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pirates vs carebears, what needs to be fixed? -- not a whine post.

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Feyt	Posted - 2006.05.15 05:57:00 - [1] Ok i see alot of post on the boards with carebears whining about pirates and pirates whining about carebears. Now i for one wouldnt want to see the anything nerfed in an extreme way, i havnt tried pirating yet, i'll probably get around to it sometime (i got a whole lotta karma to even out), but that said as someone who every now and then tries to even the score with pirates something certainly does need to change. It strikes me that the current security system is a workable model, security penalties to pirates cannot be made stricter without unduely affecting people who live their lives deep in 0.0. If you live in a system where defending your turf is required, sometimes taking a sec hit is unavoidable. What does need to be fixed is the short term reprecussions of attacking another player. It shouldnt be possible to just dissapear if you have found you have bitten off more than you can chew. If i go to rob a store and the owner pulls a shot gun on me i cant just yank out my phone jack and dissapear, i have to run, hide and lay low for a bit until my pursuers have lost my trail. Same thing goes for pirates, warping out and logging is just too easy an option and allows the pirate to escape from a bad decision with no real risk. I think to rectify this a few small tweaks are needed. 1. if a player logs with a pvp agro timer against them their ship should not dissapear. Sure let it warp away at random but the ship should hang where ever it arrives until the agro times out. The same thing goes for people running from pies, they cant just run and unjack wither... win/win no? 2. Deny access to gov type bases. Places like caldari navy bases and other standard high sec bases come to mind, this would prevent a pie from docking into the nearest station as soon as things turn sour. However i think that faction should also play a big part in this, where if a player has hi faction with a corp that corp station will harbour them. although maybe each time they do this that corp should lower that faction by a tiny ammount, just to show that they dont always appreciate the cops at their front door. I think these 2 things are all thats really needed to even the playing field again, players should have to use their own ingenuity to get out of a bind, not their cat 5 socket. And whats more no ones been nerfed, you can still gang, gank, run, chase, hide clone, dock (to an extent), gate camp and continue on with life as normal. you just cant cop out when the goings tough. So what do you all think? and please, anyone who's a pirate dont just reply that things are fine as they are, something has to change so why not make sure its something that works for both sides.
Tresh Keen	Posted - 2006.05.15 06:26:00 - [2] If you live in 0.0 - how do you get a sec hit? I think its more then clear that Carebears and Pirats do not have the same opinion. If you cant log off when a agro timer is running, what do you do when you should leave (rl busines) and what does it change when you sit in a save spot? Until they can find you the timer is down... One thing i just think about it - what about standing? If you attack and destroy a ship with 9.3 Standing to Caldari Navy, then the attacker loose some standing to that corporation and get some standing from the "enemy" faction? But maybe the impact is to big... What we need is simple a fair chance - a fair chance that a carebear can escape and a fair chance that a prirate can kill the target We need some more systems, low and high sec ones - connected throug various routes - lets say a new "america" - where profit is high but its danger to get there. Cheers, Tresh
Zebers	Posted - 2006.05.15 06:43:00 - [3] Lets clarify a few things that a carebear wouldn't know about. 1. If you log off within ~50 minutes or so of combat(not sure exactly) your ship will stay in space for 20 minutes where it can be destroyed. 2. All sentry guns will shoot at you for the entire 15 mintute global aggressive timer, most pirates have to stay inactive in a system for 15 minutes IN SPACE to travel to another area. 3. And no, you cannot dock immediately after killing someone, You have to stay in space for at least 15 minutes. There are other things going agaist us as well, like the fact if we have low enough security ( < -2.0 ) we cant even go inside systems of a higher security rating such as .8+. In some regions of space, this can also mean we are trapped and have to travel 50+ jumps in 0.0 to get somewhere straight autopilot trip would of taken us 6 jumps.
