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kessah	Posted - 2006.05.16 07:53:00 - [1] I shall first off post my rough skillpoints in Amarr large weaponary and the Foe in this case a megathron blaster pilot. ive large pulse and beam spec to 4 surgical 4 and the rest of the rank two key skills to 5. Amarr bs is at 4. And corpy has 1.3 mil skillpoint in gunnery, and used a Blaster mega, with large hybrid 4 and bs 4 Now to start of with I REALLY suggest you test this for yourself on sisi, but im guna post my testing with veto on sisi. First i used a geddon with 7x dual heavy pulse w\conflag cap booster with 800's dual accoms with n-types across and 1600 t2 and nano adaptive t2. Corpie had 4 ions 3 elecs 1 dmg mod and dual large rep with usual tank. OK basically we started at 30km from each other a fair range for blasterthrons as it can warp out or can mwd into its point blank range opt if it chooses in this case i shot it up at up as it came in. Now i do not mind blasters getting this new boost as it should be able to fit t2 blasters with a nice tank etc, what really bugged me is that once the mega hit 5km range i couldnt hit a thing but the random slight hit shot on the mega. ok Conflag fair enuf slight tracking issue, but ive had trouble in the past hitting with regular t1 crystals and this is aswell a Battleship with a good 400~600 sig radius so i should be able to hit. I lost my geddon which i knew i would, the dmg of blasters are too extreme for my tank to hold up and i find that tank damned good for most situations. Ok fine some might say or sod you and your Amarr bs the smackers will say. here are my Problems with Blasters. 1) Theres no minmum range really, you mwd to a target even if your webbed at 10km you will drift into range before your slowboating, once you hit that range you aint guna miss the BS target. All blaster pilots fit a webber. 2) The Damage blasters do, i find with the new patch im happy you gallente pilots can fit your t2 blasters with some credible tank that you trained so hard for and quite rightly so, but Just because you need to fit a mwd i do not feel the damage these blasters do is entirely balanced (i shall show u another example futher down of this) I seriously do feel that megathrons blasters fitting arent fair and the new patch is very much due, BUT.... 2nd Match, Blasterthron vs my personal favourite triple armour repping Tanked Apoc, with 3 active hardeners and 8 dual heavy pulse t2 and again cap injector with 800's. Blasterthron is fitted with 4 ions 3 electrons, 1 dmg mods heavy nos 2 large accoms and 3 active hardeners and a dmg cont. starting at 30km again using MF this time, it began and like before im missing when he hits 5~7km and im Barly keeping up with the dmg his megaT is doing with 3 large t2 reppers this i was totally shocked at this! i thought 2 large reppers would be enuf. Anyway cap gone and awaiting reload of the 800's im forced to run only 2 large reppers and the dmg is overwhelming my tank, The famous apoc tank fails agaisnt a single blaster mega and without t2 guns. This is a problem. The Amarr apoc is famous for the tank and yet this happened. several times it had be tested and still similar results. Blasters are Far too damaging with the new changes additionally. Yes i used dual heavy pulse ok the damage isnt great but the tracking is the best in the large turret catagory & it couldnt hit. My proposal is simple and should be one of several suggestions. 1) nerf the dmg of the blasters somewhat and allow Pulse lasers to hit at point blank range as with the blasters. 2) Increase the Dmg of pulse lasers to complete with Large Auto's of the tempest and the blasters of the mega along with the abilty to hit at point blank as with the other two races. Any other suggestion on this AFTER you test it for yourselfs are welcome since this is with the new changes on sisi. Dont smack please and keep it constructful. -------------------------------------------------------- http://www.eve-files.com/media/0604/Forever_pirate.wmv[/ur
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.05.16 07:57:00 - [2] fit a webber then come back and tell us, also that webber will save ur ass from crusiers and BC -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s
Nifel	Posted - 2006.05.16 07:58:00 - [3] Did you fit a web? "We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.05.16 08:02:00 - [4] Edited by: Gronsak on 16/05/2006 08:02:55 also no ship without good faction mods should standupto a megathron if it gets within 10km, which they cant do, AND its the same with AC temp, torp raven, and pulse gedden try this fit and see how it goes 7x DHP T2 [1x nos if u got space] 1x Hvy electrochemica cap injecter, 1x 90% webber, 1x 20km 2x dmg mod, 2x large reps [try t2 but if cpu a prob downgrade to accoms] 3x eenrgized adaptives, 1x DCU havent been in a gedden for a while but if that dont fit drop 1 rep for medium, or a 1600mm plate ect 5x exp hvy t2 drones -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s
Cryselle	Posted - 2006.05.16 08:09:00 - [5] Dual Rep on an Armageddon makes me go Get some HSII on it and I hope you used T2 DHPs. The Armageddon is all about damage, if agility is your problem, replace your plate with a damage control.
