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DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
50
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 00:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
As an afterthought, I searched the online forums and found Mara Rinn's post (The CSM minutes are out!) mentioning the term market hangar for a pos, though from the description her pos market hangar is used to compete with nul npc stations.
So, I was thinking of how to give wormholers pseudo-market access without actually plopping a station in each wormhole. How about a pos module that adds a Market Hangar to the tower. Players can only buy/sell items via the market window while in the pos bubble of a pos anchored in a wormhole.
Corporation items placed in the hangar can then be purchased from the corporation sell orders (and automatically moved to your cargohold or personal hangar). Items you want to sell (to corp buy orders) are sold from your cargohold or your personal hangar. Ten orders is the limit per market hangar. Click on the market window while in the pos to see the Pos Market Hangar items listed for that pos.
Of course, corporation leadership can set custom prices, but an option to show regional price from a highsec market hub is also needed. Otherwise, using eve-central.com to obtain prices is the fallback pricing method. |

DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
55
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 08:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Is this a bad idea? Did this get missed on a busy forums day? Or is it that wormholers have nothing positive to contribute?
Mara Rinn had the original idea to help wormhole occupants, so hopefully I have added to her idea.
OP is pretty much the idea, though it lacks a proper amount of fleshing-out. Corporations buy/sell orders are used, which requires a corp member with roles and the trade skills to do so. Beyond that, I have no idea how to implement in a wormhole. I am open to any ideas. |

Seliah
0mega.
127
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 12:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
I don't really see the point of this. It would be very complicated mechanics for very little use, as I don't think many corps in WH would basically sell items to themselves. And this shouldn't even be allowed at all in k-space. |

Kasife Vynneve
Capital Storm. Black Flag Society
32
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 15:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
I thought WH dwellers only traded fire with other WH dwellers... |

DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
55
|
Posted - 2014.04.23 22:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
Perfect location for selling illegal drugs to corpies, since the combat boosters (except synth boosters) are illegal in high sec. The "off the grid" aspect of the market hangar fits well with the dark side of eve; drugs and other illegal activities need to be accessible corp-wide but not listed on regional markets. |

DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
57
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 12:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
How do most wormholers trade goods? Via the market, contracts, anchored containers, jetcans, or via the public hangar of a pos. Whatever method is simple and quick is going to best allow WH-people to conduct transfers of items. Docking in a station is required to use market, contracts, and station trading. Anchored container-trading lacks tracking (wallet transactions) and along with public hangar-trading lacks security, unless you want to change roles/container password after every transaction. Point is some sort of official trade functionality is needed in wormholes.
IMHO, pos modules that improve financial capabilities (i.e. trade via market window) of WH-people will increase WH population. |

Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
184
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 17:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
this would have a certain niche use - not sure if it would be worth it though, unless there were multiple allied corps in a WH (C5/C6) For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |

DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
58
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 00:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
Location is the key. The pos has to be anchored in a wormhole. Anyone in the pos shield can make purchases; corp leadership for that pos places sell orders. Therefore, a market pos with tens of anchored market hangars would allow maybe hundreds of items to be listed and sold without leaving the wormhole. And all purchases tracked via the wallet.
While offline, your normal k-space market orders allow others to buy/sell items to/from you; I think this pos mod does that for wormholes. Otherwise, selling items in wormholes requires you to be online and lacks tracking via wallet transactions. A pos market hangar can change that. |

Arronicus
Ravens' Nest Outlaw Horizon.
954
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 00:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
This seems to only complicate in-corp trade, particularly through any sort of '10 order' limitations. Considering noone from out of corp is going to be coming into your wormhole poses and accessing anything, I think that this would be a pointless feature, particularly when you want to limit the value of your assetts in wormholespace at any given time. A much better solution that can be undertaken by a wormhole corp is to provide an ordering/delivery service, where one player makes a list of items they desire, provides them to the service provider, who then picks them up from highsec and hauls them in, for a fee.
TL;DR, idea that will serve little use, and see even less. |

DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
58
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 00:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Arronicus wrote:This seems to only complicate in-corp trade, particularly through any sort of '10 order' limitations. Considering noone from out of corp is going to be coming into your wormhole poses and accessing anything, I think that this would be a pointless feature, particularly when you want to limit the value of your assetts in wormholespace at any given time. A much better solution that can be undertaken by a wormhole corp is to provide an ordering/delivery service, where one player makes a list of items they desire, provides them to the service provider, who then picks them up from highsec and hauls them in, for a fee.
TL;DR, idea that will serve little use, and see even less. What would you suggest the order limitation be?
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DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
59
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 16:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
Arronicus wrote:idea that will serve little use, and see even less. How can you be so sure? I am not aware of a prior attempt by CCP to add a pseudo-market functionality to wormhole pos's. I say give the kids a new toy and let them figure out the best way to play with it.
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DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
70
|
Posted - 2014.06.05 06:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
Seliah wrote:I don't really see the point of this. It would be very complicated mechanics for very little use, as I don't think many corps in WH would basically sell items to themselves. And this shouldn't even be allowed at all in k-space. Wormholers and markets currently do not go together, but I feel this idea can bridge that gap. I say market access is needed because often players do not play 24/7. Markets are open 24/7, thus a pos market hangar would give 24/7 market access to transferring items between wormholers.
As far as your k-space comment, OP stated this pos mod can only be anchored in a wormhole so sounds like you need to learn how to read. Here is the part you missed, "Players can only buy/sell items via the market window while in the pos bubble of a pos anchored in a wormhole."
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Saint Germain
Sekundu
2
|
Posted - 2014.06.05 07:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
Have them in low sec too, for selling any sort of black market goods. They should be separate from the regional market though, only viewable when docked. |

epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
802
|
Posted - 2014.06.05 08:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
Due to the nature of the pos mechanic, this would be more like ones children selling things to each other, we give the otther person something they give us isk, if someone cheats their brothers, mum smacks.
There is absolutely no need for this at all any more than you need a shop in your lounge. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
608
|
Posted - 2014.06.05 09:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Due to the nature of the pos mechanic, this would be more like ones children selling things to each other, we give the otther person something they give us isk, if someone cheats their brothers, mum smacks.  There is absolutely no need for this at all any more than you need a shop in your lounge.
There is a need for this. Atleast in a wormhole. If you look at a w-space corp from a leader-perpective, this just simplifies so many things. Not only that, but having hulls+fittings in your market will also allow you to react accordingly to - for example- a T1 cruiser-gang running into your door.
By the same logic, you could comfortably remove the market from all nullsec-stations and no one would care cause a station is usually inhabited by a certain corp/alliance to start with. They should really make moves to improve POSes towards station-performance (repairing burnt-out modules, option to upgrade your med clone level, contracts/market for example)
And please no *but sleepers/wormholes are unknown/dangerous* BS, there is nothing unknown about 4:30 to run four escalation waves or moros+orca will collapse a hole. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
71
|
Posted - 2014.06.05 21:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Due to the nature of the pos mechanic, this would be more like ones children selling things to each other, we give the otther person something they give us isk, if someone cheats their brothers, mum smacks.  There is absolutely no need for this at all any more than you need a shop in your lounge. There is a need for this. Atleast in a wormhole. If you look at a w-space corp from a leader-perpective, this just simplifies so many things. Not only that, but having hulls+fittings in your market will also allow you to react accordingly to - for example- a T1 cruiser-gang running into your door. By the same logic, you could comfortably remove the market from all nullsec-stations and no one would care cause a station is usually inhabited by a certain corp/alliance to start with. They should really make moves to improve POSes towards station-performance (repairing burnt-out modules, option to upgrade your med clone level, contracts/market for example) And please no *but sleepers/wormholes are unknown/dangerous* BS, there is nothing unknown about 4:30 to run four escalation waves or moros+orca will collapse a hole. Added to OP. 
|

Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
417
|
Posted - 2014.06.05 21:31:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bring destructible stations of some sort to W-space. Problem solved and much pew pew content created in the process. |

DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
71
|
Posted - 2014.06.05 22:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Bring destructible stations of some sort to W-space. Problem solved and much pew pew content created in the process. Pos's fill that role, though market/contracts access is lacking. In order to do as you suggest, the need is for either 1 or 2 below, or some other option I have not thought of.
1) Wormhole Stations, scaled in size similar to pos sizes (s, m, and l), because a station is quite large if I remember correctly. (750,000 m3 for Amarr Factory/Caldari Research/Gallente Administrative/Minmatar Service Outpost Platform)
2) Pos mods for access to market/contracts/trading in wormholes. To me, this seems the simpler of the two options.
To be honest, smaller wormholes can not financially support larger wormhole corporations. Class 4 WH only just begin to have trade/logistics issues due to no market/contracts/trade; living in class 5 and 6 wormholes makes it obvious. |

PopeUrban
El Expedicion
86
|
Posted - 2014.06.05 22:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
The obvious answer here is that people were never actually intended to live in wspace in the first place, and the hardships of doing so are implicit in its design. Every single change that make dwelling in Wspace easier and more predictable is another change that destroys the very essence of wspace. It's not an accident that the API endpoints were changed you know. CCP doesn't WANT wspace living to be convenient or easy because it's overall intent is and always has been space that's phenomenally hard or impossible to "own" or "fortify" Current wspace residents are anomalies the system was never designed for and should not be catered to as the choice to take up residence in wspace should always be undertaken with the assumption that it is a place you were never meant to live, that it's going to be a pain to do, and that you aren't going to enjoy even a slice of the infrastructure of k-space. That's an intentional and necessary part of wormhole play. The more infrastructure you add to wspace, the more it just becomes kspace 2.0
I've said this before, but a better option would be the removal of all identity information about wormholes entirely, including mass limits, lifetime, etc. and a matching increase in payouts for blue stuff. Wormhole collapse should be a constant fear, not an easily mitigated and knowable factor that I can map for my whole corp with a little extra software and web browsing. |

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
609
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 00:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
There is no reason for discrimination. Just cause we don't have stargates doesn't mean we don't deserve to get other cool stuff to make things we're already doing easier in the future. Like handing out a corp-archon cause the only pilot at the moment doesn't have one. Or handing out X-Instinct and Drop without making sure no one takes all the dope. Just go, grab one from the vending machine. Doesn't need a director to open the garage door. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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Virgil Armstrong
Alice In Wonderlands
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 09:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
I very much like this idea within an industrial context.
For instance, there are corp members making drones and want to sell them on the public market, but also to corp members.
Another example are gas miners wanting to sell gas to the members that run refineries.
Right now this can of course be facilitated with containers, eve mails, forum buy/sell orders etc. but this is not ideal. Maybe you want to sell 100 drones, but members wants to buy only 10. This requires 10 separate elements of communication and transaction with members who might not be on at the same time.
PopeUrban wrote:CCP doesn't WANT wspace living to be convenient or easy because it's overall intent is and always has been space that's phenomenally hard or impossible to "own" or "fortify" Current wspace residents are anomalies the system was never designed for and should not be catered to as the choice to take up residence in wspace should always be undertaken with the assumption that it is a place you were never meant to live, that it's going to be a pain to do, and that you aren't going to enjoy even a slice of the infrastructure of k-space. That's an intentional and necessary part of wormhole play. The more infrastructure you add to wspace, the more it just becomes kspace 2.0
I've said this before, but a better option would be the removal of all identity information about wormholes entirely, including mass limits, lifetime, etc. and a matching increase in payouts for blue stuff. Wormhole collapse should be a constant fear, not an easily mitigated and knowable factor that I can map for my whole corp with a little extra software and web browsing.
Sure, wormhole space should be hard, but I hear PopeUrban talking mostly about the intel side. If you want the infrastructure side also hard, where would you draw the line? Why even be able to manufacture stuff in a WH POS? CCP didn't design the current POS mechanics for it to be harder in wormhole space. There simply is no market pos module because k-space already had markets.
I do not mind for the intel gathering side being harder, but I would like to see more industrials moving to WH space, and being able to setup larger industrial chains and have some infrastructure support for that, and not being totally dependent on meta-mechanics.
In my opinion the design for POS market modules should be fairly simple, especially in the light of CCP's 6 week agile release cycle. There is no need to connect to the public market, just an extension of a standard POS array. |

Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
206
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 10:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
This is redundant. All items a corporation might need for its members can be distributed through the ship and corp hanger arrays.
The closest you could get would them opening up wh to sov and building outposts or something there, along with mebe those cool player-built gates they keep taunting us with to link up with other wormholes. |

