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The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.09.22 17:42:00 -
[1]
Okay, have made numerous post on this subject. Now I just want a simple answer. Are you going to let missles/cruise/torps continue to knock battle ships around like they do (i.e. 2 missle hits will stop and virtually reverse a battle ships direction at full thottle)?
I need to know because thise will have a long term effect on the skills I choose to continue developing and alter ship layouts.
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.09.23 01:18:00 -
[2]
^
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Tremador
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Posted - 2003.09.23 03:04:00 -
[3]
I agree completely. I want an answer to this too. Currently I fly a megathron, and had a buddy shoot some light missles at me. It was rediculous how much i got thrown around by em, it makes no sense what so ever ... so TomB, what are you gonna do? :) Whats your answer!
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.23 04:29:00 -
[4]
You guys know you're in space right? Being big and heavy doesn't mean much.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.09.23 04:37:00 -
[5]
"You guys know you're in space right? Being big and heavy doesn't mean much."
Then hybrids would knock you across the universe. Anyhow, there is a huge imbalance with this if used in the right way. It especially hurts short ranged weapon users and poor tracking folks.
But this has already been pointed out. Just want an answer cause if it is staying in game then I going to use it to my advantage.
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.09.23 05:18:00 -
[6]
 Quote:
You guys know you're in space right? Being big and heavy doesn't mean much.
in space, being big and heavy means everything, ok? force from a missiles can't compete with the battleship's own propulsion system and own mass.you don't think a nuke can blow a star away, do you?
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.09.23 06:37:00 -
[7]
Quote:
You guys know you're in space right? Being big and heavy doesn't mean much.
Veruna you need to go back to Physics 101. All that matters is mass and force. The only thing missing in space is substantial amount of gravity, which is just a constant vector force acting upon objects.
The force of a missile impact, whether it be a torpedo, cruise missile, light missile, or ANYTHING for that matter, cannot POSSIBLY hope to have any discernible effect (from an outside camera's point of view) on a ship the size of a battleship.
For a battleship not to be torn to shreds by the force of the impact of a missile that knocks it from 120 m/s forward to like 200 m/s in the other direction, it would have to have a hull made of stronger alloy than anyone can possibly conceive of. And the missile would have to be more powerful than anything you can imagine.
And if that were the case, everyone inside would easily be killed in the blink of an eye.
This situation is SIMPLY NOT REALISTIC BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION. Impact from ANY missile be it torpedo, cruise, or light missile, should have little to no effect on the speed and direction of travel of a frigate let alone a battleship.
Just do the force computations yourself, and you will see.
And yes, I second Tank CEO's motion for a simple answer from TomB about this issue. It is long overdue.
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Ka'loor
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Posted - 2003.09.23 10:33:00 -
[8]
A frigate might get thrown around, basically its directional vetor shifted. A cruiser would get rattled, a BB would get .5% speed loss by a torp. thats about it, anything else is just totally impossible.
My Maller already comes at 10.800 TONS. how do you throw that around?.........not with a single torp.....
Attack without mercy, until blood is gone, until life is gone, until the light is gone, unto the shadow itself.
Better to die with honor, than to live in shame. |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.23 10:39:00 -
[9]
And in space you don't get one of the maior damaging factors of atmosphere missles - the pressure wave. You need matter (aka air) for that.
Eve's combat is highly unrealisticly, though. The bevaviour of missles is not more or less unrealisticly than the ship movement. It's pretty annoying, though.
free speech not allowed here |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.23 11:02:00 -
[10]
A light missle from a npc pirate made my raven do a 360, seriously. It's stupid, battleships have huge mass, missles should not send battleships spinning out of control. I'm not expert in the physics of space combat but from a gameplay standpoint, it's retarded.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.23 11:54:00 -
[11]
First, please please please please let's not bring reality into this discussion. If you do I'll be forced to bring the reality of the fact that many of the ships wouldn't be spaceworthy in the first place, being torn apart by stress from their engines or so wildly imbalanced by the engine vector they'd make great space tops.
