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Pirate honor, why?

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Tobias Sjodin	Posted - 2006.05.17 10:00:00 - [1] I know it's nearly public policy to have a certain amount of "honor" as a pirate. But -why- really? Is it because pirates "care" for their victims? Or that they're just charming gentlemen (or women) who just are quite poor, and doesn't really wish to cause suffering, but will gladly take your ISK? Piracy among non-pirates is viewed as a despicable EVE-profession, of course! They hate to lose all the stuff they've collected when they're taking foolish risks to get more stuff. So why is it that most pirates give these people 'a quarter'? "Well, if you pay your ransom, I will be honorable and disengage". You might say, "Well, you can cut the hair of a sheep several times, but only skin it once" - well heck, that's why there are so many sheep out there. And then of course there's the argument that there might be causes for grief and war, etc. - but then what? Is the reason why pirates honor ransoms; really, fear of reprisal!? I'd love to know -WHY- the general opinion is that you should have "honor" as a pirate. Is it something started by CCP to stop the carebears from spamming the forums with nerf-posts?
Alliaanna Dalaii	Posted - 2006.05.17 10:12:00 - [2] By maintaining my honour theres a greater chance that my local inhabitants will pay ransoms in the future. I have no need for strip miners And the folk that fight back ? Well... if theyre gunna fight they might av nice loot Kill em all Alliaanna Official Follower of =-= Royal Hiigaran Navy =-= Make POS's Hackable.. Support this thread !
Ayame Mishima	Posted - 2006.05.17 10:26:00 - [3] That honor yet again? Simple reason to "honor" your ransoms is to recieve more of them in the future. Otherwise, kill, burn and pillage everything you can. Lure others into your traps, lie, cheat (not in sense of exploiting game mechanics of course ) and do everything necessesary otherwise. Make them feel they should give you money just to make you leave them alone for a while.
Logi3	Posted - 2006.05.17 10:37:00 - [4] Only honour i belive in is when ransoming. Otherwise people are going to think "Why pay him 10 mil isk when im going to die anyway?" Otherwise its kill kill kill! -----------------------------------------------
Aerok	Posted - 2006.05.17 11:01:00 - [5] what the others said... it's already hard enough to find anyone that is willing to pay a ransom because of the pirates that don't honour them... so if ur gonna blow em up anyway just don't ransom and make ransoming a little easier for others that do bother keeping their promises... --------------------------------------------------------------------
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.05.17 11:16:00 - [6] Honour eh? Reputation I say ! Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Caia	Posted - 2006.05.17 11:19:00 - [7] I suppose it depends why you're a pirate to begin with. Some just want to blow pretty things up (why NPCing isn't enough for them, I'll never know). Some see it as a money maker. Seeing as how you're only going to get some of the stuff on the ship, its probabaly more profitable to ransom the ship instead.
ian666	Posted - 2006.05.17 11:25:00 - [8] We are all human's behind keyboards at the end and I like people to think i'm honorable so that I get there respect even if i do kill everything that moves.
Carnelian Solus	Posted - 2006.05.17 11:25:00 - [9] Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii By maintaining my honour theres a greater chance that my local inhabitants will pay ransoms in the future. I have no need for strip miners And the folk that fight back ? Well... if theyre gunna fight they might av nice loot Kill em all Alliaanna Given that RHN are well known for not honouring ransoms or NAP's where is your 'honour'?
Sacred Badger	Posted - 2006.05.17 11:45:00 - [10] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Is it something started by CCP to stop the carebears from spamming the forums with nerf-posts? Well that didn't work did it?
Alliaanna Dalaii	Posted - 2006.05.17 11:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Carnelian Solus Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii By maintaining my honour theres a greater chance that my local inhabitants will pay ransoms in the future. I have no need for strip miners And the folk that fight back ? Well... if theyre gunna fight they might av nice loot Kill em all Alliaanna Given that RHN are well known for not honouring ransoms or NAP's where is your 'honour'? Ive never flown in a gang with a member that disshonoured a ransom, and would pod them if they did. As to NAP's, RHN are not well known for breaking naps at all. That would just be me If someone hasn't fought with me before or I dont know/respect their corp I couldn't care less if someone slid the standing slide to +5. Theres no disshonour there at all. If my CEO doesn't like the way I play he can kick me at any time... but ive been in the corp a while now so I dont see it happening oh and also im colourblind lol Alliaanna Official Follower of =-= Royal Hiigaran Navy =-= Make POS's Hackable.. Support this thread !