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1488
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 23:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote: Not only that, but having hulls+fittings in your market will also allow you to react accordingly to - for example- a T1 cruiser-gang running into your door.
"Why we do what we do every night pinky! We drop 4 Prot's and 6 Guardians on it like always! Muahahaha!"
regarding the OP,
- how many market slots do you think this needs?
I mean, a decent market in hisec has the capability to hold all 8-9000 or whatever (nerds, find the number) of possible items on the market. In w-space you may not need Yan-Jung Relic items and the like, but even setting up markets with slots sufficient for ammunition alone would have about 300 different types. Even if you just consider popular ammunition types, you're well over 120 different types of ammo.
- Who is going to use it?
As pointed out before, a lot of corporations have a public hangar bay, usually slot 1, where the corporation places items (such as ammo) for general usage. This doesn't break anything, it may cost your corp some cash, and probably ends up stolen or lost if the CHA is blown up, but so what? It obviates the need to install a market facility which is on a per system (in fact, per POS) basis.
- On that note, think about the programming needed.
The market function in EVE is simply a database functionality similar in operation to a publicly viewable webshop which allows the users to browse all available instances of market calls and puts. This is in essence similar to a stock market, restricted region by region. To create a new market for one POS would require CCP to create a functional database FROM SCRATCH whenever you anchor a POS Market Array, and then uninstall the database structure LIVE and in REAL TIME whenever you unachor it and decide to move it away from your SMA because your mother loving Naglfar bumps off it. Nope. Nope, nope, nope, nope. Outposts, you will say, are similar. No. outposts are large, hard to manufacture, one per system instances which are added to an existing database (one per k-space region) with plenty of advanced warning to CCP to prepare the database to handle the incoming instance. They also cannot be uninstalled.
- Who's going to sell that much anyway?
I am one of the very, very few toons in EVE with Tycoon trained to level 4. At level 4 i have 329 maximum open market orders. If we had a POS Market Array I would, personally, not even be able to fill all ammo orders on market myself. The majority of toons have less than 100K skill points in Trade. How functional would a wormhole market be? Especially considering it will likely be available to corporation only. Even in nullsec, you can conduct economic warfare via remote buy and sell orders in regions where you cannot dock due to standings.
- Will such markets be available on the market browser?
In nullsec, as said above, you can jump into eg; Curse or Deklein, and open your market tab and prior to an invasion, drop 200M ISK to buy up all the cynosural field generator modules on market, and 500M to clear out the stocks of Liquid Ozone, and re-seed them onto market at astronomical prices. how will this work in wormholes? Is the market only visible to members of a corporation? is it only visisble to those within 3km of the POS Market Array? if not, someone can drop into system and clean you out and flip your goods.
- What happens to the goods on market when the array is unanchored or destroyed?
Thanks, CEO dude, for letting eg; Blood union vape our POS. i just lost 30 fitted Guardian hulls i was sure you'dd buy for an exhoorbitant markup but never did, so they sat around on market for months and everyone just went to jjita to buy and fit new ones themselves. But now they're all gone into the aether or dropped out of the POS Market Array (damn you loot fairy) and i got no insurance on them.
QED, this idea is impractical, stupid, and sucks the donkey. J's before K's. ::brofist:: http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Virgil Armstrong
Alice In Wonderlands
1
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 19:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
I answered the questions as to how I see it. OP, what do you think?
It's not going to be used for public goods, like corp ammo. It might be used by individual industrialists to keep their production processes separate. For instance, one member mines gas, another one buys the gas from the market module. Another example, one user explores and gets salvage materials which is bought by another player that produces rigs.
- Who's going to sell that much anyway?
- On that note, think about the programming needed.
It will not be a public market, so no connection needed to the regional/universal market system. It's a market in the sense that it will facilitate trading within a POS. Think of it as a personal hangar array but added to your personal storage there is a hangar bay for sell orders and a hangar bay of buy orders. These can be flat lists with a filter option or a market tree, showing only the parts of the tree that are actually in the list.
- How many market slots do you think this needs?
Don't know for sure yet, but feeling says it should be limited to volume, let's say 50.000 m3 per player, buy and sell orders put together. The number of orders a player can have is determined by the trading skills.
- Will such markets be available on the market browser?
No, the orders will only be viewable when inside the POS by corp members, and you "Access Market POS". Basically just like the current material access behaviour for other hangars.
- What happens to the goods on market when the array is unanchored or destroyed?
They disappear, just like behaviour for the current hangars (I think). The point is, if you're not selling your 30 Guardian hulls, bring them to Jita yourself. Next, take down the Market module because people are not using it, and fit some more guns to defend against Blood Union  |

DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
73
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 07:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
I have no input, other than to say I still think this idea has a positive direction to go for Eve. As to what direction that ends up being, I am not the one to say. Other players or more likely CCP would likely decide what the direction this idea takes. As far as any responsibility to other players for answering their questions about how a pos market hangar would work, I think I have already voiced my opinions and thoughts on the subject. Beyond that, I leave it to other players to either support this idea or not.
If anyone wants any specific statements/thoughts/etc added to OP, please say so. Otherwise, I will observe only. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
1123
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 10:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
DetKhord Saisio wrote:Anyone in the pos shield can make purchases;
I see s slight hiccup in that plan. 
Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |

Joraa Starkmanir
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 13:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:DetKhord Saisio wrote:Anyone in the pos shield can make purchases; I see s slight hiccup in that plan. 
Whats wrong with that? You can password protect the pos shield, and you would get payed for anything they buy. |

Pearl Canopus
24
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 14:40:00 -
[28] - Quote
I see the "black market" idea needs to be discussed beside the view at the new profession "smuggler".
You need to trade from ship to ship. You need to trade from hangar to ship. You need white- and blacklists for hangar and forcefield access but no need for password for tradepoint forcefields. All players on whitelists or not on blacklist have access to the forcefield granted by default.
You only need to keep out surprises... (WTF?) in example - "Thukker Tribe Shield Hardener" for shutting down all modules (setting offline) within the force field (no weapons, no cargo scanners...) - "Intaki Syndicate Shield Hardener" for lowering down scannability of the "hidden outpost" - no invisibility but harder to locate! - maybe further systems like that
Taking down the shield would disable the special features too. The "hardener" won't increase shields healthpoints.
All other idea to make the smuggling profession possible would be off-topic here.
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DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
75
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 17:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
Pearl Canopus wrote:I see the "black market" idea needs to be discussed beside the view at the new profession "smuggler".
You need to trade from ship to ship. You need to trade from hangar to ship. You need white- and blacklists for hangar and forcefield access but no need for password for tradepoint forcefields. All players on whitelists or not on blacklist have access to the forcefield granted by default.
You only need to keep out surprises... (WTF?) in example - "Thukker Tribe Shield Hardener" for shutting down all modules (setting offline) within the force field (no weapons, no cargo scanners...) - "Intaki Syndicate Shield Hardener" for lowering down scannability of the "hidden outpost" - no invisibility but harder to locate! - maybe further systems like that
Taking down the shield would disable the special features too. The "hardener" won't increase shields healthpoints.
All other idea to make the smuggling profession possible would be off-topic here.
I can see a need for some type of access list versus users typing in passwords, but how much of a need is the question in my mind.
Usually, an access list might be for access to a 'common' pos i.e. a pos set up solely for trading or central meetups, etc. Though, I do not see where those access lists would be necessary in order to or prior to implementation of a pos market hangar. Deciding if a new feature such as white/black access lists is up to ccp, though the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Make w-space too simple/easy to deal with and everybody would live there, which may partly why ccp has ignored the problem for this long.
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DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
75
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 17:56:00 -
[30] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:This is redundant. All items a corporation might need for its members can be distributed through the ship and corp hanger arrays.
The closest you could get would them opening up wh to sov and building outposts or something there, along with mebe those cool player-built gates they keep taunting us with to link up with other wormholes. Not precisely redundant. Similar to in highsec market window, a pos market hangar (at least I intended to present the idea this way) would essentially allow transfer of goods for payment and/or payment for goods i.e. buy & sell orders at a pos while the owner of said goods/isk is not currently online. If it were actually redundant, the ship and corp hangar arrays would allow purchases from those locations without using roles to view or remove items from those locations.
Please explain.
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