2nd, while I dislike the massive effects I find it is also an unintended advantage of missile users. Given that upping the damage really is out of the question, as they'd become unbalanced, a side effect is a great advantage for them. Until TomB gets around to coding actual side effects (thermal causing DoT if hitting on armor, EM breaking locks ect...), let's leave this one eh?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.23 12:07:00 -
[12]
Quote:
First, please please please please let's not bring reality into this discussion. If you do I'll be forced to bring the reality of the fact that many of the ships wouldn't be spaceworthy in the first place, being torn apart by stress from their engines or so wildly imbalanced by the engine vector they'd make great space tops.
2nd, while I dislike the massive effects I find it is also an unintended advantage of missile users. Given that upping the damage really is out of the question, as they'd become unbalanced, a side effect is a great advantage for them. Until TomB gets around to coding actual side effects (thermal causing DoT if hitting on armor, EM breaking locks ect...), let's leave this one eh?
I fly a raven and missles are basically my entire offense and I don't agree, heh.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.09.23 12:10:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Jarjar on 23/09/2003 12:10:53
I'd say it is a great disadvantage, and I'm soon in a caldari bship too.
Anyone with experience (I will try it out on thursday, but it would be nice to know), I suppose stasis webs do help?
Like... Dual stasis, spam with cruise missiles. Does the enemy ship still move away at those pretty high speeds or are they also reduced by the stasis?
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.23 12:12:00 -
[14]
Quote:
Quote:
First, please please please please let's not bring reality into this discussion. If you do I'll be forced to bring the reality of the fact that many of the ships wouldn't be spaceworthy in the first place, being torn apart by stress from their engines or so wildly imbalanced by the engine vector they'd make great space tops.
2nd, while I dislike the massive effects I find it is also an unintended advantage of missile users. Given that upping the damage really is out of the question, as they'd become unbalanced, a side effect is a great advantage for them. Until TomB gets around to coding actual side effects (thermal causing DoT if hitting on armor, EM breaking locks ect...), let's leave this one eh?
I fly a raven and missles are basically my entire offense and I don't agree, heh.
Well some of us aren't lucky enough to fly the Giant Spitball Launcher and have to settle for 4/4 configs (Tempests, Typhoon) or 3/3 configs (Rupture). And just because someone has yet to come up with an effective missile defense without sacrificing offense (2 ravens meet, both with siege launchers but one with all defenders....ooo PURTY Fiyahwerks!!!  ) doesn't mean someone won't and send missile users back to harange TomB some more.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Valeria
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Posted - 2003.09.23 12:13:00 -
[15]
Stasis does nothing. Stasis affects the actual ship entitys top speed, and thus have no affect on what other forces do to it.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.09.23 12:27:00 -
[16]
Ouch... Then maybe 4 turrets would be a wiser idea atm.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.23 13:17:00 -
[17]
i have no problem with the impact missles deliver, or even the reduced velocity (though its too high atm), it's just too much right now. my battleship gets turned around 180 degrees everytime im hit by a light or heavy missle, it's just too much.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Fausto
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Posted - 2003.09.23 13:52:00 -
[18]
Well it's not realistic right? Seen any space ships in Eearth's orbit lately? I can't belive big arse pirates complaining about being hit by a missile?!? Tired of being spanked by frigates with missiles?
______
<brainpodder> |
Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.09.23 16:24:00 -
[19]
Quote:
First, please please please please let's not bring reality into this discussion.
Inasmuch as CCP has tried to make the game effects as realistic as possible given certain "unrealistic" things, such as spaceships, warp drives, jump gates, etc. I think it is relevent to bring it up.
Why do you see a blue tint while looking forward in warp and a red tint while looking backward? Because that is what you would see IF it were possible to travel at such high speeds.
So inasmuch as the game strives for realism, I think they need to adjust the way missiles affect ships.
And I am also a missile user, I use virtually only torpedos and cruise missiles. Stasis web does nothing, and I find that when attacking battleships (in my blackbird muahhaha) they are frequently thrown out of stasis web range and then shortly they are thrown out of warp disruptor range.
It just sucks and needs to be changed.
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The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.09.23 16:34:00 -
[20]
Thanks for keep this bumped up there folks. Hopefully TomB will see this soon and give some kind of response.
