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Dust Angel
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Posted - 2006.05.23 01:44:00 -
[1]
Why is a nerf that occured 2 years ago to fix a problem that no longer exists still around? I dont care if you nerf our agility, but for heavens sake, reduce our mass. Please? _____________________________________ Stressed out with empire politics?
Sansha's Nation helps clear your mind.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2006.05.23 01:46:00 -
[2]
honestly the only problem i see is the fact some caldari ships, mainly frigates seem to have warp issues.. like it taking an insane amount of cap to make a warp from A to B in some systems.
other than that, caldari are the slow race... we got missiles we dont need optimals and stuff, yanno its a trade off ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD |
jbob2000
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Posted - 2006.05.23 01:46:00 -
[3]
No. Caldari can already fight from 0-maxrangeofmissiles so this is fine. You don't have to worry about your speed to get decent hits.
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Dust Angel
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Posted - 2006.05.23 01:48:00 -
[4]
Originally by: jbob2000 No. Caldari can already fight from 0-maxrangeofmissiles so this is fine. You don't have to worry about your speed to get decent hits.
Its not about speed. I dont mind us being slow. However, the mass on our ships, which btw, have the smallest volume, oh, and highest mass ACROSS THE BOARD. Our electronic shield systems are more massive than armor plates _____________________________________ Stressed out with empire politics?
Sansha's Nation helps clear your mind.
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Foulis
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Posted - 2006.05.23 02:02:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Dust Angel
Originally by: jbob2000 No. Caldari can already fight from 0-maxrangeofmissiles so this is fine. You don't have to worry about your speed to get decent hits.
Its not about speed. I dont mind us being slow. However, the mass on our ships, which btw, have the smallest volume, oh, and highest mass ACROSS THE BOARD. Our electronic shield systems are more massive than armor plates
You know what's really funny? The moa has more mass than the Cyclone BC. ----
Cake > Pie - Imaran
Originally by: CCP Hammer Boobies
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Meridius
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Posted - 2006.05.23 02:02:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dust Angel
Our electronic shield systems are more massive than armor plates
How do you know electronic/shield systems don't weigh more then armor plates?
Thats right, you don't. - _____
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Audri Fisher
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Posted - 2006.05.23 02:15:00 -
[7]
Originally by: jbob2000 No. Caldari can already fight from 0-maxrangeofmissiles so this is fine. You don't have to worry about your speed to get decent hits.
Except all of my caldari gunboats have range bonuses, not damage or ROF bonuses, are shield tankers, so they have to expend tremendous amounts of cap realtive to armor tankers, so trying to stay out of NOS range is critical, and they are the worst off to maintian range.
Nice try though
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Malken
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Posted - 2006.05.23 02:16:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Foulis
Originally by: Dust Angel
Originally by: jbob2000 No. Caldari can already fight from 0-maxrangeofmissiles so this is fine. You don't have to worry about your speed to get decent hits.
Its not about speed. I dont mind us being slow. However, the mass on our ships, which btw, have the smallest volume, oh, and highest mass ACROSS THE BOARD. Our electronic shield systems are more massive than armor plates
You know what's really funny? The moa has more mass than the Cyclone BC.
duct tape and chicken wire weighs less then electronics you know
Quote:
[05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
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Sadist
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Posted - 2006.05.23 02:28:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Sadist on 23/05/2006 02:28:55
Originally by: Dust Angel Whine whine whine
You also have the highest sensor strength. So stfu and deal with it.
--------------- VIP member of the [23]
Quote: - Numbers alone do not win a battle - No, but I bet they help.
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Dust Angel
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Posted - 2006.05.23 02:58:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Sadist Edited by: Sadist on 23/05/2006 02:28:55
Originally by: Dust Angel Whine whine whine
You also have the highest sensor strength. So stfu and deal with it.
Because sensor stenght has so much to do with mass? _____________________________________ Stressed out with empire politics?
Sansha's Nation helps clear your mind.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2006.05.23 03:06:00 -
[11]
battlecruisers might have less mass than some caldari ships but they still have lower topspeed and much worse agility.. mass isnt the ONLY factor ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD |
Audri Fisher
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Posted - 2006.05.23 03:14:00 -
[12]
Enter the ferox, where it all comes a head, I go shopping for groceries on a 8 jump jaunt in my ferox with evasive manuvering 4 and come back and I am still traveling.
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Breed Love
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Posted - 2006.05.23 03:18:00 -
[13]
Caldari are already overpowered like hell, wtf are you whining about? ------ Originally by: Gazon In any case, the whole affair had one lasting effect: Awarding Stormriders the label of ridiculous drug addicts with a tendency towards utterly foolish actions.
