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Ashlar Maidstone
ImaNicePirate.com Ideal Society
68
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Posted - 2014.04.23 23:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
After the announcement by CCP recently I decided to reserve judgement till after the changes goes into effect. How about anyone else?? What's your thoughts?? |
Tenchi Sal
Dust Bunnies 514
192
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 02:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Think ganking is getting a buff. With industry having to be more spread out, theres going to be more freighters running around. Freighters with lots of products headed to the trade hubs.
Still waiting on the blog about the new taxes and how they work. |
Volar Kang
Kang Industrial
145
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Posted - 2014.04.24 02:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Some people believe that the changes will bring wide spread POS,s to highsec. I feel the changes will reduce the number of them in high. A med POS costs around 180 mill a month in fuel. Even if the new charges to station slots cost me 100 mill a month, I still save 80 mill AND get to keep my BPO,s safe inside a station. CCP can't raise the prices much higher than this or they will block out new players from industry.
Personally I have found a few empty systems 8 jumps from my trade hub and after I test the costs after the change, I am betting I will be moving from my POS to one of these stations and saving a bunch. |
Kun'ii Zenya
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2
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Posted - 2014.04.24 06:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Volar Kang wrote:Some people believe that the changes will bring wide spread POS,s to highsec. I feel the changes will reduce the number of them in high. A med POS costs around 180 mill a month in fuel. Even if the new charges to station slots cost me 100 mill a month, I still save 80 mill AND get to keep my BPO,s safe inside a station. CCP can't raise the prices much higher than this or they will block out new players from industry.
Personally I have found a few empty systems 8 jumps from my trade hub and after I test the costs after the change, I am betting I will be moving from my POS to one of these stations and saving a bunch.
You sir, are my hero. Finally somebody started putting these changes together.... |
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
147
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Posted - 2014.04.24 17:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
I speculate that it will be uneconomic after the changes to run research/manufacturing POSes in high sec. |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1905
|
Posted - 2014.04.26 22:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ashlar Maidstone wrote:After the announcement by CCP recently I decided to reserve judgement till after the changes goes into effect. How about anyone else?? What's your thoughts??
You CLEARLY don't know how these Forums work... "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3126
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Posted - 2014.04.26 23:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
You seen the most recent update? -5% material cost with POS. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4236322 http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15242
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Posted - 2014.04.27 00:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
Volar Kang wrote:Some people believe that the changes will bring wide spread POS,s to highsec. I feel the changes will reduce the number of them in high. A med POS costs around 180 mill a month in fuel. Even if the new charges to station slots cost me 100 mill a month, I still save 80 mill AND get to keep my BPO,s safe inside a station. CCP can't raise the prices much higher than this or they will block out new players from industry.
Personally I have found a few empty systems 8 jumps from my trade hub and after I test the costs after the change, I am betting I will be moving from my POS to one of these stations and saving a bunch.
I guess you missed the part where copy times are being massively reduced, right? "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" |
Volar Kang
Kang Industrial
152
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Posted - 2014.04.27 01:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Volar Kang wrote:Some people believe that the changes will bring wide spread POS,s to highsec. I feel the changes will reduce the number of them in high. A med POS costs around 180 mill a month in fuel. Even if the new charges to station slots cost me 100 mill a month, I still save 80 mill AND get to keep my BPO,s safe inside a station. CCP can't raise the prices much higher than this or they will block out new players from industry.
Personally I have found a few empty systems 8 jumps from my trade hub and after I test the costs after the change, I am betting I will be moving from my POS to one of these stations and saving a bunch. I guess you missed the part where copy times are being massively reduced, right?
Could you point us to the source of this massive copy time reduction please? All I see is this line in the Building Better Worlds post:
"Reduce copy time on all blueprints to be less time consuming than manufacturing something out of it. This gives the option to use blueprint copies to build items at Starbases without risking the original"
No where does it say this copy time reduction only applies to POS's so I ask you, what makes this copy time reduction the big factor in keeping a POS? Will you be able to copy or build 25% faster in a POS, yep. Will it be worth the 100 million a month when you can use unlimited slots in a station, keep your BPO's safe, no longer have to log in everyday and look for a wardec and not have to haul or mine ice/ice products?
