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Timesink for timesinke sake..why?

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Lance Sindari	Posted - 2006.05.18 18:33:00 - [1] I've only been playing for a short time and like the game. But my biggest gripe is gratuitous time sinks. Skills made mandatory just to use equipment for no other reason then to slow your progression down... Lets just assume that there are fundamental diffrences between a Small meduim and large turret that you need that training.. But when you are talking nine different flavors of turret, and you need to train to use anyone of them is a bit much.. How much different can a Beam Laser turret be from an Energy, Blaster, or even Pulse.. I'm glad they stopped there..The next step was to seperate skills between Green and Read laser beams..
SengH	Posted - 2006.05.18 18:34:00 - [2] i dont think anyone sent him the memo about the skill required to change engine exhaust colors
Tuang Pao	Posted - 2006.05.18 18:37:00 - [3] Quote: Skills made mandatory just to use equipment for no other reason then to slow your progression down... You've anwered your own question. Congratulations.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.05.18 18:39:00 - [4] Originally by: Lance Sindari I've only been playing for a short time and like the game. But my biggest gripe is gratuitous time sinks. Skills made mandatory just to use equipment for no other reason then to slow your progression down... Lets just assume that there are fundamental diffrences between a Small meduim and large turret that you need that training.. But when you are talking nine different flavors of turret, and you need to train to use anyone of them is a bit much.. How much different can a Beam Laser turret be from an Energy, Blaster, or even Pulse.. I'm glad they stopped there..The next step was to seperate skills between Green and Read laser beams.. The green laser beams makes the pilot look more evil and should be feared! Seriously, yes, its kind of a timesink, but with the purpose of allowing people to specialize in things. Granted, for tech 2 large guns i think the requirements are quite excessive, specially with the penalities, but i guess its just one of those things we have to accept. It feels good when you eventually have the skills. --- The Eve Wiki Project
Xelios	Posted - 2006.05.18 18:40:00 - [5] Because without these time sinks people would have access to everything in a couple months, and then get bored, and then cancel their subscriptions. I'd rather be doing things while waiting for a skill to finish than have to grind the same boring NPC's over and over again to get the same effect.
Lance Sindari	Posted - 2006.05.18 18:40:00 - [6] It was more of a rhetorical , sarcastic question...
lofty29	Posted - 2006.05.18 18:40:00 - [7] Imagine it without it - Stupidly rich nubbin sees e-bay ISK, buys 500 billion isk. Stupidly rich nubbin buys all skills he needs for titans and every item for it. Stupidly rich nubbin buys everything he needs to make his titan. Stupidly rich nubbin, in 6 weeks, has built and is flying a titan at max skills. Yeah, fun --------------------------- I wanna be dev-jacked
Lance Sindari	Posted - 2006.05.18 18:45:00 - [8] Originally by: lofty29 Imagine it without it - Stupidly rich nubbin sees e-bay ISK, buys 500 billion isk. Stupidly rich nubbin buys all skills he needs for titans and every item for it. Stupidly rich nubbin buys everything he needs to make his titan. Stupidly rich nubbin, in 6 weeks, has built and is flying a titan at max skills. Yeah, fun I'm not advocating the drastic reduction of learning time to allow a titan in 6weeks....but trimming off timesink fat to have the average time to achieve a titan by three months isn't unreasonable..especially when the skills you had to learn were nothing more then a time sync.. Hell, I'd even be for increasing the learning time of skills in support of removing skills that make no sense...
SengH	Posted - 2006.05.18 18:50:00 - [9] You want a titan in 3 months???? Your smoking something good....
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.05.18 18:51:00 - [10] Originally by: Lance Sindari I'm not advocating the drastic reduction of learning time to allow a titan in 6weeks....but trimming off timesink fat to have the average time to achieve a titan by three months isn't unreasonable.. Not unreasonable ? 3 months ? Are you serious ? That would put dreads and carriers at what ? 2 months ? I suggest you play for a bit longer to get some perspective. You sound liek someone that can't deal with not having everything ni reach from day one. If you can hang on for another year then come back. Power to the players !
Lance Sindari	Posted - 2006.05.18 18:52:00 - [11] Originally by: SengH You want a titan in 3 months???? Your smoking something good.... Actually no, missed typed...should have said reduce the time to achieve on by 3 months.. IE regular time 18 months, remove fat 15 months etc...