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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The Major
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Posted - 2003.09.23 16:50:00 -
[21]
Edited by: The Major on 23/09/2003 16:51:45
If you bring realism into it then you have to relise that in space ships wouldn't have a "top speed" and wouldn't keep their engines on to move at this "top speed". If you're engines are on you accelerate until you reverse thrust (IE Turn around) or your ship falls apart or flies into something very large (Very large being a massive understatement).
So really the best we can do is keep all discussion relative to the pseudo-physics present in the game world as the physics engine is by no means realistic. It's not even close. The only areas that CCP strive for realism in are graphics. In the rest they strive for a balanced game within technology limitations (Newtonian physics would in fact be amazingly impractical given Eve's technology).
So my perception on the matter: Frigates would get thrown around, their relative mass copared to a battleship is tiny and their engines small and they still turn on a dime. Battleships are very very big and as a result very very slow with very low agility. Not only should the explosion of all missiles not affect them (Okay maybe torps should because they have a stupidly large payload) but ramming one to send it spinning shouldn't affect them unles sit's another Battleship going very very fast.
Similarly if you get knocked around in anything that size you should be knocked around in accordance with your ships own agility rating including any mods you've used to make it more agile.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.09.23 17:31:00 -
[22]
Which battleships are getting knocked around?
My scorpion does not get knocked around by heavy missiles.
Perhaps it is a bug related to certain ships.
The scorpion is the smallest bship, no?
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MIkkia
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Posted - 2003.09.23 18:03:00 -
[23]
I almost wonder if TomB will ever read this post. I check the forums daily, and this seems to be one of the most important issues out there right now. TOMB! Are you out there? :)
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Valeria
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Posted - 2003.09.23 19:14:00 -
[24]
My Scorpion is getting knocked around like a purple mitten. Almost lost it to frigate NPCs the other day since all those light missiles kept it from aligning to warp.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Cuisinart
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Posted - 2003.09.24 01:11:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Cuisinart on 24/09/2003 01:15:11
It would be nice to hear the dev's take on this. personally I think it's just stupid that the explosions have such a pronounced affect on ships course and speed...
Vision without action is a daydream
Action without vision is a nightmare |
Golgrath
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Posted - 2003.09.24 05:05:00 -
[26]
This would be good and easy to answer question for today's CSM meeting.
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Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2003.09.24 10:26:00 -
[27]
I hate to break it to those that dont know physics, but being in space does not make the inertia go away. Newton's Laws at the macro level still work. So any impact that does damage sould be doing what missiles are doing or missiles should not be knocking ships all over the place. Who needs warp scramblers when light missle hits make it impossible to warp?
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.09.24 13:21:00 -
[28]
"This would be good and easy to answer question for today's CSM meeting."
Well if someone could bring it up I would appreciate it. Like I said, either way is fine with me. Just want an answer.
From what I have been told by several sources, this level of effect was not intended (I can see why).
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.09.24 19:57:00 -
[29]
Clearly TomB must be sitting in a lazy chair with an ice pack on his head recovering from all the stress produced by getting the last patch together and the aftermath.
No worries, I will keep this bumped till an answer comes forth.
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Klatuu
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Posted - 2003.09.24 21:48:00 -
[30]
u got my vote... knockback is way too high, kind of makes it hard to close distance.
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Rising Sin
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Posted - 2003.09.25 06:11:00 -
[31]
I like the fact that I can push targets backwards with missiles but not ALL the time. Maybe remove knockback from normal missiles and make a new missile type that has lower damage but has the knockback effect?
--
"If they're shooting at you, you know you must be doing something right." |
The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.09.25 14:53:00 -
[32]
No one touched on this in the CSM so ^ .
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.09.25 17:00:00 -
[33]
TomB ... wru wru ...
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Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2003.09.25 17:42:00 -
[34]
Quote:
I hate to break it to those that dont know physics, but being in space does not make the inertia go away. Newton's Laws at the macro level still work. So any impact that does damage sould be doing what missiles are doing or missiles should not be knocking ships all over the place.
You're quite right AFAIK. If I recall high-school physics, kinetic energy is mass times (velocity squared). So in fact a light missile should have WAAAAY less of a knockback effect than say a 1400 arty or a L Neutron, due to its much lower velocity. The key factor in impact is much more the velocity than the mass of the object. Explosions in space also have zero shockwave effect, as it is vacuum and does not have a medium like air or water to transfer the effect. Granted other kinds of splash (EM, Kin, Heat) would still transmit I expect but I can't see why heat or EM would have a knockback effect).