kessah	Posted - 2006.05.16 08:10:00 - [6] Webber tested Same result, i managed to keep the mega at 6km as he mwd in at speed bearly hitting and he closed the gap by continuing his MWD. I shall now retest again with the setup you have posted, but i fear this will not make a difference. -------------------------------------------------------- http://www.eve-files.com/media/0604/Forever_pirate.wmv[/ur
Chronus26	Posted - 2006.05.16 08:13:00 - [7] It does say in the description of blasters that they are the most damaging turret type. Personally I disagree with what you are saying. Yes, blasters are damaging but there are also some quite extreme drawbacks to using them, range being the most notable. Say in an engagement between a Blasterthron and another BS starting at 30k, the megathron will be sure to take a considerable amount of damage even before it gets into range, it would be heading towards the enemy BS at almost zero transversal with a sig-radius as big as a house so unless something is horribly wrong the opposing bs should be hitting it for almost full damage. Thats a good 20 seconds of damage atleast before you can even fire back. I've seen geddons hit far harder than any Mega's, and I don't actually think 4 ions and 3 electrons put out any more dmagae than your average BS. -----
Morrigan Starlover	Posted - 2006.05.16 08:22:00 - [8] So, you just sat there and let him get optimal range on you. You really think this is a valid comparison? When you bring mwd into the comparison then you need to incorporate all EW into it as well. And then its all about which ship is equiped specifically to counter a certain tactic.
LukaG	Posted - 2006.05.16 08:32:00 - [9] Originally by: kessah . My proposal is simple and should be one of several suggestions. 1) nerf the dmg of the blasters somewhat.... Get a grip m8, Blasters are hardly worth using at the moment and you want to nerf them???
kessah	Posted - 2006.05.16 08:32:00 - [10] This isnt about EW Amarr bs simply do not fit EW normally. Changing the crystals for the range the megaT was in i thought was a given. Gronsak your setup was effective agaisnt the 1.3m sp gunnery pilot i was shooting, it was a very close battle with my crystals hitting at least 50~70% of the time this with 3 heat sinks instead of 2. Lost Cap very quick tho using conflag. and the MegaT pilot eventually prevailed, since i had to keep both reppers on full. Im open to more setups to test, on the geddon and the apoc. Apoc seems not able to do the business in either damage or tank yet. Unless im fitting exactly for a Blasterthron encounter. -------------------------------------------------------- http://www.eve-files.com/media/0604/Forever_pirate.wmv[/ur
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2006.05.16 08:32:00 - [11] So you tried to kill armor tanked dual repping mega with the lasers which do primarily EM damage? That's when mega pilot knew you'd use lasers? And thus probably fitted more EM hardeners to 60% base EM resist armor? lol, just lol.
kessah	Posted - 2006.05.16 08:35:00 - [12] Last two posters. Please read the entire thread before posting. This was a controlled testing not a Traqulity pvp real time thing. If you do not take the time to read and test it yourself you are not qualified to post an opinion. -------------------------------------------------------- http://www.eve-files.com/media/0604/Forever_pirate.wmv[/ur
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.05.16 08:38:00 - [13] kessah what was ur mega buddies setup? and ur right i dont see an armagedden beating a blasterthron RIGHT NOW before blaster changes becase most fit energized adaptives giving them 80% EM resistance but its not purely about BS vs BS, its about BS vs what ever and useability, fight a raven u should win b-thron will probably not! also you got 45km optimal with ur t2 ammo so starting at 30km if i was in a pulse gedden i would warp out, if he decided to mwd to me at 40km or 45 id give it a go, plus if u had tacklers or webber drones u can slow him down! -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s
kessah	Posted - 2006.05.16 08:42:00 - [14] i think my main gripe is with Pulse they dont seem to have the tracking i thought they once had, and without a damaged mods its not happening. I still need to further test and il wait for verone and his gallente piloting skills to help me prove my theory behind Pulse 'or' Blasters or mebbie both. I believe we have roughly equal Skills Amarr vs Gallente. Need to test against t2 weaponary really. Thankyou tho so far for your imput. I only post becus eve is a VERY delecate balance and i dont want to have to wait till the next patch before a relisation has been made about certain mods. I feel ive been most unbiased in testing the ships, but i do encourage other to test and draw up there own conclusions. -------------------------------------------------------- http://www.eve-files.com/media/0604/Forever_pirate.wmv[/ur
LukaG	Posted - 2006.05.16 08:42:00 - [15] Originally by: kessah Last two posters. Please read the entire thread before posting. This was a controlled testing not a Traqulity pvp real time thing. If you do not take the time to read and test it yourself you are not qualified to post an opinion. Don't be such an arrogant ****. I read your post in detail and particularly your setups. I am expressing my opinion that blaster dmg does NOT need to be reduced and if YOU read the two massive and thoroughly debated sticky's at the top of this forum you'll see why. I simply can't be bothered going over the maths and arugments again when much more intelligent (and patient) people have done such a good job already.
