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Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
6246
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 14:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
I promise I won't constantly spam the forum with links to my blog, just doing it this once.
Meta Shakeup
For those who want the TL;DR of that blog post, essentially, the K162 delay is a terrible idea, but here are some alternative ideas for discussion to shake up the meta.
Make Wormholes Bigger This is the first thing that could be done, simply by expanding the diameter of the hole, and thus increasing the volume of space that you may occupy on jump through. Right now, sitting at the exact centre of the effect puts you within web and scram range of the edge of jump distance. But, if the hole was bigger, so that the edge of jump distance was more like 15-20 km from the centre of the wormhole, then kiting might become a much more viable tactic, and kiting strategies would gain viability. Some things would be easier, like scouting, or traveling, some things would become harder, like hole control and interdiction. I do believe though, that this change would allow a lot more variability in ships fielded.
Make Wormholes Spawn Themselves This was the other thing we considered. Many many wormholes are unoccupied, and thus their statics are never spawned, and thus they remain disconnected. This can be seen very clearly on the test server, where it is almost impossible to gain access to wormhole space due to the lack of K162s spawned. This could be fixed by having the wormholes spawn themselves. Suddenly wormhole connections will be much more frequent, everywhere. Wormhole space will grow in complexity as all the systems begin to interlink in much more elaborate ways that they do now.
Both these changes would have very profound effect on the wormhole meta, and how pvp is conducted, so IGÇÖm very interested in hearing the feedback of other wormholers on it. These changes would not necessarily be made together, so if you like one, or the other, I'm interested in your feedback.
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Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
31
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Posted - 2014.04.16 14:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
Saede Riordan wrote: Make Wormholes Bigger This is the first thing that could be done, simply by expanding the diameter of the hole, and thus increasing the volume of space that you may occupy on jump through. Right now, sitting at the exact centre of the effect puts you within web and scram range of the edge of jump distance. But, if the hole was bigger, so that the edge of jump distance was more like 15-20 km from the centre of the wormhole, then kiting might become a much more viable tactic, and kiting strategies would gain viability. Some things would be easier, like scouting, or traveling, some things would become harder, like hole control and interdiction. I do believe though, that this change would allow a lot more variability in ships fielded.
In principle I do like the idea, however, there is also much potential for breaking stuff here. It would have a serious impact on rage-rolling for example and collapsing holes in general (slow-boating your dread 15km back to the hole, not so cool). If at the same time the jump range was enlarged ...
Saede Riordan wrote:
Make Wormholes Spawn Themselves This was the other thing we considered. Many many wormholes are unoccupied, and thus their statics are never spawned, and thus they remain disconnected. This can be seen very clearly on the test server, where it is almost impossible to gain access to wormhole space due to the lack of K162s spawned. This could be fixed by having the wormholes spawn themselves. Suddenly wormhole connections will be much more frequent, everywhere. Wormhole space will grow in complexity as all the systems begin to interlink in much more elaborate ways that they do now.
I agree with the notion of this (= better connectivity, more interaction, right?). But this too would complicate a lot of things. It would make PVE more dangerous for one (which is not necessarily a bad thing, some might say). Having all the empty/inactive systems connect to the outside would also lead to people having a harder time to find the active holes, since they would now have to scan through all the empty holes with a gazillions of un-run sites. Overall I think that some additional wandering wormholes would work better for wh-space. |
mechform
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
71
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 14:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
Saede Riordan wrote: if the hole was bigger, so that the edge of jump distance was more like 15-20 km from the centre of the wormhol
are you suggesting that a player has to be within 15-20km to jump, or once you jump through you are spawned 15-20km from the wh? like k-space gates? Black Power - Brotha's in space unite! |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1473
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Posted - 2014.04.16 14:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
I don't think either of these suggestions would improve the game in a profound way. Increasing the jump range makes bumping harder and as for the wormholes spawning them selves, the current systems is fine.
Rather than dramatic and nonsensical changes to the mechanics we are all used to, I would rather CCP spend their time by adding duel statics to more wormholes, which would accomplish one of your goals. +1 |
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
6254
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Posted - 2014.04.16 14:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
mechform wrote:Saede Riordan wrote: if the hole was bigger, so that the edge of jump distance was more like 15-20 km from the centre of the wormhol
are you suggesting that a player has to be within 15-20km to jump, or once you jump through you are spawned 15-20km from the wh? like k-space gates?