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Foulis
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Posted - 2006.05.23 03:19:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jim Raynor battlecruisers might have less mass than some caldari ships but they still have lower topspeed and much worse agility.. mass isnt the ONLY factor
I know, I just enjoy poking the hornets nest. ----
Cake > Pie - Imaran
Originally by: CCP Hammer Boobies
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Wesley Harding
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Posted - 2006.05.23 03:46:00 -
[15]
Turning and acceleration are all I care about. You can even reduce the top speeds a bit. Just let them be able to use ABs and MWDs as easily as the other races.
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Foulis
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Posted - 2006.05.23 03:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Wesley Harding Turning and acceleration are all I care about. You can even reduce the top speeds a bit. Just let them be able to use ABs and MWDs as easily as the other races.
You can use ABs and MWDs as easilly as the other races, just not as well. Which is the way it should be. ----
Cake > Pie - Imaran
Originally by: CCP Hammer Boobies
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Kyozoku
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Posted - 2006.05.23 04:03:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Kyozoku on 23/05/2006 04:03:09 double post
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Kyozoku
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Posted - 2006.05.23 04:03:00 -
[18]
Why shouldn't caldari have the highest mass and what's so crippling about it?
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Dust Angel
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Posted - 2006.05.23 04:10:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kyozoku Why shouldn't caldari have the highest mass and what's so crippling about it?
A) cladari ships do not have excessive armor. B) caldari ships are small. C) caldari ships primarily rely on shields for defense. d) caldari ships are the smallest ships in the game, but WEIGH the most. this is particularly debilitating for frigs, but can be felt at other ship class levels too. _____________________________________ Stressed out with empire politics?
Sansha's Nation helps clear your mind.
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Valea Silpha
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Posted - 2006.05.23 04:10:00 -
[20]
Mass is only really relevent when its low. Minnies get low mass, since they need to be comparatively nippy. After that, no-one really cares except the OP i think. Its not like you get NO boost from MWD and AB .. just less than faster races.
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
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Valea Silpha
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Posted - 2006.05.23 04:12:00 -
[21]
When you have possibly the most ubiquitous inty (crow) on your side, and you say that your frigs are 'debilitated' i laugh. HARD.
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
Dust Angel
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Posted - 2006.05.23 04:36:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Valea Silpha When you have possibly the most ubiquitous inty (crow) on your side, and you say that your frigs are 'debilitated' i laugh. HARD.
I wasent particularly talking about intys. As is, inties are fine. However, across the other ship classes, AF, Frigs, Cruisers, HACs, BS, BC, Carriers, motherships. CALDARI HAVE THE HIGHEST MASS, BY FAR. _____________________________________ Stressed out with empire politics?
Sansha's Nation helps clear your mind.
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Merin Ryskin
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Posted - 2006.05.23 04:44:00 -
[23]
Originally by: jbob2000 No. Caldari can already fight from 0-maxrangeofmissiles so this is fine. You don't have to worry about your speed to get decent hits.
Agility =/= speed. The request is for better handling, not faster speed.
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Dust Angel
Our electronic shield systems are more massive than armor plates
How do you know electronic/shield systems don't weigh more then armor plates?
Thats right, you don't.
Ok, lets use a little common sense here. This is just stupid, electronics are not solid blocks, armor is. And armor is usually made of the densest materials possible to make it as hard as possible. That means much higher mass per unit of volume compared to electronics which are usually lighter materials and lots of air space.
It only gets worse when you compare the ship sizes. Not only are their materials lighter for the same volume, but they're <i>smaller ships.</i> Anyone with a tiny bit of physics knowledge knows that there is no possible way for Caldari ships to be so heavy.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2006.05.23 04:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Dust Angel I wasent particularly talking about intys. As is, inties are fine. However, across the other ship classes, AF, Frigs, Cruisers, HACs, BS, BC, Carriers, motherships. CALDARI HAVE THE HIGHEST MASS, BY FAR.
Armageddon weighs as much as a Raven and it's a tier 1. Apoc weighs a few % less then a Raven and has the same speed.
THE SKY IS FALLING - _____
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Nikolai Nuvolari
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Posted - 2006.05.23 04:54:00 -
[25]
This isn't about speed, so don't twist the argument.
Okay, hold on, even though speed isn't the issue, I'll respond to it...
If missileboats don't need speed, explain the Harpy, Cormorant, Moa, Eagle, and Ferox.
Ahem, now back to the REAL issue.
