by CCP".
My idea is completely different, where the player get to mix the colours making up the paint job, what colour light comes out the windows etc, which would make hundreds of thousands different ships instead of just 2.
Actually I should have rechecked what was written in the morning before finishing this post, several of the posts in this thread has the same idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4438220 |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1299
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 21:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
yeah, players have wanted to do their own paint jobs for years. CCP are aware of it, and looking at the CSM8 minutes, as soon as CCP brought the new ship skins idea to them, the CSM immediately came back with wanting unique corp/alliance paint jobs, and also used the 'rig' idea.
CCP just keep saying, 'one thing at a time. right now were are trying to measure demand'
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Dyscordia
Super Elite Friendship Club
13
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Posted - 2014.04.07 02:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
Never saw the point of custom paint jobs. The game is fine as is.
Let's say there is overwhelming support for this as the #1 must have feature ever and an entire batch of CSM members who were voted in under the custom paint job platform are continually spewing how much this feature is absolutely necessary to CCP and just a "cool idea" to handful of forum goers. Let's say it's technically possible but rendering everybody's personal paint job is going to slow the servers just a bit with x amount of ships are on grid, then it's DEFINITELY not worth it. Ever.
Let's get past lag issues, work on balancing null, and get to balancing all other ships before we spend 1000s of dev hours so you can giggle at your pink hello kitty Manticore while you station spin.
If implemented, it should cost you A LOT of isk or $$$ to customize your ship. it should show up in my kill mails as well and calculated in the value of the kill mail. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1307
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Posted - 2014.04.07 03:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
not an expert, but:
1) can be turned off on a client
2) can auto turn off when a fight gets big
3) the paintjobs themselves may be client side, it just takes a retrieval by the server. dnt know if it would be any more demanding than showing someones name, corp, alliance on overview.
4) maybe set to render only when u 'look at' like guns
5) CCP has never said anything about any damaging effects it could have on lag as far as i know.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Northern Associates.
290
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Posted - 2014.04.07 03:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
My thoughts were more around a 4+ Slot Approach
1st Slot - Pattern Slot (Similar to the existing BPCs, may even be a form of BPC that players can make from BPOs or limited edition ones from NEX/LP stores)
2nd Slot - Primary Colour (Base Colour)
3rd Slot - Secondary Colour (Trim Colour)
4th Slot - Tertiary Colour (Lights etc)
Additional Slots based on the Pattern that might require additional colours for various things.
Basic ones that should be available as BPOs are basically the existing ship Patterns, so that you can do things like swap out the Ugly Caldari Gun Metal Blue for the Fine Amarrian Gold :P |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1222
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Posted - 2014.04.07 03:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
The disadvantages to picking your own colours are.
- Invalidates any unique corp ship skins since you can just pick colours to match yourself.
- Allows for truly terrible colour matches which make EVE less harsh, less 'real' and far more cartoon theme park.
I am on the preference of preset skins that can be applied rig like to any slot.
This keeps the uniqueness of each skin as separate, means they can ensure that the colours look reasonable on most hulls at least, and that it fits into EVE's scheme normally.
Of course I also want Corp/Alliance logo's regardless of which option.
And I want NPC Corp skins in the LP store, the Aur store should be special skins like pure white, pure black, punketris pink, silver & gold. |
Meandering Milieu
House Aratus
Fatal Ascension
22
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Posted - 2014.04.07 03:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
Joe Boirele wrote:The problem is that every ship gets a separate identifier. The current system doesn't allow for you to have a variant of a ship, and so you start getting a separate identifier, model, stats, market entry, and so on for every color combination. At least that's my understanding of the problem, and why CCP is starting out slow to gauge interest (so they can decide if the amount of work necessary to change the system will be worth it).
Make it so repackaging ( To sell ) destroys the paint, and so that contracting simply lists the paint as a mod.
Edit: Also, currently I'm not sure the immediate trial will entirely work. None of the current blueprints are out for ships I fly. If I could do custom jobs I'd paint every ship I own, even ones I intend on losing in a fire. |
Kasife Vynneve
Capital Storm.
The Storm Collective
23
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Posted - 2014.04.07 09:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
Something akin to dye mods in Swtor would be good. 2 pre selected colours (of which a broad range would be selectable) that you can slot into a space on the fitting window. Treat similarly to rigs in that once its on its there till destroyed.
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Koebmand
Silverflames
5
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Posted - 2014.04.08 01:21:00 -
[19] - Quote
Dyscordia wrote:Let's say it's technically possible but rendering everybody's personal paint job is going to slow the servers just a bit with x amount of ships are on grid, then it's DEFINITELY not worth it. Ever.
Rendering isn't done on the server.
If you allow each ship to have 32 different patterns / camoflages that each consist of 8 different colours and give the player 256 colours to pick from, all that need loaded from the server and transferred over the network is 16 bits (equivalent to 2 letters in a name).
* 5 bits to ID the pattern, 3 bits to ID each of the slots in the pattern, and 8 bits to ID the colour the slot has, loaded and transmitted as 1 unit of 16 bit. then split and translated client side. Depending on implementation it is possible this can be 32 or 64 bits for far greater variation without adding any extra load to the server. |
Koebmand
Silverflames
5
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Posted - 2014.04.08 01:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
- Allows for truly terrible colour matches which make EVE less harsh, less 'real'
Yeah, because Hello Kitty doesn't exist in the real world, so letting it into the game would definitely seem unreal.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1229
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Posted - 2014.04.08 02:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
Koebmand wrote:
How does it make a difference if I get a corp skin to get a blue and gold arbitrator or I paint it blue and gold myself?