kessah	Posted - 2006.05.16 08:46:00 - [16] Originally by: Gronsak kessah what was ur mega buddies setup? and ur right i dont see an armagedden beating a blasterthron RIGHT NOW before blaster changes becase most fit energized adaptives giving them 80% EM resistance but its not purely about BS vs BS, its about BS vs what ever and useability, fight a raven u should win b-thron will probably not! also you got 45km optimal with ur t2 ammo so starting at 30km if i was in a pulse gedden i would warp out, if he decided to mwd to me at 40km or 45 id give it a go, plus if u had tacklers or webber drones u can slow him down! This is true, i used 30km as a start point as its an average small gang 1v1's altho in fairness are rare generally happen at in my experience. Warping to station\gate and whatnot. Gronsak come on the test server mate help me test this out. Everyone is invited to witness controlled tests and make your own. -------------------------------------------------------- http://www.eve-files.com/media/0604/Forever_pirate.wmv[/ur
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.05.16 08:48:00 - [17] im on test server and i tried to convo you :P accept it -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s
kessah	Posted - 2006.05.16 08:51:00 - [18] Originally by: LukaG Originally by: kessah Last two posters. Please read the entire thread before posting. This was a controlled testing not a Traqulity pvp real time thing. If you do not take the time to read and test it yourself you are not qualified to post an opinion. Don't be such an arrogant ****. I read your post in detail and particularly your setups. I am expressing my opinion that blaster dmg does NOT need to be reduced and if YOU read the two massive and thoroughly debated sticky's at the top of this forum you'll see why. I simply can't be bothered going over the maths and arugments again when much more intelligent (and patient) people have done such a good job already. There was no arrogance in my post, i simply felt your post failed to contain substance. If you felt i was being arrogant i appologise, but this is text and you really cant tell if im being what you say i was being. I hope you can see that im holding my tongue here and hoping that the eve community will help me out here instead of shooting me down with insults. So again i appologise, lets have a thread where were all helping the thread poster see sence or accept the sence he's putting across. -------------------------------------------------------- http://www.eve-files.com/media/0604/Forever_pirate.wmv[/ur
LukaG	Posted - 2006.05.16 09:06:00 - [19] Edited by: LukaG on 16/05/2006 09:11:15 Originally by: kessah Originally by: LukaG Originally by: kessah Last two posters. Please read the entire thread before posting. This was a controlled testing not a Traqulity pvp real time thing. If you do not take the time to read and test it yourself you are not qualified to post an opinion. Don't be such an arrogant **. I read your post in detail and particularly your setups. I am expressing my opinion that blaster dmg does NOT need to be reduced and if YOU read the two massive and thoroughly debated sticky's at the top of this forum you'll see why. I simply can't be bothered going over the maths and arugments again when much more intelligent (and patient) people have done such a good job already. There was no arrogance in my post, i simply felt your post failed to contain substance. If you felt i was being arrogant i appologise, but this is text and you really cant tell if im being what you say i was being. I hope you can see that im holding my tongue here and hoping that the eve community will help me out here instead of shooting me down with insults. So again i appologise, lets have a thread where were all helping the thread poster see sence or accept the sence he's putting across. forget it. I'm just **ed off because I'm starting to see what a collosal uphill struggle it is to get Devs to balance issues that are resonably obvious especialy with the huge amount of work some people put into maths/graphs/testing etc. If your losing fights against the mega its because your not dictating range. The great advantage of lasers of blasters is the flexibility you have to hit at hard upto 45km away, fit a MWD and keep away and the fights as good as over. Anyway ill remove myself from this post now since I don't really have anything positive to contribute and I'm sure other people can validate my arguments better then I can.
Exiled One	Posted - 2006.05.16 09:15:00 - [20] agreed with the Op but it's not the blasters, it's the pulses/dual heavy pulses dmg. They are not the way they used to be since the stacking nerf. Slow rof/low dmg mod compared to autocannons/blasters.