The blog post above seems to say that copy time will be less than manufacturing time. Taking an invulnerability field as an example, it has a base build time of 10 minutes. If the blog post is correct, the new copy time will be reduced from 6 hours and 40 minutes to less than 10 minutes. Will a 25% reduction from 10 minutes to 7.5 minutes really be worth all the trouble that comes from having a POS? |
Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
2145
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Posted - 2014.04.28 09:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Volar Kang wrote:Malcanis wrote:Volar Kang wrote:Some people believe that the changes will bring wide spread POS,s to highsec. I feel the changes will reduce the number of them in high. A med POS costs around 180 mill a month in fuel. Even if the new charges to station slots cost me 100 mill a month, I still save 80 mill AND get to keep my BPO,s safe inside a station. CCP can't raise the prices much higher than this or they will block out new players from industry.
Personally I have found a few empty systems 8 jumps from my trade hub and after I test the costs after the change, I am betting I will be moving from my POS to one of these stations and saving a bunch. I guess you missed the part where copy times are being massively reduced, right? Could you point us to the source of this massive copy time reduction please? All I see is this line in the Building Better Worlds post: "Reduce copy time on all blueprints to be less time consuming than manufacturing something out of it. This gives the option to use blueprint copies to build items at Starbases without risking the original"
Copy BPO in station. Dump BPC into POS. Therefore, BPO is still safe in station.
Yes, it's a pain ... but the mfg time bonus in POS might make up for it. Also, assuming a station/system has copy/invent/me/pe slots, but no mfg slots, you'll still need a POS in that system to do your mfg.
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
157
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Posted - 2014.04.28 10:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Only change that will be universally good for anyone is the UI improvements.
Regarding all the rest, if you're a serious indy player, it's not so much a question of whether the changes are 'good' or 'bad' but how SIGNIFICANT they are. In other words, how much will they shake things up.
Until now, it looks like the changes will be pretty big.
So, the most important thing for an indy player would be to understand the changes the best he/she can, find new ways to maximise profits and work on a plan to make it happen.
For example, I really don't understand people complaining that highsec industry is being nerfed. Even if that were true (80% of the picture is still missing atm), just move your ops to null, right? And maybe enjoy doing something new and exciting?
It's not as if the character creation screen forces you to make a definitive decision about which region of space to live in! |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
423
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Posted - 2014.04.28 11:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
For example, I really don't understand people complaining that highsec industry is being nerfed. Even if that were true (80% of the picture is still missing atm), just move your ops to null, right? And maybe enjoy doing something new and exciting?
It's not as if the character creation screen forces you to make a definitive decision about which region of space to live in!
The problem there is that many people don't *want* to move to null, deal with the politics, follow others rules etc etc. As you say we don't know yet what the impact will be and everyone interested is chomping at the bit for the rest of the blogs! A key issue though is that many people play in hisec and run industry not for the safety but because they don't have the playing time required to run in null ( and as many have said logistics is the big problem in null which means much more time required)
Losec and null should be able to run S&I but changes that also buff S&I in null alongside opening it up are effectively forcing people to choose whether to de-camp (which many can't) or become a second class industrialist through no fault of their own. If this is the case many players will have to choose whether to spend the same amount of time for less reward (in isk and game sense). or pick another game. |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
986
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Posted - 2014.04.28 11:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
For example, I really don't understand people complaining that highsec industry is being nerfed. Even if that were true (80% of the picture is still missing atm), just move your ops to null, right? And maybe enjoy doing something new and exciting?
It's not as if the character creation screen forces you to make a definitive decision about which region of space to live in!