Haniblecter Teg	Posted - 2006.05.18 18:56:00 - [12] Say Lance, how about we remove all the time sinks from the game and give you 2billion to boot. How would you feel about that fully officer kitted Command Ship? I bet it wouldnt feel as sweet if you put a little work into training up the skills and getting the ISK. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
Wulfstan	Posted - 2006.05.18 19:01:00 - [13] That's MMOGs for you. They need time and money sinks. That's just how they work. Eve has the best balance of anyone I've played. Skills are time sinks but don't need the playing grind. ISK needed to buy better ships and mods needs some grind, but you don't have to go for the expensive stuff. For a casual player like me it's a bit of a godsend. I can train the skills to fly anything as quick as someone who plays 8 hours a day (I just can't afford the ships when I get there ) Which brings me neatly on to ... HACs ... why are they so expensive? Just kidding ... step away from that Tech II torp launcher and unlock me
Zellin Dalimar	Posted - 2006.05.18 19:03:00 - [14] Eve is not a game where you can grind your way quickly to some mythical end-game by killing x number of MOBs for y number of XPs so you can reach Z level. I've been told, and believe it's true, that if you spend your first 1m SPs wisely, and fit your ship wisely also, you can be competitive with a player who has 10 times that amount of SPs. You won't be the biggest, baddest wolf in the pack, but you'll be in the pack at least. Grind for ISK, instead. Or join a good Corp and make some good friends and get them to share the wealth.
CaptainSeafort	Posted - 2006.05.18 19:04:00 - [15] Originally by: Lance Sindari I have a Glock17 and a Desert Eagle.. I know how a gun works, I know how ammo works.. I didn't have to go to 4 classes to learn about each gun and each ammo type.. Just 1 one class on Semi automatics.. /vote dumb quote of the year! okies dude. you have a catapult, an ICBM and some covert ops explosivey shnit. all viable ways to take down a stationary object. so, how would a roman work out how C4 works, the rocketeer work out how a catapult works and the spy dude work out how the ICBM work? =P lasers =/= railguns =/= autocanon - grow up! "Planets and moons no longer hitch rides on player ships. Their towel privileges have been revoked." HHGG Lives on in EVE!
Lance Sindari	Posted - 2006.05.18 19:06:00 - [16] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Say Lance, how about we remove all the time sinks from the game and give you 2billion to boot. How would you feel about that fully officer kitted Command Ship? I bet it wouldnt feel as sweet if you put a little work into training up the skills and getting the ISK. The discussion is about skills that make sense. Not removing time sinks. I'm not for removing time sinks. I'm not for removing timesinks. I'm not for removing time sinks. Got that.?..good. I know all about investment of time. I started MUDding in 1984, and haven't stopped playing some type of online game since.. In fact I'm all for paced progression. It allows for skills to progress with the equipment...nothing worse then a twinked out newbie with a Ebayed character.. My point is haveing skills thrown in just to make the progression longer and have it make not make sense in game.
Lance Sindari	Posted - 2006.05.18 19:12:00 - [17] Edited by: Lance Sindari on 18/05/2006 19:14:31 Originally by: CaptainSeafort [ /vote dumb quote of the year! okies dude. you have a catapult, an ICBM and some covert ops explosivey shnit. all viable ways to take down a stationary object. so, how would a roman work out how C4 works, the rocketeer work out how a catapult works and the spy dude work out how the ICBM work? =P lasers =/= railguns =/= autocanon - grow up! Read my point carfully I was comparring turret to turret in the game world. Turret technology can't be so radically different between 9 different types, that it requires speciall learning..maybe 3 catgories (Projectile, Energy, and hybrid) PS..not being a tool helps your arguments..
Torrence Osti	Posted - 2006.05.18 19:19:00 - [18] This thread gets my vote for dumb idea of the day.
Varis	Posted - 2006.05.18 19:22:00 - [19] Umm, something in there just to make progression slower == definition of timesink... /me is confused at what you are saying.
Adrian Kerensky	Posted - 2006.05.18 20:17:00 - [20] Edited by: Adrian Kerensky on 18/05/2006 20:17:53 Originally by: Lance Sindari average time to achieve a titan by three months isn't unreasonable..especially when the skills you had to learn were nothing more then a time sync.. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA What's the name of the stuff you're smoking? Sounds good... Seriously though - do you realise what that would do to the game? *shudders...
