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Mira Taras
IonTek LLC
8
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Posted - 2014.04.14 13:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey guys, it was probably requested a couple of times, but with the changes to the reprocessing in the summer expansion, are there any more reasons, to not allow rorquals in highsec? If CCP enables compression outside of the rorqual, maybe we can give her a new home in highsec as a miners wet dream?
It would give the ship a little more presence, and there would be an upgrade after the orca that would give some people new goals to play by. The unique role of the rorqual to compress ore isn't a limiting property anymore after summer.
From my point of view these are the pro/cons of allowing it to highsec: +more ship diversity in highsec (yes, 0.0 isn't the only thing in eve :P) +new goals for miners/indus +no game breaking advantages for highseccers with the changes to reprocessing. +i just love that ships design and want to see it more often :D +the transport capacity wouldn't make freighters or jump freighters redundant +increase ice resource usage in highsec, creating need for more resources to come in from low/null. -it is a capital after all and has a lot of hp. Ganks would be very difficult. Maybe tone done the ehp a bit? Ganks shouldn't be impossible, they are a part of highsec.
Yay/nay? |
Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2014.04.14 14:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
actually, for me the idea of giving compression to high via POS mods is bad.
compression shall remain a lowsec thing, using the rorqual.
this is one less reason to go in low, and it screw all the ppl actually having a rorqual because it will now be useless |
Mira Taras
IonTek LLC
8
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Posted - 2014.04.14 15:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
The module reprocessing nerf is one of the central points of the announced changes. But it only works with making ore compression available. I dont think they will make a step back on this.
And the rorq isn't useless at all, it is still the superior mining support ship. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
5205
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nope. Still a capital and has all the strengths of one (million or so EHP, reps thousand of hp, remote reps thousands of hp, jump drive, cargohold big enough for general hauling, cheaper than a jump freighter, etc). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4100
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
For high sec, I would want to see the following:
Well, cargo is only 40K. The Orca has 30K. (Compared to Freighter at 750K and JF at 275K BASE value) (The JF get's 5% bonus per freighter level, meaning you really have 330K or 344K actual, depending on skill level)
Ore hold? Good to go, I think. 250K, it can't even match the JF for general capacity in a specialized hold. I am simply not seeing a conflict here, except if someone used a JF for ore transport, with JF's capacity only a little higher.
Like a JF, no jumping into a HS system, so it would need to have gate travel within HS systems at minimum.
It never could use fighters, no change there.
Honestly, considering it's pinata nature, I find it's use outside of high sec to be questionable, and a novelty occurance too often.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked... |
knowsitall
Adeptus iNdustry and Logistics Silent Eviction
21
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Posted - 2014.04.14 16:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
The only role i see for rorq. Unless changed post summer expansion is as one of the quickest ways to get jump clones for you and your corp without the standing grind.
Rorqs in high sec i see no problem with.
Although as said above cyno should be out and therefore it would behave like a jump frieghter.
Have not tried in ages so don't know if this is still true, but in the past freighter and jump freighter could not scoop from space. If that is still true that restriction should be added if they are added to high sec.
Lastly it may require the escalation (not the time lag) of CONCORD forces if CONCORD can not melt them quickly enough.
Knowsitall |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
450
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
problem with this is, is it can fit all the capital mods that made the ship dangerous, and witrhout other capitals in highsec it would be nigh on impossible to kill all while be able to have 10 effective drones.
I'd rather see the orca get some improvements instead of the rorq allowed in highsec |
Lilliana Stelles
1216
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rorqual is a near match to a carrier.
Million+ HP and capital reps should not be allowed in highsec. Not a forum alt.-á |
Mira Taras
IonTek LLC
11
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Posted - 2014.04.14 16:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
I dont think that remote repair and tank would be that big of a deal in highsec. For one there is the criminal system and concord, preventing abuse. But the main difference imo is the lack of cyno in highsec. You cannot rely on your backup oder escalations like you can in low/null. I dont think that the rorq would be op in highsec.
I also agree with Nikk Narrel, thanks for pointing out the cargo sizes. In its current state, the rorq would not threaten freighters oder jfs. Also seeing jfs going down to a swarm of destroyers, a rorq could be a tool to move medium size freight with higher value. But i agree, it shouldn't be ungankable.