Because one way makes the blue & gold scheme an achievement for everyone else that gets it through the corp.
The other way makes their achievement in getting that limited edition paint job pointless because you can just copy it any time you want to now. |
Koebmand
Silverflames
5
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Posted - 2014.04.08 02:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
There isn't necessarily less effort in obtaining a bucket of paint than there is in getting a Navy ship if it is those you are referring to.
If it is special edition ships you are referring it, with how Eve is you can't even undock them without they get blown up. No fun in that.
I can see how customization threaten people with billions invested in current special edition ships, and I honestly see no good solution to the problem.
Not having customization at release was in my opinion an error that needs to be fixed. How to probably compensate people with time (ISK) invested in special edition ships, which as a side effect will lose a lot of value, I have no good idea for. But I do not think that shortsighted ideas like SE ships should stop Eve from getting a feature that to many people - not all I know - adds a whole new depth to the game. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1229
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 05:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
CCP have always said that trading in those ships is a risk.
However your proposal utterly destroys the market for any special colour editions of ships.
Having set ship skins doesn't, because those skins can remain unique. And just become a much simpler implementation of a paint skin, rather than needing an entirely separate market entry therefore database clutter than they do now.
They can also have them as highly expensive LP options. not all skins need be identical after all.
While if all I need is a bucket of blue, then I can just replicate it easy.
You asked for downsides to being able to custom paint your own, I've given you several downsides. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1320
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 13:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
the unique ships ur talking about arent just extra skins. they have an entire new ID and description. their uniqueness is not under threat by making ur own colours.
and if someone wants to make a pink thorax, i am totally fine with that. if u dnt like it? dnt look at the ship, or turn unique skins off or something.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Koebmand
Silverflames
6
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Posted - 2014.04.08 13:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
The intend of both my proposel of player picked colours and full paint jobs is to destroy the special edition ships you can't fly and can't get in the look you like idea. So yeah if you like not having customization, customization in itself is a downside.
But it does not make it impossible to keep special ships apart from the normal ships, it is simply a matter of making a special ships in a pattern that isn't available for the player to pick - or actually go ahead and make the special ship special with a different model* - that the player then can customize - the possibilities are endless.
Special Edition ships are as much database clutter as allowing players to paint their ship. The ship itself make up the additional catagory that the painting needs in the market. Weather it ends up with free paint or fixed set paintjobs, it seems it will end up with an additional type of rig / module for the paint to fitted in, and that will increase database by a ship attribute over the special edition ships, but full customization isn't worse than set paint jobs in this sense, both need that - and both will lower the need for additional ship types for every look, which is also stuff in the database.
I have so far liked all your previous posts as I read them because I found them informative, but now you seem to not even be reading mine, and just throwing out random stuff about database and market clutter that has the same downsides weather you choose free paint picking or total paint jobs.
To repeat myself, the bucket of blue doesnt have to be any easier to get than the finished skin. Your downside to us picking our own colours over set paint jobs is based on the paint being free and endless and the set paint jobs hard to get and valuable, I do not think it should be that, I think the paint should be player made and consumed on use. But it definitely need to not be 20 times the value of the ship as seems to be the tendency with the pilot project. Regardless, whichever solution can be made free or valuable, if anything the free to pick paint has more flexibility than the set paint jobs in this area.
Yes you have previously given good insights, and I appreciate the time you have spend brining them, as I hope other readers of the thread do.
* Doesn't have to be anything big, add a rear bumper with a sticker for example. |
Koebmand
Silverflames
6
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Posted - 2014.04.08 13:59:00 -
[26] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:and if someone wants to make a pink thorax, i am totally fine with that. if u dnt like it? dnt look at the ship, or turn unique skins off or something.
Or blow it up, Eve is after all, a very free game. With all the goods and bads that comes with it. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1321
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 14:50:00 -
[27] - Quote
Koebmand wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:and if someone wants to make a pink thorax, i am totally fine with that. if u dnt like it? dnt look at the ship, or turn unique skins off or something. Or blow it up, Eve is after all, a very free game. With all the goods and bads that comes with it.
ineed.
also, special ships come with special badges. i dnt know, but recreating existing corp badges will likely be difficult if not impossible
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Koebmand
Silverflames
6
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Posted - 2014.04.08 16:30:00 -
[28] - Quote
As I understand it you make the corp logo by selecting a background, a middle item, a front item and a colour for each, from some pretty predefined set ups. Please correct me if I am wrong on how the corp logos work.
Supplying the data to do this on ships would be easy, just use an identifier like the one I exampled for paints and very few bits needs to be loaded / transmitted from the server to have the same logo on your ships wings as on your corp info page.
All the work would be on the client side, where there would have to be made a function that picks the desired elements and draws them on the wings. If I am right each logo would in effect put as much strain on the graphic card / memory at the client as a full free choice paint job for the ship. But not a graphics person, so can be off here. Eve has a lot of work room before there can be talk of any kind of strain on modern graphic cards though, except for people playing 16 clients, they might need to opt out of such customizations. |
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