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Troye
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Posted - 2006.05.14 14:38:00 -
[1]
Dev quote from a previous carrier thread:
Originally by: Mandrake2 Even though fighters are categorized as drones, they are infact not drones... they are manned "ships". I know it can be misleading how they are presented but to make it clear... fighers are not drones and they are not effected by any drone skills that increase theyre attributes except and the fighter skill, that goes for drone interfacing as well.
Mandrake Quality Assurance
CCP release a class of ships that drone lovers are obliviously going to want yet none of the drone skills that they've trained for have any effect on them. Dreadnaught size capital turrets receive the bonus from all gunnery skills so why donÆt carrier sized fighters receive the benefits from drone skills?
Despite acting just like drones if these fighters arenÆt actually "drones" how come they receive the bonus from the Drone Control Unit? Do they receive bonus's from other drone upgrades like Drone Navigation Computer and Omnidirectional Tracking Link?
I understand that the Drone Interfacing skill with its 20% damage increase would overpower fighters but this skill is a prerequisite to fighters anyway so it wouldnÆt be hard to incorporate the damage bonus into the fighters intended damage amount.
Please look into this CCP.
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Mag's
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Posted - 2006.05.14 15:07:00 -
[2]
Sorry but I don't agree, it would make fighters way to powerful.
Plus they already get a bonus with the fighter skill, adding the Drone Interfacing bonus would be way too much.
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Talori'i
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Posted - 2006.05.14 15:10:00 -
[3]
Simply for one reason I think they won't do this, flyers of Gallente ships get a bonus immediately since they typically have good drone skills because drones are a primary weapon for them. It would be like releasing a Capital Missle boat for all 4 races and then hearing the moaning. Think of if there was a Capital Missle boat for all 4 races, and it relied on the various subset skills for missle launchers, everyone would whine about how this is wrong that Caldari skill up for missles because it is a primary weapon for them, yet I as gallente do not because it is not a primary weapon for Gallente ships.
All races use turrets(Caldari-Rails, Gallente-Blasters, Minamatar-Projectile, Amarr-Energy). So It is not the same as getting all the bonuses for turrets on Dreadnaught size capital ships. Whereas drones get a variety of use in the empires, I think Gallente being first, Amarr second, then minamatar and last Caldari, although I do not know the actual stats on each race.
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Brisi
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Posted - 2006.05.14 15:16:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Mag's Sorry but I don't agree, it would make fighters way to powerful.
I concur with this.
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Troye
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Posted - 2006.05.14 15:49:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Talori'i Simply for one reason I think they won't do this, flyers of Gallente ships get a bonus immediately since they typically have good drone skills because drones are a primary weapon for them. It would be like releasing a Capital Missle boat for all 4 races and then hearing the moaning. Think of if there was a Capital Missle boat for all 4 races, and it relied on the various subset skills for missle launchers, everyone would whine about how this is wrong that Caldari skill up for missles because it is a primary weapon for them, yet I as gallente do not because it is not a primary weapon for Gallente ships.
You make a fair point but your forgeting that carriers are specialist ships, which ever racial ship some one flys if their going into carriers they will have an impressive amount of drone skills anyway. If your going to fly the ultimate drone ship it makes sense you'd need a full list of drone skills to support it, the same would apply if a capital missile boat was implemented. A specialist ship should require and make use of specialist skills.
Originally by: Mag's Sorry but I don't agree, it would make fighters way to powerful.
Plus they already get a bonus with the fighter skill, adding the Drone Interfacing bonus would be way too much.
I said in my original post which I dont think you read:
Originally by: Troye
I understand that the Drone Interfacing skill with its 20% damage increase would overpower fighters but this skill is a prerequisite to fighters anyway so it wouldnÆt be hard to incorporate the damage bonus into the fighters intended damage amount.
Therefor the only extra bonus's fighters would get are to speed/optimal range/maximum HP. _______________________________________________
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Mag's
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Posted - 2006.05.14 16:11:00 -
[6]
My bad, but I still don't agree with your petition.
As it is, fighters can follow their target into warp, that alone makes them uber. Remember these are only Tech 1 fighters, can you imagine the Tech 2 fighters with all those skills attached.