TheDeceit	Posted - 2006.05.18 20:29:00 - [21] If titans were that easy to train, I'd be flying one of them instead of the HAC I have now! I don't know about you, OPer, but I would really not enjoy EVE if every fifth person was flying capital ships. --------
Mikel Crenshaw	Posted - 2006.05.18 20:31:00 - [22] Just what skills are you having issues with as time sinks. I've found that the skills I've been training are quite useful in and of them selves. The fact that at certain levels I get extra perks like tech II autocannons is just icing on the cake. As it stands the split in turret weapons makes sense. They all require a different philosophy to use properly so they are all trained differently. It's easier to see as you play the game more and learn about more of the nuances. In addition the split into specialization skills is just that, a split that allows player to use specialized weaponry (i.e. tech II weapons). Not everyone even needs tech II weapons, so there isn't a huge need to train it unless you plan to specialize heavily. My advice is not to see skills as the means to get something, but rather a helpful perk that adds to your existing ability. Also, if you're having troubles understanding why there are so many skills for gunnery try to think of the skills as more than just firing the gun, but also more specific things like maintainence and more specialized operation of the gun. For example while knowing how to fire the turret of a tank (small artillery) will help with your knowledge (making it a prerequisite) of firing a ship based howitzer (large artillery) it does not mean that knowing how to fire the tank gun allows you to fire the ship gun without any training. That's my take on the seperate skills for each size of gun, so take from it what you will. --------------------- "I am not a liberator. Liberators do not exist. The people liberate themselves."
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.05.18 20:32:00 - [23] EvE is very cruel. Level up too fast while being a newb is bad. Buys too many T2s, die too fast. T2 market gets popped. Everybody cries. Slow progression. You learn better. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
K1K1R1K1	Posted - 2006.05.18 20:45:00 - [24] 3 months for a titan maybe a bit too drastic of a change, but I think he's onto something. Training does take too long. What if we all received installments of 4 million skill points every month that we could put into any skills we wanted. That, combined with a new set of advanced advanced learning skills (rank .28 to save even more time) should solve this long overlooked problem. Anyone have any other ideas to get around this problem? ____________________________________________ Don't worry aboutit
empireprices	Posted - 2006.05.18 20:55:00 - [25] Originally by: K1K1R1K1 3 months for a titan maybe a bit too drastic of a change, but I think he's onto something. Training does take too long. What if we all received installments of 4 million skill points every month that we could put into any skills we wanted. That, combined with a new set of advanced advanced learning skills (rank .28 to save even more time) should solve this long overlooked problem. Anyone have any other ideas to get around this problem? Four million a month. Four million a month. Look at that number, hang your head in shame and go stand facing a corner wearing a dunce hat.
Hunters Presence	Posted - 2006.05.18 20:56:00 - [26] Originally by: Zellin Dalimar I've been told, and believe it's true, that if you spend your first 1m SPs wisely, and fit your ship wisely also, you can be competitive with a player who has 10 times that amount of SPs. You won't be the biggest, baddest wolf in the pack, but you'll be in the pack at least. 995,966 skill points and I can fly both my race's battleships, use every t1 laser weapon available, use heavy drones, use webbers, use ecm, use scramblers, run a corp, use armour boosters, use cap rechargers, use power relays, use tracking aids, use implants, use stabs, etc, etc I'm as competitive in a PvP fight (1v1 or otherwise) as anyone else. ----- Lead Games Programmer @ Quasit-Rushyo Games \| Me!
Xenon Cypher	Posted - 2006.05.18 21:12:00 - [27] Originally by: Hunters Presence Originally by: Zellin Dalimar I've been told, and believe it's true, that if you spend your first 1m SPs wisely, and fit your ship wisely also, you can be competitive with a player who has 10 times that amount of SPs. You won't be the biggest, baddest wolf in the pack, but you'll be in the pack at least. 995,966 skill points and I can fly both my race's battleships, use every t1 laser weapon available, use heavy drones, use webbers, use ecm, use scramblers, run a corp, use armour boosters, use cap rechargers, use power relays, use tracking aids, use implants, use stabs, etc, etc I'm as competitive in a PvP fight (1v1 or otherwise) as anyone else. Erm...not when the person who is older than you can do double your damage and tank for a hell of a lot longer...
Zissou	Posted - 2006.05.18 21:27:00 - [28] Originally by: Xelios Because without these time sinks people would have access to everything in a couple months, and then get bored, and then cancel their subscriptions. I'd rather be doing things while waiting for a skill to finish than have to grind the same boring NPC's over and over again to get the same effect. So instead they make you progress slowly, so it takes longer for you to get bored and cancel your subscription.
Captain Napalm	Posted - 2006.05.18 21:31:00 - [29] Why even bother arguing with new players? It's not like they're arguing with experience here.
Zissou	Posted - 2006.05.18 21:33:00 - [30] Originally by: Zellin Dalimar I've been told, and believe it's true, that if you spend your first 1m SPs wisely, and fit your ship wisely also, you can be competitive with a player who has 10 times that amount of SPs. You won't be the biggest, baddest wolf in the pack, but you'll be in the pack at least. You can only train your skills to 5. Once you have 5 points in a skill you're as good as anyone else in the game. Millions of skill points just means they have lots of skills in lots of different areas. Everyone in this game is just working their way slowly towards having every skill at the same level as everyone else.

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