Alliaanna Dalaii	Posted - 2006.05.15 07:16:00 - [4] Originally by: Zebers Lets clarify a few things that a carebear wouldn't know about. 1. If you log off within ~50 minutes or so of combat(not sure exactly) your ship will stay in space for 20 minutes where it can be destroyed. 2. All sentry guns will shoot at you for the entire 15 mintute global aggressive timer, most pirates have to stay inactive in a system for 15 minutes IN SPACE to travel to another area. 3. And no, you cannot dock immediately after killing someone, You have to stay in space for at least 15 minutes. There are other things going agaist us as well, like the fact if we have low enough security ( < -2.0 ) we cant even go inside systems of a higher security rating such as .8+. In some regions of space, this can also mean we are trapped and have to travel 50+ jumps in 0.0 to get somewhere straight autopilot trip would of taken us 6 jumps. Do not inform people of umm..... Rubbish/lies 1: 15 minutes 2: No we just insta out of system 3: Who told you that ? theyre lieing. You have to wait for the aggresion timer the same as all players who engage in combat. you cannot dock or jump through a gate for a cppl of minutes... oh no. You can then happily jump out of system or dock As for the travelling... huh ? Use a shuttle Or just fly your pod through.... And if you need to take a bs for some reason THROUGH highsec on a regular basis then you didn't plan your pirating career all too well. Alliaanna Official Follower of =-= Royal Hiigaran Navy =-= Make POS's Hackable.. Support this thread !
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.05.15 07:48:00 - [5] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 15/05/2006 07:49:43 Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii 2: No we just insta out of system Alliaanna I thought you were prohibited from jumping through a gate while the aggro timer is active? The aggro timer is 15 minutes, right? --- The Eve Wiki Project
Akkarin Pagan	Posted - 2006.05.15 08:09:00 - [6] There is an invisible type timer for using gates and stations (about 1 minute from the agressive act), you don't have to wait for the agression timer to run out its 15 minutes before docking / jumping from system
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.05.15 08:14:00 - [7] Originally by: Akkarin Pagan There is an invisible type timer for using gates and stations (about 1 minute from the agressive act), you don't have to wait for the agression timer to run out its 15 minutes before docking / jumping from system This is good to know. Thanks. --- The Eve Wiki Project
Saeris Tal'Urduar	Posted - 2006.05.15 08:21:00 - [8] Originally by: Feyt If i go to rob a store and the owner pulls a shot gun on me i cant just yank out my phone jack and dissapear, i have to run, hide and lay low for a bit until my pursuers have lost my trail. unless your in the Matrix..bleh bad joke For 15 minutes you will remain in space if you log out/pull the plug. Until the PvP timer runs out. Most people if they are being hunted will warp from safe spot to safe spot until the 15 minutes is up. *So you dont just disappear.* Originally by: Feyt Deny access to gov type bases. Places like caldari navy bases and other standard high sec bases come to mind. This is already in..well based on security status of the system. I'm limited to systems based of my negative standings. The more bad I am the less access I have. Originally by: Feyt where if a player has hi faction with a corp that corp station will harbour them. although maybe each time they do this that corp should lower that faction by a tiny ammount This is in also. My standings with the Minmatar Republic sucks, because I popped a few noobs from the The Republic Military School. If I get to -5.0 with Minnie standing the Minmatar fleet will attack me. Im not sure what your offering is really any different than what we already have...except extending the time before people disappear. And that wont matter because people will still go from safe to safe until the timer runs out. And denying people docking right is just a plain bad idea. Whats an empire pirate gonna do when they reach -10.0 and they need to change set-ups or ships? Delete their character and start over? Originally by: Tresh Keen We need some more systems, low and high sec ones - connected throug various routes - lets say a new "america" - where profit is high but its danger to get there. Thats also already in, its called low security space...and for that matter 0.0 space. (you know, the reason why all these 0.0 alliances kill each other) Originally by: Treash Keen One thing i just think about it - what about standing? If you attack and destroy a ship with 9.3 Standing to Caldari Navy, then the attacker loose some standing to that corporation and get some standing from the "enemy" faction? But maybe the impact is to big... Thats would make sense when Factional Warfare come out. If you attack someone doing what ever it is they are going to be doing while they are employeed with the (say) Caldari Navy you take a faction hit. And like I said already, now in game if you attack someone in a noob corp you do take a faction standing hit.
Saeris Tal'Urduar	Posted - 2006.05.15 08:24:00 - [9] Originally by: Akkarin Pagan There is an invisible type timer for using gates and stations (about 1 minute from the agressive act), you don't have to wait for the agression timer to run out its 15 minutes before docking / jumping from system I thought it was two minutes?
Traxio Nacho	Posted - 2006.05.15 08:41:00 - [10] Edited by: Traxio Nacho on 15/05/2006 08:42:03 Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Originally by: Akkarin Pagan There is an invisible type timer for using gates and stations (about 1 minute from the agressive act), you don't have to wait for the agression timer to run out its 15 minutes before docking / jumping from system I thought it was two minutes? As far as I know the agression timer to be able to redock/jump is 45 seconds or there abouts.