Ayame Mishima	Posted - 2006.05.17 11:56:00 - [12] Originally by: ian666 We are all human's behind keyboards at the end and I like people to think i'm honorable so that I get there respect even if i do kill everything that moves. Guess we have different attitudes towards it. I see me myself different than the character I play in game. Ayame should be a ruthless pirate, preying on those she can. Me myself I would never do that. I usually don't judge a player by the actions of his character in game. A player is honorable to me, when he is a fair player - which doesn't mean that he has only to fight on even ground but to not exploit bugs, never log off in combat etc.
Mathra	Posted - 2006.05.17 12:58:00 - [13] I'd like everyone who uses the word "honor" more than once a week, especially regarding "honoring your word" and such, to look it up May Yahrr be with you
Ayame Mishima	Posted - 2006.05.17 13:07:00 - [14] Do you want a philosophic discussion about honor?
Hugh Ruka	Posted - 2006.05.17 13:20:00 - [15] you want a "carebear" view ??? if you call a fight, I have no problem ... I will fight if I can even without you needing a scrambler, it's an agreed fight and I am losing ... well my bad in general I never pay ransom but target and engage ... if I knew the ransom would be honored ... well ... but there is no telling before basicaly we don't like losing our property just because we happen to take up a bit of space in the same system you happen to be in ... go shoot the roids, they do the same offense ... this post might not make sense ... but anyway ------------------------------ if you want peace, prepare for war ... ------------------------------ Removed due to offensive content - Laqum I realy liked my signature. Oh well
Mathra	Posted - 2006.05.17 13:28:00 - [16] Edited by: Mathra on 17/05/2006 13:30:57 Edited by: Mathra on 17/05/2006 13:30:18 Originally by: Ayame Mishima Do you want a philosophic discussion about honor? No, I want you people to bloody look the word up :P May Yahrr be with you Originally by: Hugh Ruka you want a "carebear" view ??? if you call a fight, I have no problem ... I will fight if I can even without you needing a scrambler, it's an agreed fight and I am losing ... well my bad in general I never pay ransom but target and engage ... if I knew the ransom would be honored ... well ... but there is no telling before basicaly we don't like losing our property just because we happen to take up a bit of space in the same system you happen to be in ... go shoot the roids, they do the same offense ... this post might not make sense ... but anyway Interesting quote you got in your sig... If you want to move into 0.4 or below, prepare for pirates, it's a know fact, deal with it :P (btw, this was a bit off-topic, wasn't it?)
Ange1	Posted - 2006.05.17 13:57:00 - [17] Honour = Reputation = Fear = Money, Fame and Fortune. The Establishment is at your service...
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2006.05.17 14:14:00 - [18] I don't know I have no honor supposly. I target alliance indy ships down south and I spare most of there pods. I just want the loot and nothing more. I have no honor... Then again im 1 or 2 people in a system of 20-40 trying to kill 1 or 2 while the blob is on it's way. I have no honor. Really I don't... Utter garbage
Tobias Sjodin	Posted - 2006.05.17 14:19:00 - [19] OK, so the consensus (carebears aside) is that if you get a reputation as someone who doesn't "honor" his ransom, you "ruin it for everyone". I find this to be similar to the argument: "Well, if you don't kill anyone, people will know that you won't, so then they won't be afraid of you". Ransoming is a privilege, if I stop firing and ransom someone; I'm doing my victim a courtesy. I'm pretty much sure I will get more money out of his loot than I am out of a ransom (unless he has a cheap ship, and crap modules, in which case he'd rather lose it anyway) - so why the heck should "I" care for his feelings? It's a hypothetical debate on a macro-perspective here, if the consensus among every player was that piracy is all about ransom, then pirates blowing up enemy ship would be a lot more uncommon. Most pirates I've got to learn during my time in eve are pretty much on the same level; pirating is about the kill. And the fear you strike into the heart of those you blow up. But then you stop, cuddle, and fly away. Somehow this doesn't work out for me. Reputations aside. Charming pirates?