Neon Genesis	Posted - 2006.05.16 09:22:00 - [21] Edited by: Neon Genesis on 16/05/2006 09:24:08 Are all the tests with conflag? Because if so there is your problem. Take this for example, when I go out in a megathron with Void in the blasters, oribiting an enemy bs is out of the question because i'll miss alot. Conflag isn't going to hit oribitng ships at that kind of range. EDIT: Bit more, if you web a blasterthron orbiting you at 5km'ish and you have multifreq's loaded, I can't see why you wouldn't be able to hit. There, i just contributed nothing to your thread
Sheraad	Posted - 2006.05.16 09:26:00 - [22] Originally by: LukaG forget it. I'm just ****ed off because I'm starting to see what a collosal uphill struggle it is to get Devs to balance issues that are resonably obvious especialy with the huge amount of work some people put into maths/graphs/testing etc. If your losing fights against the mega its because your not dictating range. The great advantage of lasers of blasters is the flexibility you have to hit at hard upto 45km away, fit a MWD and keep away and the fights as good as over. Anyway ill remove myself from this post now since I don't really have anything positive to contribute and I'm sure other people can validate my arguments better then I can. this is basically your problem here. You're trying to beat a mega at its own game in a geddon.
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.05.16 09:32:00 - [23] There is this thing called Maneuvering...those of us who were trained to fly in Minnie ships know about it...tricksy Projectileses. ~Eximius Josari, Hegemon of the E.A.R.T.H. Federation
kessah	Posted - 2006.05.16 09:33:00 - [24] I tried with t1 neon, but unless im in a ganka geddon which that now is defined as 2-3 dmg mods ive no hope of fending the mega off before my tank in demolised. Also really need that webber It is true the mega is the close range biatch of the eve universe, im am starting to relise the problem may well lay within pulse and not blasters. hmmmmm PS sorry gronsak about DC'in like that ive been awake all nite pc crashed and i just havnt the energy to test anymore. Feeling fully hangin' right now so im just guna try sort this hangover out b4 sleepin, i will be online later 2nite mate. -------------------------------------------------------- http://www.eve-files.com/media/0604/Forever_pirate.wmv[/ur
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.05.16 09:41:00 - [25] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 16/05/2006 09:42:56 Try MF+web k ? Complaining about tracking yet fitting tech2 ammo with tracking penalty is not really smart. Neither is focusing on your tank that much. Less repairing, more hardening, MORE damage mods. Then try MF from the start (yes that'll be well into falloff), and web him asap while moving away from him at all times using an AB II at least or even an MWD. Also, youre testing in a 1v1 situation only. How about chaning it to a 3v3 situation ? You start with two of those megapulse ships against two blasterthrons, throw in one support ship on either side as well while at it. Try starting with 10km space between the two blasterthorns as well as between the two geddons. Power to the players !
Altai Saker	Posted - 2006.05.16 10:00:00 - [26] Edited by: Altai Saker on 16/05/2006 10:00:49 you might want to also try a durability tank... I havent done the math at all and its been like a year since I've flown a geddon. So, pardon me if this is not possible or something... 7x Megapulse mids whatever 3xdmg mod 3xplate adaptaive nano or 2 and some active hardeners....
Marcus Aurelius	Posted - 2006.05.16 10:08:00 - [27] 7 dual heavy II or megapulse II 1x AB II, tracking comp, sensor booster 1x lar II, 2-3x hardener/anII, 1x tracking enhancer, rest damage mods. That's the geddon one should be looking at when 1v1 is not the aim of your sortie. Two of these against two realistically setup blasterthrons. Set the frienly ships 5-10km apart, put the two groups 25km away from eachother. All teh pulse boats have to do is move away from teh enemy and eachother and focus fire. Even if the mega's would use webber drones they'd still lose.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.05.16 10:18:00 - [28] Evil geddon setup: 7x dhp (t2 or modulated i used modulated and I think there was a good reason to use them prolly grid/cpu something) 1x med diminishing cap injector, 90%, 20km 2x LAR II, 2x energized adaptive nano, 1x DCU, 1x HS II, 2x 1600mm rolled I haven't met another BS 1v1 I couldn't kill except for a vampa/ecm domi :/ Also you're talking 1v1 bs which is not realistic since in real pvp this will never ever happen. 1v1 HAC and cruiser and inty is a low chance, BS never happens. (unless you're in a BS killing other BS who are npcing but that's a whole different story).
Twilight Moon	Posted - 2006.05.16 10:44:00 - [29] ...and Fraps it next time! Seriously though, replays casn help.
Morrigan Starlover	Posted - 2006.05.16 18:06:00 - [30] Edited by: Morrigan Starlover on 16/05/2006 18:07:38 Originally by: kessah Last two posters. Please read the entire thread before posting. This was a controlled testing not a Traqulity pvp real time thing. If you do not take the time to read and test it yourself you are not qualified to post an opinion. Yeah a controlled environment involving him having a MWD and you not having a MWD. I thought of this while dozing off last night. You could simply go the same speed as the blasterthron, and guess what?? He couldn't close the gap, and would do ass damage to you while you chewed him up and spit him out. You want a controlled environment, then either both have MWD or neither have MWD. Cause here you are saying nerf blasters as if they come combined with a free MWD in their butts. EDIT: lol you were drunk when you posted? heh nm then

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