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.05.15 09:16:00 - [11] Originally by: Traxio Nacho Edited by: Traxio Nacho on 15/05/2006 08:42:03 Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Originally by: Akkarin Pagan There is an invisible type timer for using gates and stations (about 1 minute from the agressive act), you don't have to wait for the agression timer to run out its 15 minutes before docking / jumping from system I thought it was two minutes? As far as I know the agression timer to be able to redock/jump is 45 seconds or there abouts. About 30s. Plus minus 10s for latency. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT! Corporate Consultation Services
Tas Devil	Posted - 2006.05.15 09:36:00 - [12] Originally by: Traxio Nacho Edited by: Traxio Nacho on 15/05/2006 08:42:03 Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Originally by: Akkarin Pagan There is an invisible type timer for using gates and stations (about 1 minute from the agressive act), you don't have to wait for the agression timer to run out its 15 minutes before docking / jumping from system I thought it was two minutes? As far as I know the agression timer to be able to redock/jump is 45 seconds or there abouts. Its coded as 30 seconds exactly... there may be a slight difference in exact perceived duration due to lag ... but its 30 seconds that are coded in game as a delay before you can dock/jump after the last aggressive action you performed (shooting a gun, using a ew module, nossing etc....) The best Laugh ever ... Credit goes to TheKiller8 for this :)
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.05.15 09:46:00 - [13] I endorse this thread for finally being able to discuss the matter without resulting into a 5 page rant about how ridiculous it is that concord doesnt instapops anyone that priates anywhere but in 0.0, or similar crap. Congrats on making the first thread that succesfully made it to a post by me without involving prior suggestions to deal with perceived unfairness of piracy in low sec by introducing silly AI or world-rule restrictions. What the op did was suggest changes that allow players to deal with players. That's the way to go, and now amtter what the proposal it means that it deserves some attention and not the usual disregard that the whinage nerf rants get. Power to the players !
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2006.05.15 09:50:00 - [14] Originally by: Zebers Lets clarify a few things that a carebear wouldn't know about. 1. If you log off within ~50 minutes or so of combat(not sure exactly) your ship will stay in space for 20 minutes where it can be destroyed. 2. All sentry guns will shoot at you for the entire 15 mintute global aggressive timer, most pirates have to stay inactive in a system for 15 minutes IN SPACE to travel to another area. 3. And no, you cannot dock immediately after killing someone, You have to stay in space for at least 15 minutes. There are other things going agaist us as well, like the fact if we have low enough security ( < -2.0 ) we cant even go inside systems of a higher security rating such as .8+. In some regions of space, this can also mean we are trapped and have to travel 50+ jumps in 0.0 to get somewhere straight autopilot trip would of taken us 6 jumps. Utter drivel
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.05.15 09:51:00 - [15] Originally by: Rod Blaine I endorse this thread for finally being able to discuss the matter without resulting into a 5 page rant about how ridiculous it is that concord doesnt instapops anyone that priates anywhere but in 0.0, or similar crap. Congrats on making the first thread that succesfully made it to a post by me without involving prior suggestions to deal with perceived unfairness of piracy in low sec by introducing silly AI or world-rule restrictions. What the op did was suggest changes that allow players to deal with players. That's the way to go, and now amtter what the proposal it means that it deserves some attention and not the usual disregard that the whinage nerf rants get. The post doesnt get flamed because it doesnt suggest any big changes. Any player should agree to these changes. --- The Eve Wiki Project
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.05.15 09:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Rod Blaine I endorse this thread for finally being able to discuss the matter without resulting into a 5 page rant about how ridiculous it is that concord doesnt instapops anyone that priates anywhere but in 0.0, or similar crap. Congrats on making the first thread that succesfully made it to a post by me without involving prior suggestions to deal with perceived unfairness of piracy in low sec by introducing silly AI or world-rule restrictions. What the op did was suggest changes that allow players to deal with players. That's the way to go, and now amtter what the proposal it means that it deserves some attention and not the usual disregard that the whinage nerf rants get. The post doesnt get flamed because it doesnt suggest any big changes. Any player should agree to these changes. Oh, believe me, there've been countless threads on this subject that went alot farther then this one Oh, and maybe all players should agree (well actually they don't since the actual suggestions aren't that great just yet), but for plenty of people it won't be enough, while for plenty of others it'll already go too far. What I meant it that I like how this op, while seeing the current situation as unfair, does not automatically reach to the much-desired introduction of concord, bigger/better sentries, monetary penalties, clone-deletion or whatever else others have come up with that simply comes down to having the server do your work for you. As for the changes itself, the docking one is rather dubious tbh, seeing how low sec tends to have few stations it could well be overdoing it. The timer thing is worth considering, altho maybe it would be better to simply apply two seperate timers to pvp in empire: npc-aggro timer (sentry reaction, corcord reaction) and player timer (criminal flag). I'd say the latter being changed to 60 minutes shouldn't be an issue, if the former remains no longer then 15 minutes. Allowing players to take action beats having sentries or npc's do it for them. Power to the players !