If you want to debate it on RP grounds, which I'm happy to do, then the argument that shield generators are heavier than armor is absurd beyond belief. What do you think they're MADE OF? Amarrian armor is made out of tungsten carbide, and they have HUGE ships that are COVERED with it. I don't know what you think the shield generators are made of, but they would have to fill half the volume of our ships to weigh that much.
In fact, I'm going to make this much, much simpler.
This picture explains everything.
According to the database, the ship on the left is 115 million kilograms. The one on the right is 107.5 million kilograms.
I DO NOT BUY THAT FOR ONE SINGLE SECOND. -------- Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk [04:21:15] Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw [07:38:53] Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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OrangeAfroMan
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Posted - 2006.05.23 04:55:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Audri Fisher
Originally by: jbob2000 No. Caldari can already fight from 0-maxrangeofmissiles so this is fine. You don't have to worry about your speed to get decent hits.
Except all of my caldari gunboats have range bonuses, not damage or ROF bonuses, are shield tankers, so they have to expend tremendous amounts of cap realtive to armor tankers, so trying to stay out of NOS range is critical, and they are the worst off to maintian range.
Nice try though
With a range bonus why should you even be anywhere NEAR nos range??
Gronsak is Tux's angry alt. |
OrangeAfroMan
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Posted - 2006.05.23 05:00:00 -
[27]
Edited by: OrangeAfroMan on 23/05/2006 05:00:42
Originally by: Dust Angel
Originally by: Kyozoku Why shouldn't caldari have the highest mass and what's so crippling about it?
A) cladari ships do not have excessive armor. B) caldari ships are small. C) caldari ships primarily rely on shields for defense. d) caldari ships are the smallest ships in the game, but WEIGH the most. this is particularly debilitating for frigs, but can be felt at other ship class levels too.
Sorry for double posts but have you ever heard of density? Smaller size with equal or more equipment = higher density.
Now there may not be a *huge* roleplaying reason for Caldari having high mass - but its a balance thing. For example, the high sensor strength mentioned IS relevent, because the higher strength in another area makes up for the lower strength in another.
Either way, Caldari do ***NOT*** need to move fast. Especially not for free - perhaps you would like to be like Minmatar and trade a bunch of your tank for the speed?
Gronsak is Tux's angry alt. |
Meridius
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Posted - 2006.05.23 05:01:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari
If missileboats don't need speed, explain the Harpy, Cormorant, Moa, Eagle, and Ferox.
All railgun ships with range bonus's?
LONG RANGE SHIPS DO NOT DEPEND ON SPEED
- _____
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Dust Angel
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Posted - 2006.05.23 05:10:00 -
[29]
Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Edited by: OrangeAfroMan on 23/05/2006 05:00:42
Originally by: Dust Angel
Originally by: Kyozoku Why shouldn't caldari have the highest mass and what's so crippling about it?
A) cladari ships do not have excessive armor. B) caldari ships are small. C) caldari ships primarily rely on shields for defense. d) caldari ships are the smallest ships in the game, but WEIGH the most. this is particularly debilitating for frigs, but can be felt at other ship class levels too.
Now there may not be a *huge* roleplaying reason for Caldari having high mass - but its a balance thing. For example, the high sensor strength mentioned IS relevent, because the higher strength in another area makes up for the lower strength in another.
thats a moot point. Caldari have the longest ranged sensors, but have the slowest locking times. Point, and counter point. _____________________________________ Stressed out with empire politics?
Sansha's Nation helps clear your mind.
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Merin Ryskin
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Posted - 2006.05.23 05:21:00 -
[30]
Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Sorry for double posts but have you ever heard of density? Smaller size with equal or more equipment = higher density.
Are you dishonest or just stupid? There is absolutely no way Caldari ships can have such a high density. For those numbers to work, there are two options:
1) A Caldari battleship is a solid block of armor, which it clearly isn't. Not only would that leave no room for internal systems, but Caldari ships have pathetic armor HP.
2) Non-Caldari ships have massive amounts of empty space inside. Which of course goes completely against any halfway sane warship design. Not only would you lose agility from the extra hull structure required to frame it, but you're increasing the surface area of the ship and demanding more armor plate which means even worse handling. And the only thing you gain is visual appearance.
Quote: Either way, Caldari do ***NOT*** need to move fast. Especially not for free - perhaps you would like to be like Minmatar and trade a bunch of your tank for the speed?
1) Speed =/= agility. Mass has nothing to do with speed, only turn rate and warp capacitor use.
2) Yes, I WOULD make that trade. Range is the ultimate tank, and I'd rather have the ability to decide the range than a little extra armor HP.
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