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D'onryu Shoqui
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Posted - 2006.05.14 16:34:00 -
[7]
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 14/05/2006 16:35:19 the person there following can simply warp around system laughing as the fighters chase him but never catch him as he armor reps while warping making them not uber.
guess u didnt see the vid where those 4 bs pwned a carrier because he didnt have a warp scrambler on and someone just warped around system for 5 minutes with the fighters chasing him? in the end they just popped all the fighters and the guy was a sitting duck.
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Rawthorm
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Posted - 2006.05.14 18:36:00 -
[8]
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 14/05/2006 16:35:19 the person there following can simply warp around system laughing as the fighters chase him but never catch him as he armor reps while warping making them not uber.
guess u didnt see the vid where those 4 bs pwned a carrier because he didnt have a warp scrambler on and someone just warped around system for 5 minutes with the fighters chasing him? in the end they just popped all the fighters and the guy was a sitting duck.
Indeed. Fighters really need to spawn a bit closer to the target once it drops out of warp.
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James Baker
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Posted - 2006.05.14 19:24:00 -
[9]
Having figthers be affected by auxiliary drone skills would serve just one purpose: Prolonged training time
Why? Because they've been balanced to be like they are now for a reason. Having them be affected by auxiliary drone skills would mean they would have to be nerfed so that with perfect skills, you get them the way they are today.
So why is this a bad idea? A couple of reasons, really. As has been stated before, like missiles, drones are a highly specialised skillgroup, but this is not a case where different carriers use different weapons. They all use the same with exactly the same skill requirements. People who have been focsing on drones (which is hardly what most people specialise in) would have an edge there.
Also, it's been less than six months since the auxiliary drone skills were released, meaning it'd take a rather focused effort for people to have them maxed.
I don't think it would be a good idea just because it would be a timesink.
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Talos Munjab
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Posted - 2006.05.14 19:29:00 -
[10]
there are skills i would like to see introduced to fighters, such as skills for tracking speed and top speed, and optimal range also hp would be nice and not overpower the fighters if they make the base drone skills need for the new ones at lv5, much like the spec of guns
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Hamatitio
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Posted - 2006.05.14 21:32:00 -
[11]
Fighters have pilots - not automated.
Therefore, they are not drones. ---
Originally by: Wrangler ...why do you people always have to verbally assault each other over things that doesn't matter anyway?
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D'onryu Shoqui
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Posted - 2006.05.14 23:56:00 -
[12]
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 14/05/2006 23:57:31 Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 14/05/2006 23:56:22 what happens when a carrier is target jammed before it gets chance to launch its fighters? do they just sit there doing nothing like drones? if so i would hardly class them as fighters with pilots.(yea i know devs class them as beeing piloted)
i bet they have the same stupid drone AI.
btw if they have real pilots that should mean you should be able to tell them to attack someone without actually locking them via a secure comms link ;)
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Hamatitio
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Posted - 2006.05.15 00:30:00 -
[13]
I think having them auto engage targets on their own (if you are target jammed) or being able to pick their targets would be an awesome feature.
It would not overpower them as much as using drone skills would... And it would keep up with the rp side of them being pilotted. ---
Originally by: Wrangler ...why do you people always have to verbally assault each other over things that doesn't matter anyway?
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TheKiller8
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Posted - 2006.05.15 01:17:00 -
[14]
If your carrier is being target jammed you are doing something terribly wrong because your carrier isn't supposed to be in the damn battle. It's a support ship. You keep it in a safespot or POS with its fighters assigned to the actual combat ships.
.: Click 2 See My Flash Animations :. |
D'onryu Shoqui
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Posted - 2006.05.15 02:07:00 -
[15]
depends who your fighting ,its its just a corp war and you know the risks arent to high is it really stupid? if its in low sec empire the carrier has to get involved to use its fighters anyway.
anyway it was just a curious question ,everyone keeps on going on about them beeing piloted ships but do they really act like they are?
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Richard Untouchable
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Posted - 2006.05.15 04:54:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Richard Untouchable on 15/05/2006 04:54:11
Originally by: Hamatitio Perhaps the pilots of carriers don't want to sit a ta safe and assign fighters because 1 rifter can target jam them - making them useless.
I like them being able to auto acquire their own targets, if your ships onboard computer can't (target jamming)
------ I am posting for Hamatitio, because hama gets banned from teh forums a lot. |
Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.05.15 08:43:00 -
[17]
As fighters are piloted vessels, I think CCP plans to make them player piloted one day. When this happens, pilot player's skills will probably be used instead of drone skills... Although if that happened, maybe it should be possible for fighters to be piloted by drone-like AI, in which case drone skills should be applied... with corresponding fighters' base stats nerf of course.