BW
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.09.25 21:37:00 -
[35]
Well knowing a bit of physics my self, the fact that a missle knocks something back is 100% against the philosophy of a misile. they are designed to transfer energy throught the ship not onto the entire ship as a whole. Its like this, does it hurt more to get pushed or punched, though both would use the same force, sure the push would knock u back more, but the punch would be more painful (causing for damage).
Realisticly Rail guns would be the most devistating weapons, considering they move about 50kilomiters in 1/5 a second in this game. which is esentially 250kms a second, or 250000 meters a second. But then realism is sacrificed for game play, where for missles its sacrafised to hurt game play.
Simple as this, lower the knock back of missles by a great deal, a BS shaking is fine by me, but it flying away is the most rediculouse thing i have ever heard of.
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The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.09.26 15:37:00 -
[36]
^
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.09.27 19:02:00 -
[37]
^
Infinate amount of patience I have.
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Zarthan
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Posted - 2003.09.27 19:41:00 -
[38]
an answer we must have....
(tomb insert comment here)
_______________________________________________________
Get custom sigs and graphics done here
Unforgivn Website
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Bobith
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Posted - 2003.09.27 23:28:00 -
[39]
hmm still no anser to this qurstion i thoulght by now thered be some dev saying its being looked at.
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Rising Sin
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Posted - 2003.09.27 23:41:00 -
[40]
This is definitely something for CSM.
--
"If they're shooting at you, you know you must be doing something right." |
The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.09.28 20:40:00 -
[41]
Daily bump.
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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QBall
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Posted - 2003.09.28 22:08:00 -
[42]
Yes an answer would be nice.
--------
"OMG IT'S TRAMMEL 2.0!!!!"
-QBall
And
QQ is QQ |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.09.29 11:48:00 -
[43]
Bump.
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Jerrod Syn
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Posted - 2003.09.29 14:21:00 -
[44]
Quote:
Bump.
..ity bump.
I mainly use Hybrids, though I do still like my Kestrel with 4 launchers..
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.09.29 21:20:00 -
[45]
It will be looked at soon, we havn't been doing anything else than working on fixing the bugs out there since the last patch came with balance/tunes.
"Where is my hat?" |
TomB
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Posted - 2003.09.29 21:22:00 -
[46]
Sorry about the lack of attention I have been giving, the client/server needed all our attention
"Where is my hat?" |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.09.29 21:43:00 -
[47]
*jumps up and down*
I hope "looked at" means fixing, not investigating or such...
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The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.09.29 22:44:00 -
[48]
Edited by: The Wretch on 29/09/2003 22:46:39
Excellent. Please let this thread die now  .
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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QBall
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Posted - 2003.09.29 22:50:00 -
[49]
Just like a birthday card a late answer is better than no answer at all. Thanks TomB.
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"OMG IT'S TRAMMEL 2.0!!!!"
-QBall
And
QQ is QQ |
Zulu Alpha
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Posted - 2003.10.01 09:29:00 -
[50]
TomB,
AFAIC it's great news that you've been focussing on the bugs and fixes. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Zulu Alpha
Vortex Inc |
agrizla
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Posted - 2003.10.01 11:50:00 -
[51]
Edited by: agrizla on 01/10/2003 11:53:39
Edited by: agrizla on 01/10/2003 11:51:10
Funnily enough after having this issue do my head in for ages, it actually saved my BS today.
I had a treble spawn of 30-50k Angels, so there were 16 of them targeting me Obviously since the little sods warped in within 20km I was warp jammed/webbed and so I resigned myself to being toast - although I was gonna take as many as I could with me. Anyway after much frantic toggling of the shield booster they were all behind me and the missiles had boosted me to 700m/s Got 20km from them and warped without any armour damage at all. Not an experience I would recommend though 
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Ka'loor
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Posted - 2003.10.01 19:21:00 -
[52]
Its quite stupid if you actually want to close with the damn pirates, but to get away its quite nice, a single missle propels me another 100m/s away from em..........
Attack without mercy, until blood is gone, until life is gone, until the light is gone, unto the shadow itself.
Better to die with honor, than to live in shame. |
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