Maybe limit the capital modules to a specific security rating, like bomb launchers? This shouldn't break other uses of the rorq or other caps, and leaves her in hs as buffer tank only. Something that can be dealt with a large enough number of catas/brutixes. |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4101
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Rowells wrote:problem with this is, is it can fit all the capital mods that made the ship dangerous, and witrhout other capitals in highsec it would be nigh on impossible to kill all while be able to have 10 effective drones.
I'd rather see the orca get some improvements instead of the rorq allowed in highsec Dangerous?
It can't aggro anyone without getting a suspect flag, which means instant pinata party for anyone who ever wanted to be on a capital kill mail.
A smart pilot would probably micro manage their drones to death, assuming they risked launching the unpredictable things to begin with.
The only exception that possibly applies would be under some type of war dec, which is an open secret how to avoid using NPC corps. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked... |
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4101
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mira Taras wrote:... But i agree, it shouldn't be ungankable. Maybe limit the capital modules to a specific security rating, like bomb launchers? This shouldn't break other uses of the rorq or other caps, and leaves her in hs as buffer tank only. Something that can be dealt with a large enough number of catas/brutixes. Everything should be gankable...
A smart pilot is the one who makes sure it is not profitable to do so, excel sheet tanking FTW. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked... |
Mira Taras
IonTek LLC
11
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:42:00 -
[12] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Mira Taras wrote:... But i agree, it shouldn't be ungankable. Maybe limit the capital modules to a specific security rating, like bomb launchers? This shouldn't break other uses of the rorq or other caps, and leaves her in hs as buffer tank only. Something that can be dealt with a large enough number of catas/brutixes. Everything should be gankable... A smart pilot is the one who makes sure it is not profitable to do so, excel sheet tanking FTW.
This is what i wanted to say, sorry if my limited english got the point out wrong :D |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
450
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 17:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Rowells wrote:problem with this is, is it can fit all the capital mods that made the ship dangerous, and witrhout other capitals in highsec it would be nigh on impossible to kill all while be able to have 10 effective drones.
I'd rather see the orca get some improvements instead of the rorq allowed in highsec Dangerous? It can't aggro anyone without getting a suspect flag, which means instant pinata party for anyone who ever wanted to be on a capital kill mail. A smart pilot would probably micro manage their drones to death, assuming they risked launching the unpredictable things to begin with. The only exception that possibly applies would be under some type of war dec, which is an open secret how to avoid using NPC corps. The biggest concern would be remote capital reps, self reps and station docking games. |
Lilliana Stelles
1217
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 17:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mira Taras wrote:I dont think that remote repair and tank would be that big of a deal in highsec. For one there is the criminal system and concord, preventing abuse. But the main difference imo is the lack of cyno in highsec. You cannot rely on your backup oder escalations like you can in low/null. I dont think that the rorq would be op in highsec.
Actually, it's that system in particular that makes it dangerous. It can provide neutral reps to wartargets and suspects while also providing a boost with its command processor slots. It would singlehandedly turn the tide of any war or duel. Particularly when dealing with station games, as it would have the ability to dock up before almost anything could kill it.
The highest DPS on any highsec ship is probably the vindicator, which can hit around 2k. It'd take over 10 minutes to destroy a rorqual, or it'd take 10+ vindicators to even have a chance of bringing it down within its weapons timer. It'd essentially be risk free PVP (particularly when you get two of them out there). (This isn't the case in lowsec with supercarriers, dreads, and godforbid titans dealing in the 10k dps range) Not a forum alt.-á |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4101
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 17:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Unless I am mistaken, isn't there a system already in place that prevents a ship from docking after it commits a hostile act?
If we are simply referring to difficulty ganking a pilot smart enough to not shoot back, then I have no sympathy.