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Boonaki
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Posted - 2006.05.15 10:41:00 -
[18]
Originally by: TheKiller8 If your carrier is being target jammed you are doing something terribly wrong because your carrier isn't supposed to be in the damn battle. It's a support ship. You keep it in a safespot or POS with its fighters assigned to the actual combat ships.
That's not always true. I engaged a HAC outside of a station that engaged a corp mate. Could tank the sentries forever, killed the HAC in about 15-20 seconds. 5 heavy neuts ftw!
Fear the Ibis of doom! |
Fars
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Posted - 2006.05.16 03:16:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Fars on 16/05/2006 03:20:14 Edited by: Fars on 16/05/2006 03:18:28 The stats are not chosen arbitrarily for items in a game. The numbers are actually compared to other numbers, at the minimum to make sure things are somewhat equal. Therefore if the skills affected the fighters, then the stats on the fighters would have to be decreased by the exact same amount. So... Whats the point? You would feel better? Its already been coded this way, and I'd rather the teams and people who balance these things spend their time doing real work rather than working on already done stupidities.
No offense.
I hate agreeing with BOB on general principle, BUT James Baker was dead on the head in his post.
While I dont like agreeing with BOB on general principle, James Baker said it perfectly.
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Chakindra
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Posted - 2006.05.16 06:26:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Mag's Sorry but I don't agree, it would make fighters way to powerful.
Plus they already get a bonus with the fighter skill, adding the Drone Interfacing bonus would be way too much.
I cannot help but second this. They are fine, as they are. If it works, don't fix it.
Signed,
Chakindra CEO of Deadzone Innovation Enterprises Fearless Leader of Ebil Minions
"Competition and fair play are mutually exclusive." |
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TheKiller8
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Posted - 2006.05.16 07:14:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Boonaki
Originally by: TheKiller8 If your carrier is being target jammed you are doing something terribly wrong because your carrier isn't supposed to be in the damn battle. It's a support ship. You keep it in a safespot or POS with its fighters assigned to the actual combat ships.
That's not always true. I engaged a HAC outside of a station that engaged a corp mate. Could tank the sentries forever, killed the HAC in about 15-20 seconds. 5 heavy neuts ftw!
Yes you could do that it and it'd work. And the next time as well. But the third time, seemingly out of nowhere, 10 battleships warp on top of you and destroy your carrier. Plenty of pirate/pvp corps would love to take out a capital ship just for the hell of taking out a capital ship. Hell, we've done it ourselves and we've had people try to gank ours by attempting to bump them off a station in low sec when we were about to move them into 0.0. Your ship isn't safe!
.: Click 2 See My Flash Animations :. |
Max Teranous
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Posted - 2006.05.16 10:23:00 -
[22]
Currently, fighters are balanced without the auxilary skills affecting them. If you wanted drone interfacing to affect them, then CCP would simply half the current base damage the fighters do, have the 100% damage bonus affect the fighters and bob's your uncle, absolutely nothing changes!
If you just want a straight 100% damage increase for your fighters, sorry it ain't gonna happen.
Max
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Thesiuss
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Posted - 2006.05.16 14:26:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Thesiuss on 16/05/2006 14:30:16
I think also it's the principal of the issue too. As a drone specialist, I focus much of my training into being the very best droner I could be. Now with the introduction of the so called ôfightersö, 100% of my drone support skills under the "Drone" category mean nothing.
I would have preferred them to nerf them before introduction and have the supporting drones skills affect them just like the turret/missile support skills affect capital weapons.
And yes they are supposed to be "Fighters" but for the one exception of "follow into warp" which is crap atm they behave entirely like normal drones.
They are purchased under the drone market category. The skill is under the drone skill set. They have the same buggy drone AI. Same buggy return to drone bay logic. Same slow shield regeneration. And no armor boosting.
Everything about them screams drones.
How would gunnery people feel if all of your supporting skills for turrets meant zero when it came to your capital weapons? You would raise hell.
Therefore we drone specialist should be upset that our drone specialization means zero when it comes to "our" equivalent of capital weaponry. WeÆre talking about millions of skill points down the toilet when it comes to using the big daddy of our chosen weapon field. Personally that's nearly 5 million sp up in smoke.
ThatÆs just wrong.