Ab'del Abu wrote: In principle I do like the idea, however, there is also much potential for breaking stuff here. It would have a serious impact on rage-rolling for example and collapsing holes in general (slow-boating your dread 15km back to the hole, not so cool). If at the same time the jump range was enlarged ...
I think you misunderstand, it would not be like stargates, you wouldn't be 15 km from jump range when you came in. Jump range would remain 5km from the wormhole, but the size of the wormhole itself, and thus the effective jump range, would increase. Its like, when you fit a smartbomb to a battleship, it has a much smaller AOE then if you fit it to a titan, simply because of the size of the titan itself. The area where you are 'at zero' to the wormhole would increase as the wormhole increased in size, so that sitting at the centre, the edge of jump range would be outside of web/scram range. No slowboating of dreads needed.
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
642
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Posted - 2014.04.16 14:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ab'del Abu wrote: I agree with the notion of this (= better connectivity, more interaction, right?). But this too would complicate a lot of things. It would make PVE more dangerous for one (which is not necessarily a bad thing, some might say). Having all the empty/inactive systems connect to the outside would also lead to people having a harder time to find the active holes, since they would now have to scan through all the empty holes with a gazillions of un-run sites. Overall I think that some additional wandering wormholes would work better for wh-space.
It actually makes PVE safer conversely - people would mass their static to verge of collapse instead of collapsing it so no real change there but when someones rolling their static the k162 side would show up earlier giving the occupants anything from seconds to minutes extra heads up depending on how and why your rolling i.e. you collapse your old static the new one spawns and instantly connects before you've even scanned down the new sig your side - some people will even go the the lengths of getting in a position close to the new static before initiating warp when rolling for pew to reduce the chance of a potential target being able to get safe.
The first idea is interesting though would need a bit of testing/changes - making the spawn distances larger while keeping the jump distance the same via having a larger hole could result in some positive changes if done right and properly thought through. |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
315
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Posted - 2014.04.16 14:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
+1 for K162 delay being a horrible idea (if we go back to the old way with probes, no loss either tbh, making it impossible to scan is silly).
Making wormholes bigger is an interesting idea but I do like the fact that I can bump people out of jump range, and what would the point of a HIC be? As it is, it isn't too difficult to burn out of a bubble - I may as well just fit an infinity point.
I'd rather we get more tools (i.e. mobile depots, SOE ships minus the nestor, POS revamps) so that we can continue to mold W-space. |
RudinV
Syndicate of Death BLOOD UNION
64
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Posted - 2014.04.16 15:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
The Best wormhole idea: Do not touch W-space. just forget about us. we are fine right now |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
642
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Posted - 2014.04.16 15:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yeah the HIC/bubble implications would throw quite a spanner in the works but its an idea I don't think should be dismissed without more examination of the potential. |
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
6256
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 15:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Yeah the HIC/bubble implications would throw quite a spanner in the works but its an idea I don't think should be dismissed without more examination of the potential.
That was my thought as well. Its a big change, it would effect gameplay a lot, but it might be for the better.
You could also do something like, variable sized wormholes, or have the jump radius shrink when the wormhole half masses. Bigger total mass holes might be bigger? I dunno, lots of things could be done.
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RudinV
Syndicate of Death BLOOD UNION
65
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Posted - 2014.04.16 15:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Saede Riordan wrote: I dunno, lots of things could be done.
tell me why? what exactly u wanna do in wspace? what kind of activity u hunger for. |
You're Mum
Temnava Legion No Holes Barred
9
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Posted - 2014.04.16 15:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
RudinV wrote:The Best wormhole idea: Do not touch W-space. just forget about us. we are fine right now
Agreed GÇô WH space is the least broken thing in EvE right now (other than POSGÇÖs but everyone is having to eat that samich)
DonGÇÖt see why people are trying to change it up so much GÇô if it aint broke donGÇÖt fix it.
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mechform
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
71
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 16:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
How are pos's broken? They seem to be working, don't fix them? Black Power - Brotha's in space unite! |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
315
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 16:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
mechform wrote:How are pos's broken? They seem to be working, don't fix them?
