Thoughts?

Thoughts?

O Fortuna
velut luna
statu variabilis,
semper crescis
aut decrescis;
vita detestabilis
nunc obdurat
et tunc curat
ludo mentis aciem,
egestatem,
potestatem
dissolvit ut glaciem.

Sors immanis
et inanis,
rota tu volubilis,
status malus,
vana salus
semper dissolubilis,
obumbrata
et velata
michi quoque niteris;
nunc per ludum
dorsum nudum
fero tui sceleris.

Sors salutis
et virtutis
michi nunc contraria,
est affectus
et defectus
semper in angaria.
Hac in hora
sine mora
corde pulsum tangite;
quod per sortem
sternit fortem,
mecum omnes plangite!

Grr, Goons.

In thread related news, one might remember that we were also on the forefront of the media push to get Technetium nerfed, despite being the game's largest holder of said moons at the time.

it's almost like we argue from a position of objective game balance instead of for what lines our pockets.

Of course, you had made a bundle off them, then used that bundle to gain dominance of all the R64's instead when Tech got nerfed, giving you even greater dominance over EVE & the Tech 2 markets resource supply.
So the 'Tech' nerf argument really isn't a strong argument since it getting Nerfed actually benefited the CFC.

Of course, you had made a bundle off them, then used that bundle to gain dominance of all the R64's instead when Tech got nerfed, giving you even greater dominance over EVE & the Tech 2 markets resource supply.
So the 'Tech' nerf argument really isn't a strong argument since it getting Nerfed actually benefited the CFC.

Long story short we have a history of pushing to balence things.

Think of it this way. The only reason most of said T2 BPOs exist is because they were gifted to BOB/IT by their pocket dev.

wrong.

Think of it this way. The only reason most of said T2 BPOs exist is because they were gifted to BOB/IT by their pocket dev.

super wrong.

in a logical approach:
simply removing something is not a problem/requires time to do, so if that or something like that would be the plan it would have been done 10 years ago when most of the T2 BPO's weren't bought but won. while talking about that topic, he might had just thoughts about a nerf that compensates the upcoming T2 BPO boost in the end. making T2 BPO's meaningless/removing has not even been hinted as far I read the quotes. Let's see when it's all on youtube.

Because of course BOB/IT didnt get T2 BPOs magically dropped into their hangers. It didnt get a dev fired or spawn the internal affairs division to prevent something like that happening again.

The income level for them is inbalanced when comepared to ...

T2 BPOs will probably get nerfed/removed at some point

So we didnt completely switch to a drone assist doctrine to prove how insanely overpowered it was? Could have fooled me.

It is obvious that their main intention is to scare the wider public into dumping their t2 bpos and buying up at dirt cheap prices while knowing that the removal of t2 bpos will likely never happen.
Thoughts?

Grr, Goons.

The R64 revenue is nothing compared to what Tech was in its heyday

Just came back to eve for the summer changes. Was watching the streams and reading reports. Before starting, I am one of the original T2 BPO owners in 2003 but have since sold them over the years and now retired with most of my time in pvp

Found one that really stood out: http://themittani.com/news/fanfest-industry-panel-discussion

Apparently there was nothing worth noting by any CCP representative regarding t2 bpos in the stream but this site which is written by a Goon has been unusually enthusiastic in reporting about it and phrasing it in such a way that it will be removed soon. Their CSM representative was also looking forward to it very much

While looking through the forums, I noticed several characters posting with the intention of destabilizing T2 BPO prices on every T2 BPO thread. Examples:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342071&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342035&find=unread

Most of which can be traced to a Goon Main or used in a Goon scam before.

I was surprised as obviously the biggest losers in this T2 BPO removal would be Goons as it is no surprise that they hold some of the largest amounts of t2 bpos in existence. However, they seem extremely supportive of the removal BUT there has been no liquadation of t2 bpos done by Goons

It is obvious that their main intention is to scare the wider public into dumping their t2 bpos and buying up at dirt cheap prices while knowing that the removal of t2 bpos will likely never happen.

Thoughts?

I would be glad to see them gone. That being said, if goons are celebrating it, then it's likely they already quietly got rid of theirs. Or the goons who are celebrating it, are not the ones that actually own the prints.

It is obvious that their main intention is to scare the wider public into dumping their t2 bpos

GRR BOB

Of course, you had made a bundle off them, then used that bundle to gain dominance of all the R64's instead when Tech got nerfed, giving you even greater dominance over EVE & the Tech 2 markets resource supply.
So the 'Tech' nerf argument really isn't a strong argument since it getting Nerfed actually benefited the CFC.

Having spoke about this in corp recently with the guy who runs our T2 BPO library (pretty sure the largest single collection ingame) we were thinking of ways which CCP could possibly phase them out of the game in a fair way for all sides, the best solution we could come up with was replacing them all with X number BPC runs.

Thing is CCP has been whispering of changing T2 BPOs yearly since the lottery inception and the outcries of pubbies who started later than 04 about how it was unfair they were late to the party, and year after year there have been no changes (bar the introduction of invention, which was sorely needed I may add), so I wouldnt hold your breath and certainly wouldnt auction anything on maybes.

All in all well have to wait for solid announcements, and keep watching people tearing up.

Having spoke about this in corp recently with the guy who runs our T2 BPO library (pretty sure the largest single collection ingame) we were thinking of ways which CCP could possibly phase them out of the game in a fair way for all sides, the best solution we could come up with was replacing them all with X number BPC runs.