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.05.15 10:06:00 - [17] Originally by: Rod Blaine What I meant it that I like how this op, while seeing the current situation as unfair, does not automatically reach to the much-desired introduction of concord, bigger/better sentries, monetary penalties, clone-deletion or whatever else others have come up with that simply comes down to having the server do your work for you. Definently. I very much agree with this. Its nice to see a post where the OP realize that pirates should be a part of the game even in empire, and doesnt try to punish them for it. --- The Eve Wiki Project
Keta Min	Posted - 2006.05.15 11:20:00 - [18] i'd suggest lowering the npc flag duration (to sentries) a lot, while extending the player flag to 1-2 hours. fact is the 15min sentry flag only causes the pirate so sit at a safe doing nothing, better prepared pirates just insta out of system or to station anyway. all it achieves is making combat between the pirate and his enemies cease for the duration of the flag which is not fun for anyone involved.
Tsun Lau	Posted - 2006.05.15 11:42:00 - [19] Originally by: Keta Min fact is the 15min sentry flag only causes the pirate so sit at a safe doing nothing Doesnt matter when you sit outside sentrygun range sniping shuttles does it?
Mwean	Posted - 2006.05.15 12:32:00 - [20] Yeah i have to apologise for some of my ilconsidered suggestions in my op, unfortunately work and posting never seem to blend. Unfortunately i cant afford to take the risks i'd like to in the game so far so alot of what i know or hear about is from here, proably n ot the best place to learn about much disputed game play issues. The main thing i'm trying to find an answer for is how to make pirating more of a 50/50 affair (given two roughly equal skill opponents that is). I'm never a fan of the nerf bat and prefer the idea of giving players tools to utilise as opposed to babying them by having the game take over and fix it for them. There seems to be alot of honking about pirates either flying in and yomping someone in short order (i have no beef with this as its suvival of the fittest), or running away and zipping around making themselves impossible to catch. Its the latter part that i'd like to find an answer for. The whole warping back and forth like a mad man just feels a little lacking to me, unless you can predict where the person is going to, or have some kind of method to tail him (like say a follow ship command or something) then you can spend alot of time running around in circles acheiving nothing. So i'd like to ask a question, you and an opposing player are in the same system, ones the mouse, your the cat. Now if the mouse decides to run back and forth all over the system, what cann be done to stop them without calling for backup? and lets assum here that jamming them before warp is not an option for whatever reason. In regards to options that dont yet exist, how about an fix that reduces the odds of a sucessful warp if one is attempted less that x seconds after one is completed. This atleast would lead to players either pausing for a moment longer between jumps or possibly failing to jump if they try to daisy chain to many in a row. Think of it as a warp core overheat or something. Again i'd never ask for anything that gives a 100% certainty, just something that creates an oppotunity.
Varis	Posted - 2006.05.15 12:45:00 - [21] That warp core overheat thing has been asked before - for different reasons. Personally i like the idea, as well as the idea that if you "warm up" the engine for longer periods you can make more accurate jumps. But thats another topic.. on the whole i like the idea of making more repercussions for pvp - a much longer pvp aggro timer would be great - and i would love to have docking rights based more upon standings as well. Nice
Keta Min	Posted - 2006.05.16 00:33:00 - [22] Originally by: Tsun Lau Originally by: Keta Min fact is the 15min sentry flag only causes the pirate so sit at a safe doing nothing Doesnt matter when you sit outside sentrygun range sniping shuttles does it? now think again why 15min timer encourages sniping instead of roaming piracy.

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