Oberon Inc Website--------------Oberon Sales Page
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Rick Dentill
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Posted - 2006.05.16 15:34:00 -
[24]
After RMR Drone interfacing affect was changed to counter ballance the decrease in drone control numbers. Since Carriers can have more anyway, it seems fairly ballanced. Though as a carrier wannabe one day I wouldnt complain if they did accept the OPs suggestions _______
http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/page.php?id=dd |
Cpt Kaboom
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Posted - 2006.07.16 04:11:00 -
[25]
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 14/05/2006 23:57:31 Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 14/05/2006 23:56:22 what happens when a carrier is target jammed before it gets chance to launch its fighters? do they just sit there doing nothing like drones? if so i would hardly class them as fighters with pilots.(yea i know devs class them as beeing piloted)
i bet they have the same stupid drone AI.
btw if they have real pilots that should mean you should be able to tell them to attack someone without actually locking them via a secure comms link ;)
Carriers are immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare.....its in the description
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.07.16 04:50:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Cpt Kaboom
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 14/05/2006 23:57:31 Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 14/05/2006 23:56:22 what happens when a carrier is target jammed before it gets chance to launch its fighters? do they just sit there doing nothing like drones? if so i would hardly class them as fighters with pilots.(yea i know devs class them as beeing piloted)
i bet they have the same stupid drone AI.
btw if they have real pilots that should mean you should be able to tell them to attack someone without actually locking them via a secure comms link ;)
Carriers are immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare.....its in the description
Motherships are immune to all forms of electronic warfare. Motherships != carriers. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
digitalwanderer
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.16 12:47:00 -
[27]
I'd love to see that happen,if nothing more than the fact that i'm going on 9 million sp in drone skills,and only 5 days away from maxing out the fighter skill too...
With the way fighters are setup at this very moment in terms of damage,and the fighter skill being the only one that currently affects them damage wise,and assuming a nice mix of fighters deployed(13 in this case),that covers all damage types,average DPS against any T1 ship,cruiser size and above,hits 1700~1800 DPS according to quick fit,wich is already figuring in the target ship base resists for shields and armour into the calculations,with the fighter skill at lvl 4(with an archon to boot,wich has no built in damage bonus)...
I'll recalculate once the fighter skill is maxed out in a few days,but wouldn't be surprised if it then hits close to 2000 DPS,still with an archon,and imagine an extra 20% on top of that if it was a thanatos with the gallente carrier skill trained to lvl 4 and the fighter skill to level 5...
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Taketa De
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.16 14:53:00 -
[28]
Well how about alternatively: Give us Capital Drones!
These would be the drone equivalent of capital ship weapons (which fighters aren't since they are not drones according to the devs). --- The Advanced Drone Control Panel. |
Rumbaar
Royal Society Of Khanid
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Posted - 2006.07.17 00:02:00 -
[29]
I agree, or at least take the word 'Drone' out of their descriptions in any form.
They should have incorporated all the pre-req Drone skills into their base stats and then added on the Fighter specific skills. It's not like you have Fighters without all those base skills anyways.
I personally think it's stupid that for all intended purposes a Drone isn't effected by the drones skills it's required to have before usage.
If anything else, just reduce the fighter stats to incorporate the current missed Drone skills and be done with it.
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Apertotes
Nuevos Horizontes
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Posted - 2006.07.17 01:01:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Talori'i Simply for one reason I think they won't do this, flyers of Gallente ships get a bonus immediately since they typically have good drone skills because drones are a primary weapon for them. It would be like releasing a Capital Missle boat for all 4 races and then hearing the moaning. Think of if there was a Capital Missle boat for all 4 races, and it relied on the various subset skills for missle launchers, everyone would whine about how this is wrong that Caldari skill up for missles because it is a primary weapon for them, yet I as gallente do not because it is not a primary weapon for Gallente ships.
All races use turrets(Caldari-Rails, Gallente-Blasters, Minamatar-Projectile, Amarr-Energy). So It is not the same as getting all the bonuses for turrets on Dreadnaught size capital ships. Whereas drones get a variety of use in the empires, I think Gallente being first, Amarr second, then minamatar and last Caldari, although I do not know the actual stats on each race.
well, arent stealth bombers a specialist ship that use missile launchers for all the races? and if i remember right, the cruile launchers you fit on stealth bombers benefit from all the missile skills. isnt that a bit unbalanced for non-caldari pilots?
Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve |
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