The problem there is that many people don't *want* to move to null, deal with the politics, follow others rules etc etc. As you say we don't know yet what the impact will be and everyone interested is chomping at the bit for the rest of the blogs! A key issue though is that many people play in hisec and run industry not for the safety but because they don't have the playing time required to run in null ( and as many have said logistics is the big problem in null which means much more time required) Losec and null should be able to run S&I but changes that also buff S&I in null alongside opening it up are effectively forcing people to choose whether to de-camp (which many can't) or become a second class industrialist through no fault of their own. If this is the case many players will have to choose whether to spend the same amount of time for less reward (in isk and game sense). or pick another game.
Anyone can move to null. It doesn't require any more time than highsec. I live in an npc null pvp alliance and we have no noticable politics to deal with. Provibloc is very welcoming to PVE players. Half of null is rented and once you and your corp rent a few systems most "rules" can be made by yourselves. NPC null has NPC stations anyone can dock in. It costs nothing to live in NPC null. Most manufacturers will stay in high sec no matter the changes so your competition will remain on the same cost base as you. Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
158
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 11:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
I see what you mean Corraidhin, but everything else being equal, more time = more ISK for just about any ISK-making activity you can do in EVE, regardless of the region you're operating in.
Consider this. If you're currently a successful highsec industrialist, your most valueable assets are, in order of importance:
1) your player skills and knowledge (difficult to acquire)
2) your indy-related SPs (long time to acquire)
3) your ISK (the less important of the three, because of PLEX)
The expansion won't take any of that away from you. More importantly, it won't give any of that 'for free' to any player that currently doesn't have it!
You may have a different take, but to me enjoying a competitive game like EVE means finding creative ways to leverage your assets to get ahead of other players. In this sense, any major change in game mechanics is a new challenge and a new opportunity to have fun 'proving' that you're better at the game than others. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
424
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Posted - 2014.04.28 14:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
I like you see this as a new challenge to adapt to and am already planning various ways to make best use of my skills, I'm actually arguing the point in defence of those who haven't the time or inclination to move to null. If as Silvetica says there is no additional time to make null sector existence viable then why are we told it is higher risk and reward? Higher risk must surely mean more effort required to mitigate this risk.
Personally I see it as opportunity and have always had the intention to move to other areas in space, although WH appeals to me more than null right now. My concern is that many who enjoy the industry/trading aspects of the game are gradually having their ability to compete eroded by such changes and I simply think in the long term this will be bad for the game. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
159
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 15:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I like you see this as a new challenge to adapt to and am already planning various ways to make best use of my skills, I'm actually arguing the point in defence of those who haven't the time or inclination to move to null. If as Silvetica says there is no additional time to make null sector existence viable then why are we told it is higher risk and reward? Higher risk must surely mean more effort required to mitigate this risk. I honestly don't know about null, but I'll give you the example of a profitable lowsec trading business that doesn't require much time invested.
I buy in highsec and haul in lowsec to sell. In lowsec, anybody is free to shoot me obviously.
On the other hand, I've learned to haul safely (dock/undock bookmarks for example) and I use a blockade runner which btw is also darn fast.
Furthermore, competition in lowsec is nothing like highsec, meaning I don't have to 'babysit' nor '0,01-ISK' my sell orders 10+ times a day.
At the end of the day, I make nice ISK with some risk but spending on average 30mins a day. I could spend even less time, I'd just make less ISK (due to less frequent re-stocking of sold-out orders, for example).
Granted, my main (this toon) being an active PVPer also helps me move around lowsec, but a pure indy player could learn quite quickly too.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Personally I see it as opportunity and have always had the intention to move to other areas in space, although WH appeals to me more than null right now. My concern is that many who enjoy the industry/trading aspects of the game are gradually having their ability to compete eroded by such changes and I simply think in the long term this will be bad for the game. You may be right, my take is that it all boils down to CCP's vision for the game.
Say you wanted to run a bar. You could either make it a classy bar, high prices, selected customers or a popular bar, low prices, many customers. Which is best? Hard to say, both can be profitable - or not.
Same with EVE imo. CCP could either keep making it challenging and captivating for a few gamers, or make it easier, reducing it's 'hardcore appeal', but possibly extending their customer base.