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2006.05.17 14:20:00 - [20] Honor is keeping your word. Its essential in order to maintain the credibility required for ransoming, or the occasional merc job. There is nothing dishonorable about killing everything you can, but if you tell somebody you'll let them go, you let them go. Shamis
kessah	Posted - 2006.05.17 14:38:00 - [21] Im very honourable person, i do not break my word and i dont tarnish my name by setting traps \ ambushes by lying, i dont need to kill that way. As stated many times above ransoms, altho in general i do not bother ransoming, but if ive asked for one i will respect it. But when buying off sell order forums, trade channels etc and you need something delievered you need to be trusted. I like having it known im honourable skum tho in fairness. When i was solo i had many fights that had me outnumbered so i used to ask random the locals sometimes to join me. Or id help out other alliances fight off camps in there systems. All that above requires you be honourable. -------------------------------------------------------- http://www.eve-files.com/media/0604/Forever_pirate.wmv[/ur
Jubei Zon	Posted - 2006.05.17 14:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin I know it's nearly public policy to have a certain amount of "honor" as a pirate. But -why- really? Is it because pirates "care" for their victims? Or that they're just charming gentlemen (or women) who just are quite poor, and doesn't really wish to cause suffering, but will gladly take your ISK? Piracy among non-pirates is viewed as a despicable EVE-profession, of course! They hate to lose all the stuff they've collected when they're taking foolish risks to get more stuff. So why is it that most pirates give these people 'a quarter'? "Well, if you pay your ransom, I will be honorable and disengage". You might say, "Well, you can cut the hair of a sheep several times, but only skin it once" - well heck, that's why there are so many sheep out there. And then of course there's the argument that there might be causes for grief and war, etc. - but then what? Is the reason why pirates honor ransoms; really, fear of reprisal!? I'd love to know -WHY- the general opinion is that you should have "honor" as a pirate. Is it something started by CCP to stop the carebears from spamming the forums with nerf-posts? even in piracy, it's a business. you can't expect people to pay your ransom if they know you will just blow them up anyway. What happens when you run into someone in a shuttle, and crap cargo, but you think they might have a decent amount of isk. do you just blow them up? or do you hold them for ransom and let them go if they pay up? if you kill them, they won't pay your ransom ever. if you take the ransom and let them go, they might pay the ransom again the next time you see them. _______________ Yakuza Vanu CEO _______________ Rotating Sig ftw! (refresh it) Qalawou diali al magribia.
Tobias Sjodin	Posted - 2006.05.17 14:47:00 - [23] OK, gotcha'll.
Christopher Dalran	Posted - 2006.05.17 15:25:00 - [24] Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 17/05/2006 15:30:24 Also if you take someones ransom (and its reasonable) and simply let them go and dont harass them again for a good while (IE dont ransom the same person every day) usually that is the END of the issue. However if you take someones ISK and blow them up anyway (expecially pod them) there is a good chance you may either cause their corp to come after your or even worse an entire alliance. Blowing up someones ship anyway is also a good way to get yourself alienated from other pirates because they arent going to want to fight your war. "I'd love to know -WHY- the general opinion is that you should have "honor" as a pirate." This is not the general populations oppion of what a pirate is, rather this is the type of pirate people will generally "accept" or tolerate the presence of. Remember you never know who is friends with who, just make sure the effort it would take to come after you is MUCH greater than the damage you inflict and your golden. Dont pod is a good rule to carry Now as far as "honor" goes with pirates i dont see any, there is no honor in 6 people ganking 1 person at a gate. But honor does not make money in piracy unless you just want to keep collecting chump change..