Docking games exist in many places, and if you cannot get your target to commit to a fight, that is your challenge to overcome. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked... |
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
13
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 17:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
A cargo rigged and equipped rorqual can actually carry 400k+ m^3 of ore, and has a lower jump fuel cost than a JF. If you want to move minerals (via compressed ore) to nullsec or great distances the rorqual is very viable. The main issue is getting the compressed ore to low sec first. |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4101
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 17:38:00 -
[17] - Quote
Aerie Evingod wrote:A cargo rigged and equipped rorqual can actually carry 400k+ m^3 of ore, and has a lower jump fuel cost than a JF. If you want to move minerals (via compressed ore) to nullsec or great distances the rorqual is very viable. The main issue is getting the compressed ore to low sec first. EDIT: What fitting, please? I can't get the cargo hold beyond 137K, and the ore hold shows no change to rigs or expanders on EFT.
Wait, you mean you can expand that 40k cargo hold that far?
Never tried it. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked... |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
287
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 17:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:Actually, it's that system in particular that makes it dangerous. It can provide neutral reps to wartargets and suspects while also providing a boost with its command processor slots. It would singlehandedly turn the tide of any war or duel. Particularly when dealing with station games, as it would have the ability to dock up before almost anything could kill it.
The highest DPS on any highsec ship is probably the vindicator, which can hit around 2k. It'd take over 10 minutes to destroy a rorqual, or it'd take 10+ vindicators to even have a chance of bringing it down within its weapons timer. It'd essentially be risk free PVP (particularly when you get two of them out there). (This isn't the case in lowsec with supercarriers, dreads, and godforbid titans dealing in the 10k dps range)
These Vindicator figures make the assumption the rorqual is alone, not paired with a second rorqual, sitting on Jita Undock with a pair of insta-locking frigates, pre-locked by the rorquals, and however many combat ships they need to gank whatever war targets, suspects, or otherwise undock.
For example^
And GOOD LUCK killing a POS bashing fleet using 3 rorquals and a bs support fleet.... unless you happen to be RVB or Eve Uni.
The Capital RR mods are obscenely OP for current high sec balance. 3 carriers/rorquals is comparable to what for rep amount? 12 guardians or something?
Sure you could bring geddons but by the time you actually break their cap you would already be down a few geddons. Capital remote reps are some seriously strong RR... not to be underestimated, and a rorqual CAN fit them, which is why Rorqual's in high sec are bad. Oh, and all that stuff about compression too. The Law is a point of View |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
451
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 18:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Unless I am mistaken, isn't there a system already in place that prevents a ship from docking after it commits a hostile act?
If we are simply referring to difficulty ganking a pilot smart enough to not shoot back, then I have no sympathy.
Docking games exist in many places, and if you cannot get your target to commit to a fight, that is your challenge to overcome. unless attacked by a heavy amount of high dps ships that can break the tank in less than 60 seonds then it is still possible.
My biggest concern is the ability to keep a capital on the undock and simply rr any ship it wants, giving a highly unfair advantage, even with the suspect flag |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
451
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 18:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Aerie Evingod wrote:A cargo rigged and equipped rorqual can actually carry 400k+ m^3 of ore, and has a lower jump fuel cost than a JF. If you want to move minerals (via compressed ore) to nullsec or great distances the rorqual is very viable. The main issue is getting the compressed ore to low sec first. EDIT: What fitting, please? I can't get the cargo hold beyond 137K, and the ore hold shows no change to rigs or expanders on EFT. Wait, you mean you can expand that 40k cargo hold that far? Never tried it. hes referring to all holds combined ore hold, fleet hangar, and cargo bay |
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4114
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 18:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Rowells wrote:hes referring to all holds combined ore hold, fleet hangar, and cargo bay Ahhh, I forgot the fleet hangar, another 30K... ok, I see the numbers now, TY!
Still, considering this is mostly dedicated space for ore being considered, I am not finding it beyond acceptable limits for this. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked... |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
556
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 20:28:00 -
[22] - Quote
Eurynome Mangeiri wrote:actually, for me the idea of giving compression to high via POS mods is bad.
compression shall remain a lowsec thing, using the rorqual.
this is one less reason to go in low, and it screw all the ppl actually having a rorqual because it will now be useless What would then be the reason for limiting the compression to non-high sec systems? Previously it was because the only way to get it was by utilizing a barred from high sec cap ship system (the rorq providing a much better boost than available with an orca was its major advantage). There are no POS modules disallowed in high sec. Why start now? You can already buy compressed ore to freight in high sec ... so you aren't really stopping high seccers from access to better storage or freighting...or even the metaphor of possessing compressed ore itself. If they want to haul compressed trit (why would they?), they could sell uncompressed trit and buy compressed trit with little loss. There is no point to limited compression.