It's not easy to make the right call, let's just hope CCP will get it right for many more years to come! |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
581
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 18:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
making things more intuitive and easier is not always a good move. -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
233
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 19:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:You seen the most recent update? -5% material cost with POS.
Is there a source for this? Presumably some dev post buried deep into the comments threads?
Hopefully our dear Steve isn't pulling a masterful prank, or else I regret not voting higher for him. |
Flex Carter
Caldari Independant Mining Association
127
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 01:59:00 -
[19] - Quote
A little out of context but I thought this was kind of a funny quote from the latest Dev blog by CCP Greyscale. Quote:In the summer release, all base build costs will be increased by 11%. ME will then reduce build costs by 10% of that new base value, which brings us back to where we started.
WTF... why even make the damn change if it's going end up right back where we started. |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
233
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 02:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Flex Carter wrote:A little out of context but I thought this was kind of a funny quote from the latest Dev blog by CCP Greyscale. Quote:In the summer release, all base build costs will be increased by 11%. ME will then reduce build costs by 10% of that new base value, which brings us back to where we started. WTF... why even make the damn change if it's going end up right back where we started.
Because now the algorithm isn't ******** anymore and this means research is much friendlier to people with an IQ like yours |
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Flex Carter
Caldari Independant Mining Association
127
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 02:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
Loraine Gess wrote:Flex Carter wrote:A little out of context but I thought this was kind of a funny quote from the latest Dev blog by CCP Greyscale. Quote:In the summer release, all base build costs will be increased by 11%. ME will then reduce build costs by 10% of that new base value, which brings us back to where we started. WTF... why even make the damn change if it's going end up right back where we started. Because now the algorithm isn't ******** anymore and this means research is much friendlier to people with an IQ like yours
Funny how you mention a ******** algorithm and my understanding of it... Does that put us in the same boat Einstein? |
Marissia Trunball
Nexus Ore Technologies and Excavations Surely You're Joking
0
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Posted - 2014.04.29 03:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
I'm kinda curious if anyone knows where he got his numbers from for what current ME gives you a new ME of 10 (this is very important, since there's no point in researching anything past that number in the long run now). I threw a few attempts to replicate the numbers in a spreadsheet and couldn't. In terms of pure materials used (eg if it means that your blueprints will not use any more materials), any blueprint with an ME over 4 qualifies for a new ME of 10 (ME4 old system reduces your waste to 0.63%; anything under 1% will give you better results than ME9 in the new system). Changing it to percentage reduced from ME0 gives slightly different results, but still everything at ME7 (a 9.02% reduction in total materials from the post-waste amount) or higher would give you a new ME of 10.
Can anyone figure out what formula they used to calculate this? Or is it a mistake. In any case, it seems like BPOs with an ME / PE of 10 are going to become maxed, so there's no point in researching beyond 10 now. Good to know as I'm in the middle of researching some BPOs. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3145
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 06:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
Marissia Trunball wrote:I'm kinda curious if anyone knows where he got his numbers from for what current ME gives you a new ME of 10 (this is very important, since there's no point in researching anything past that number in the long run now). I threw a few attempts to replicate the numbers in a spreadsheet and couldn't. In terms of pure materials used (eg if it means that your blueprints will not use any more materials), any blueprint with an ME over 4 qualifies for a new ME of 10 (ME4 old system reduces your waste to 0.63%; anything under 1% will give you better results than ME9 in the new system). Changing it to percentage reduced from ME0 gives slightly different results, but still everything at ME7 (a 9.02% reduction in total materials from the post-waste amount) or higher would give you a new ME of 10.
Can anyone figure out what formula they used to calculate this? Or is it a mistake. In any case, it seems like BPOs with an ME / PE of 10 are going to become maxed, so there's no point in researching beyond 10 now. Good to know as I'm in the middle of researching some BPOs.
ME 4 doesn't reduce waste on blueprints to below 1%. On a 5% waste blueprint, it drops it to 1%. Most blueprints are 10% waste though.