Diskord Pryde	Posted - 2006.05.17 15:48:00 - [25] Originally by: Christopher Dalran Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 17/05/2006 15:30:24 "I'd love to know -WHY- the general opinion is that you should have "honor" as a pirate." IMHO people are confusing "honor" and "integrity". By strict definition a pirate can not be honorable. honorable adj 1: not disposed to cheat or defraud; not deceptive or fraudulent; "honest lawyers"; "honest reporting"; "an honest wage"; "honest weight" [syn: honest] [ant: dishonest] 2: showing or characterized by honor and integrity; "an honorable man"; "led an honorable life"; "honorable service to his country" etc. etc. A Pirate can certainly have personal integrity however, and have a steadfast adherence to their own personal code.
Ayame Mishima	Posted - 2006.05.17 16:25:00 - [26] Originally by: kessah Im very honourable person, i do not break my word and i dont tarnish my name by setting traps \ ambushes by lying, i dont need to kill that way. As stated many times above ransoms, altho in general i do not bother ransoming, but if ive asked for one i will respect it. But when buying off sell order forums, trade channels etc and you need something delievered you need to be trusted. I like having it known im honourable skum tho in fairness. When i was solo i had many fights that had me outnumbered so i used to ask random the locals sometimes to join me. Or id help out other alliances fight off camps in there systems. All that above requires you be honourable. That is exactly the problem of that all. Honor in general is something that is bestowed upon you by others. To honor your word is by no means making the character you play honorable. That are two different things - which is one reason why I asked Mathra above. Honor itself is given to you by others. That usually goes along with a certain form of moral values. To most pirates you would be considered honorable by keeping your word, etc. Yet by most anti-pirates, carebears or whatsoever you are considered a deeply dishonorable outlaw. That is one reason why this whole honor topic so so damn often on top. What one person considers honor is something another person considers infamous. Another thing is, that honor is highly subjective by being more of an expression for feelings towards other people. If you feel cheated by someone else you will consider that person dishonorable in most cases. And here we go again that honor is something that can't be seen objective. If you speak about honor in general, it will usually been the views of the majority towards what is honorable and what isn't. The majority will consider pirates by any means dishonorable. We murder, we plunder. We kill for money, loot or just for the thrill. We do not wait for someone to prepare himself for a fight nor do we tell them that we are willing to blast their ship. That is something that is considered dishonorable by most people and therefore we aren't considered as having honor in that. To honor your word is an expression that is most often misunderstood in that case. When you honor your word you do not have honor yourself. Your word does have it, that is not the same again. It says that your word can be trusted - not that you can be trusted. Me as a player, I want to be honorable. I want to play by fair means - which is more commonly seen as an honorable pirate by most players because they do not make a difference between the character and the player. My character nontheless is deeply dishonorable. She attacks, kills and pods as she likes to. Of course I am guiding her actions as I am playing that character yet there is a difference. And don't tell me you aren't a roleplayer. Whenever you log on you play a different role than in your normal life. That doesn't mean to speak in some high and mighty language or something like that. It means to behave and to act differently than you normally would. The reasons for that aren't in question here, just the result. And some would say, you even play a role in your daily (real) life... that is something depending on the point of view of everyone as well, just like it is with those special meanings of honor.
Valdir Mustafar	Posted - 2006.05.17 16:37:00 - [27] It's just not good business... If you kill someone after a ransom, you might never again be able to ransom people because they know that you have no honor. so you ruin it for yourself and others... ------------------------------------------------ Arr! I stab at thee
Blitz'Krieg	Posted - 2006.05.17 17:00:00 - [28] When you consider the basis of a ransom is that it will cost them more to die than to pay - and conversly you will make more from the ransom than from the loot - there are actually very few ships that are worth ransoming. Hacs, maybe some other t2 ships. Freighters definately. It'd be nice if we do get the directional damage so you can knock out modules. To many times i've had a ship neutralised and locked down and not been able to force ejection. Thats just wrong imo.
Prestis	Posted - 2006.05.17 18:54:00 - [29] Someone people apparently have pirates mixed up with "honorable gentleman duelist" and then call anyone who actually acts like a pirate a griefer. I blame Johnny Depp.
Tristan Acoma	Posted - 2006.05.17 19:44:00 - [30] Originally by: Ayame Mishima And don't tell me you aren't a roleplayer. Whenever you log on you play a different role than in your normal life. cough MMORPG That is all.

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