They work the same way my friends 1980 chevy truck works. Mostly functional, painful to drive and could be stolen if someone stuck a screwdriver in the ignition. |
mechform
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
71
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 16:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
If it ain't broke don't fix it I says.
On a serious note, pos's can use much improvement. I can understand CCP's hesitation to re-write the code seeing how many players vs real world moneis ccp stand to make. So they have to focus on the big stuff, like making monies off of ship painting etc. Black Power - Brotha's in space unite! |
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
47
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Posted - 2014.04.16 16:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
Saede Riordan wrote:Both these changes would have very profound effect on the wormhole meta, and how pvp is conducted, so IGÇÖm very interested in hearing the feedback of other wormholers on it. These changes would not necessarily be made together, so if you like one, or the other, I'm interested in your feedback.
The size and jump range of WH is not an area which needs shake ups to the game.
Having all k162s autospawn would be a pain in the ass. Nobody wants to have to scan down all 30 sigs in a system when your 8 hours from downtime and can instead only scan the new sigs and follow the activity.
mechform wrote:How are pos's broken? They seem to be working, don't fix them?
Shut the ******* front door, POS are broken?!
WHY DOES NOONE TELL ME THESE THINGS! |
AssassinationsdoneWrong
The Nexus 7's
156
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Posted - 2014.04.16 20:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
Seriously? Another let's add stuff before we fix what's broke post?
Just leave them alone. Don't touch the connections, don't expand the wormholes. Instead put pressure on CCP to do what is right and fix what they broke or never bothered to fix.
- Instant sigs
- Instant Gravs
- After DT warp-in points
- Black holes
- POS'
If we keep feeling around for new stuff rather than fixing what is old broke stuff we all lose out. You can't expect this or any other idea to work out properly and the way you think it will until you have the confidence in CCP to fix what they have been told thousands of time is already broken. Until there is a precedent for benchmarking fixes please STOP asking for more as it just potentially leads to broke things on top of the broke things and thus the cascade continues. The Nexus 7's
What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
358
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 22:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:Seriously? Another let's add stuff before we fix what's broke post?
Just leave them alone. Don't touch the connections, don't expand the wormholes. Instead put pressure on CCP to do what is right and fix what they broke or never bothered to fix.
- Instant sigs
- Instant Gravs
- After DT warp-in points
- Black holes
- POS'
If we keep feeling around for new stuff rather than fixing what is old broke stuff we all lose out. You can't expect this or any other idea to work out properly and the way you think it will until you have the confidence in CCP to fix what they have been told thousands of time is already broken. Until there is a precedent for benchmarking fixes please STOP asking for more as it just potentially leads to broke things on top of the broke things and thus the cascade continues.
QFT Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
711
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 22:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:Seriously? Another let's add stuff before we fix what's broke post?
Just leave them alone. Don't touch the connections, don't expand the wormholes. Instead put pressure on CCP to do what is right and fix what they broke or never bothered to fix.
- Instant sigs
- Instant Gravs
- After DT warp-in points
- Black holes
- POS'
If we keep feeling around for new stuff rather than fixing what is old broke stuff we all lose out. You can't expect this or any other idea to work out properly and the way you think it will until you have the confidence in CCP to fix what they have been told thousands of time is already broken. Until there is a precedent for benchmarking fixes please STOP asking for more as it just potentially leads to broke things on top of the broke things and thus the cascade continues.
All agreed, the only good thing to do would be to make black holes hubs, with their connections extra to current, 10 additional wandering holes 5 into and 5 out of each black hole would be sufficient, there's your additional traffic and interest. other than that please no more silly ideas like delayed visibility spawns. Autospawns are equally not a good idea. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Thago Avori
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
3
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Posted - 2014.04.16 22:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
Thank you for your suggestions. I have a couple of questions though.
1. Really? Did you even think about this before posting it? 2. No, really, did you?
It would seem to me you have no good ideas in this post.
Thank you, come again.
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Jack Miton
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
3249
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Posted - 2014.04.16 22:59:00 -
[21] - Quote
RudinV wrote:The Best wormhole idea: Do not touch W-space. just forget about us. we are fine right now ^QFT Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
ChrisLCTR
Lazerhawks
124
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Posted - 2014.04.16 23:01:00 -
[22] - Quote
Thago Avori wrote:Thank you for your suggestions. I have a couple of questions though.