On a 10% blueprint ME 0: 10% ME 1: 5% ME 2: 3.33% ME 3: 2.5% ME 4: 2% ME 5: 1.66% ME 6: 1.42% ME 7: 1.25% ME 8: 1.11% ME 9: 1% ME 10: 0.91%
on a 5% blueprint, halve them all.
wastefactor/ 1+ ME
Steve Ronuken for CSM 9! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4236322 http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3145
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 06:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
Loraine Gess wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:You seen the most recent update? -5% material cost with POS. Is there a source for this? Presumably some dev post buried deep into the comments threads? Hopefully our dear Steve isn't pulling a masterful prank, or else I regret not voting higher for him. Edit: Found it. This is a huge change. This patch will make me a rich man indeed.
Heh. When I talk about numbers, I try to be accurate. Mostly because it's lulling you all into a sense of security for my big score.
Ummm, I mean, because you can trust me. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4236322 http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Ashlar Maidstone
ImaNicePirate.com Real Alliance Such Relevance
68
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
Thank you all for your thoughts, inputs and discussion. Let's keep this going because we all know it's going to change big time, but depending on the direction I or anybody else takes, this remains to be seen. Again thanks |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
966
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 18:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ashlar Maidstone wrote:After the announcement by CCP recently I decided to reserve judgement till after the changes goes into effect. How about anyone else?? What's your thoughts??
My thoughts?
EPIC FAIL!
The changes to research are likely to make newbs rage over how they have to research 10x as long to get a sub 1% waste BPO. And for what? Removal of complexity? That could have been achieved by converting ME to float and hiding it behind the UI.
As for adding complexity, the STUPID new cost scaling has that in DROVES. I can't believe they made it solar system based instead of facility based. And the discount for multiple facilities is insanely complex... needlessly so.
And infinite slots with no cost scaling per concurrent job per facility, so there is no reason to have more than one of a facility at a POS. 27 titans under construction concurrently at a single supercap ship assembly array? DUMB!!!
Good: Max refine at POS. Compression array. New UI
Indifferent: Cap on reprocess return, T2 mining frig (I guess it is good if you harvest gas), removal of compression BPs.
Bad: BPO in POS (corp theft risk), work teams... big and rich get larger and richer while little startup is crushed. Copy too expensive at "per run", while ME and TE so cheap no one will ever research at POS.
Horrid: Research changes (newb rage akin to T2 BPO inbound), infinite slots, overly complex cost scaling, removing the need for research POS takes away major reason to leave NPC corp.
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Dr Myndbender Vyvorant
Myndbender Labs
0
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Posted - 2014.05.09 22:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
Wow, I thought I was on my way, I've have spent the countless hours training my Indy skills up grabbed BPOs and finally I have a c1 . The idea behind me venturing out on my own was to have the ability to start Industry jobs when ever I wanted, Use my scan skills and find Relics, Data, and Anomalies all I would need to do is farm out and Incorporate the PI and I should be able to run the POS from within the worm hole.
Being a solo player I am worried that I am not going to be in business for long, and all this preparation has been for nothing before I even got started. "Is the little guy Doomed" |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2194
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 23:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
Dr Myndbender Vyvorant wrote:Wow, I thought I was on my way, I've have spent the countless hours training my Indy skills up grabbed BPOs and finally I have a c1 . The idea behind me venturing out on my own was to have the ability to start Industry jobs when ever I wanted, Use my scan skills and find Relics, Data, and Anomalies all I would need to do is farm out and Incorporate the PI and I should be able to run the POS from within the worm hole.
Being a solo player I am worried that I am not going to be in business for long, and all this preparation has been for nothing before I even got started. "Is the little guy Doomed"
nope -- you're a lot more mobile than say Steve Ronuken -- he's probably pretty entrenched in some system, and it would take him AGES to pull down his towers, get stuff moved, and then set it all back up again.
You on the other hand see that (for example) Rifters aren't selling at so great a margin anymore ... pick up, move 3 constellations over, and start going again (chasing the wave ... and eventually learning how to get just enough ahead of it to make bank).
(edit -- yes I can spell) One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
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