If the only reason is because you think the lure of ore compression will bring tons of miners to low sec think again. There is no real world advantage to ore compression other than freight. High sec typically does not need to freight long range. They still can only mine ubiquitous high sec ores at the same given speed as before ... so compression matters little especially because the same lowbie ore is everywhere.. Low and null secs have access to better ores and minerals to compress....are you afraid high sec people might buy ABC ores just so they can compress it in high sec.. -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Agondray
Dark Forge Enterprise Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
97
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 22:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
im for letting the rorqual come into high sec instead of having to do the pos module. just limit it from using capital remote reps in empire, and its not like the thing has fighters or a threatening weapon system. "Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mine" -Dr. Smith |
Exglint
Kings and Queens of Deadspace
2
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 23:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
I don't believe I've ever seen a Rorqual that wasn't a hood ornament for a POS in WH's or low/null. Letting them in highsec would at minimal let them be seen. That said, I'm also for letting the Rorqual into highsec. Let them off the short leash that ties them to a tower and give something new to miners in high sec.
As far as people who cry because it won't be a exclusive ship for them to own and gloat about, highsec is getting compression regardless of how much you whine and I highly doubt anyone will us it in the place of freighters. I do see there being a slight problem with the capital remote reps, but that looks like a free capital kill to me when they get a weapons timer in the middle of the blob that is Jita 4-4.
Make its jump drive function like jump freighters and watch the prices rise higher and higher on the market as demand goes up. |
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
13
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 23:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:... There are no POS modules disallowed in high sec. Why start now? You can already buy compressed ore to freight in high sec ...
Jump bridge, cyno, moon harvesters and CSAA.
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Draconus Lofwyr
UK Corp RAZOR Alliance
90
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 01:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Rowells wrote:hes referring to all holds combined ore hold, fleet hangar, and cargo bay Ahhh, I forgot the fleet hangar, another 30K... ok, I see the numbers now, TY! Still, considering this is mostly dedicated space for ore being considered, I am not finding it beyond acceptable limits for this.
there is also the ability to use gsc's in the expanded cargo bay.
remove the max boosting from highsec and i would love to see it in highsec. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
454
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 01:52:00 -
[27] - Quote
Agondray wrote:im for letting the rorqual come into high sec instead of having to do the pos module. just limit it from using capital remote reps in empire, and its not like the thing has fighters or a threatening weapon system. I wouldn't be so sure. Full skills it has as much damage from normal drones as a carrier. |
Draconus Lofwyr
UK Corp RAZOR Alliance
90
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 02:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Agondray wrote:im for letting the rorqual come into high sec instead of having to do the pos module. just limit it from using capital remote reps in empire, and its not like the thing has fighters or a threatening weapon system. I wouldn't be so sure. Full skills it has as much damage from normal drones as a carrier.
i would love to see the fitting on that as the rorqual can not use a DCU to augment its 5 drone max capacity. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
454
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 04:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:Rowells wrote:Agondray wrote:im for letting the rorqual come into high sec instead of having to do the pos module. just limit it from using capital remote reps in empire, and its not like the thing has fighters or a threatening weapon system. I wouldn't be so sure. Full skills it has as much damage from normal drones as a carrier. i would love to see the fitting on that as the rorqual can not use a DCU to augment its 5 drone max capacity. 20% drone damage bonus per lvl. lvl V gets you 10 effective drones, same as a carrier with lvl V as well except with actual drone count rather than damage bonus |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
454
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 05:15:00 -
[30] - Quote
now, I have been kind of bashing on the idea of the rorq in highsec even though I like part of it, however I probably need to clarify on what my stance is.
I have no problem with the logistical aspects of the rorq being in highsec (large ore hold mostly) however I feel nerfing anything to get the rorq into highsec would simply dissallow any chance of it getting buffed for low/null use.
I would much rather see the orca get buffed to similar stats in its place. It is supposed to be the go-to ship for highsec mining logistics, but has been recently overshadowed by freighters since they now have a way to collect the ore in space. The orca has simply become the "booster" for most organized players and that seems kind of wrong.
TL;DR buff orca instead |
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