1. Really? Did you even think about this before posting it? 2. No, really, did you?
It would seem to me you have no good ideas in this post.
Thank you, come again.
And this response has far less content to rebutt the OP than the OP itself, so I would hold your tongue.
It's not like the guy re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-e-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-ree-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re suggested wormhole stabilizers or something. |
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
336
|
Posted - 2014.04.16 23:33:00 -
[23] - Quote
RudinV wrote:Saede Riordan wrote: I dunno, lots of things could be done.
tell me why? what exactly u wanna do in wspace? what kind of activity u hunger for.
Kiting in PvP would be a nice shakeup in a space where everybody brawls on wormholes. I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.
Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever |
Jack Miton
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
3249
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Posted - 2014.04.17 00:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:RudinV wrote:Saede Riordan wrote: I dunno, lots of things could be done.
tell me why? what exactly u wanna do in wspace? what kind of activity u hunger for. Kiting in PvP would be a nice shakeup in a space where everybody brawls on wormholes. considering many groups have moved to nano kite ishtars, what's the issue again? Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Thago Avori
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
3
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Posted - 2014.04.17 00:22:00 -
[25] - Quote
ChrisLCTR wrote:Thago Avori wrote:Thank you for your suggestions. I have a couple of questions though.
1. Really? Did you even think about this before posting it? 2. No, really, did you?
It would seem to me you have no good ideas in this post.
Thank you, come again.
And this response has far less content to rebutt the OP than the OP itself, so I would hold your tongue. It's not like the guy re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-e-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-ree-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re suggested wormhole stabilizers or something.
Thanks for quoting me. It gave me the chance to really appreciate the blatant reality and simplicity of my comment. So much said in so few words.
I amaze myself sometimes. |
Proclus Diadochu
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
1554
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 02:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
This was an idea that Alexsylva guys brought up during the three hours or so we spent hanging out on comms kicking the can and talking about Eve. While I agree with that there are many things that need to be fixed and that are certainly high on the list, which is what I said to Saede as well, I did say that instigating discussion regarding their ideas is and should be welcome, if for nothing more than conversation.
I'd prefer that instead of just dismissing everything with the same old "leave it alone", "no seriously", and whatnot; how about just talking about ideas that are proposed. It's not like everything mentioned is immediately taken to CCP with the "Implement NOW" stamp.
To this specific idea: I told the Alexsylva guys that working on current issues, working with CCP on T3's, and so on are liekly the needed solution, that would mean that these ideas would be superfluous, but I did suggest sharing with the community for feedback. CSM9 Candidate | Twitter: @autoritare | Gmail: [email protected] Campaign Thread: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=325889 My Blog: http://casualcapsuleer.wordpress.com | No-Local News Writer/Editor |
Thago Avori
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
5
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Posted - 2014.04.17 02:27:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'd say the ideas are getting plenty of feedback |
Proclus Diadochu
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
1555
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 02:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
Thago Avori wrote:I'd say the ideas are getting plenty of feedback
Suppose these threads will have to hold us over until the next call out thread. <.< CSM9 Candidate | Twitter: @autoritare | Gmail: [email protected] Campaign Thread: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=325889 My Blog: http://casualcapsuleer.wordpress.com | No-Local News Writer/Editor |
Paikis
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1154
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Posted - 2014.04.17 03:34:00 -
[29] - Quote
The only issue I see here is the un-occupied systems not spawning statics. Simply add a line of code (or however many lines of code) that checks at downtime if the system's static was spawned since last downtime. If yes, do nothing. If no, spawn it.
This way we don't have huge amounts of extra connections that annoy people, and we get those unoccupied holes to open their statics.
Other than that, I'm going to echo this...
RudinV wrote:The Best wormhole idea: Do not touch W-space. just forget about us. we are fine right now |
Kirasten
Sin Factory Infinite Anarchy
3
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Posted - 2014.04.17 03:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
RudinV wrote:The Best wormhole idea: Do not touch W-space. just forget about us. we are fine right now I'm going to have to +1 this with the only exception being pos mechanics could be friendlier. But really, I would be totally fine with zero changes |
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