If they really wanted to remove them, they could probably just start buying them at market value using confiscated ISK, slowly and secretly, over a few years. Done slowly enough, the inclusion of that ISK in the economy would probably be negligible (and since it's confiscated ISK, it was already a part of the economy to begin with - it was just artificially removed), and purchasing them at market value eliminates any butthurt over their removal.

seems otti is one of the very few who is able to see that debate from both sides which i appreciate.

3) going into personal hangars of only a certain group of ppl is something CCP should never do imho, at least not in this scale(number of ppl, and value in isk) as everyone who is playing eve to grind might think "w/e im grinding for, CCP will take it away if only enough ppl will cry about it"

If they really wanted to remove them, they could probably just start buying them at market value using confiscated ISK, slowly and secretly, over a few years. Done slowly enough, the inclusion of that ISK in the economy would probably be negligible (and since it's confiscated ISK, it was already a part of the economy to begin with - it was just artificially removed), and purchasing them at market value eliminates any butthurt over their removal.

You wouldn't get the ones that aren't looking to sell at any price, but it's not a race, and they're not doing any actual harm beyond hitting a handful of crybaby have-nots in the feelings.

At fanfest they said they're not going to give tech 2 BPO owners any isk for the BPO when they do the change of removing them. They said if you have one when the change happens you can cry all you want, but your not getting any isk for them from CCP.

Just came back to eve for the summer changes. Was watching the streams and reading reports. Before starting, I am one of the original T2 BPO owners in 2003 but have since sold them over the years and now retired with most of my time in pvp

Found one that really stood out: http://themittani.com/news/fanfest-industry-panel-discussion

Apparently there was nothing worth noting by any CCP representative regarding t2 bpos in the stream but this site which is written by a Goon has been unusually enthusiastic in reporting about it and phrasing it in such a way that it will be removed soon. Their CSM representative was also looking forward to it very much

While looking through the forums, I noticed several characters posting with the intention of destabilizing T2 BPO prices on every T2 BPO thread. Examples:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342071&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342035&find=unread

Most of which can be traced to a Goon Main or used in a Goon scam before.

I was surprised as obviously the biggest losers in this T2 BPO removal would be Goons as it is no surprise that they hold some of the largest amounts of t2 bpos in existence. However, they seem extremely supportive of the removal BUT there has been no liquadation of t2 bpos done by Goons

It is obvious that their main intention is to scare the wider public into dumping their t2 bpos and buying up at dirt cheap prices while knowing that the removal of t2 bpos will likely never happen.

Thoughts?

If they really wanted to remove them, they could probably just start buying them at market value using confiscated ISK, slowly and secretly, over a few years. Done slowly enough, the inclusion of that ISK in the economy would probably be negligible (and since it's confiscated ISK, it was already a part of the economy to begin with - it was just artificially removed), and purchasing them at market value eliminates any butthurt over their removal.

You wouldn't get the ones that aren't looking to sell at any price, but it's not a race, and they're not doing any actual harm beyond hitting a handful of crybaby have-nots in the feelings.

They'd be better off just removing them completely.

It would only make like 10 people quit, so who cares?.

Realistically though, they are likely just to become non-functional, so they are for collections only. That way people dumb enough to have held onto them can say "look at the items I've got" while the actual industry system plods on with realistic changes able to be made to the invention system without worrying about the effects on T2 BPOs.

That way people dumb enough to have held onto them can say "look at the items I've got"

any strong argument why they should do that?

why do you care?

Wow, very qualified comment and such profound arguments. Seems you are pretty butthurt that 10 people seem to have t2 bpos and you don't. :D

That made me laugh. How old are you? 12? Envy is strong in this one.

Reading this thread you might almost think that forming power bases by successful gameplay (both combat and meta), and making isk from the game mechanics was something unintended by the game design.

Wow, very qualified comment and such profound arguments. Seems you are pretty butthurt that 10 people seem to have t2 bpos and you don't. :D

here you all go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTTyMhSKY9E

skip to 22:20

"i think we've been fairly consistently, publically of the opinion that we need to do something with t2 bpos for some time, I hope that's being taken into account in market prices..."

"...that value is going to go down in the future..."

good luck with the "this is all just a goonie lie" thing

here you all go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTTyMhSKY9E

skip to 22:20

"i think we've been fairly consistently, publically of the opinion that we need to do something with t2 bpos for some time, I hope that's being taken into account in market prices..."

"...that value is going to go down in the future..."

good luck with the "this is all just a goonie lie" thing

c&p'ing this thousand times doenst make it better (especially when using it as argument to sell for cheap on every T2 BPO sale thread)

oh and how does "value will go down" and "we won't take them away, and screw you" make u think that they will be removed? -value of something not existent can't go down IRRC

welcome to 5 days ago btw.

oh and how does "value will go down" and "we won't take them away, and screw you" make u think that they will be removed? -value of something not existent can't go down IRRC

"Part of their problem is their extreme value and that value is going to go down(... RIGHT, BEFORE WE REMOVE THEM ALL, LMAO, OWNED". And yes, the value of an object that does exist that will not exist in the future can go down, in fact it will got to zero. .

yea im sure that's exactly what he wanted to say :D

anyway, title plus the flood of low-ball offers in sell orders says it all

The point is that you stated that the value of something being removed can't go down, which is clearly incorrect.

-value of something not existent can't go down IIRC

funny you mentioned my (relativly obvious) missquoting.

ALL I SAID IS
saying that to point out that it's value is going down right before it's getting removed just makes no sense at all as it's the most obvious thing in the world

lol, well that quote does not say what you seem to think it says, those are 2 totally separate statements.

Having T2 BPO's in game is like having apartheid form the "haves"against the rest of the community.

*rage filled sperg*

The whole issue i have with the T2 BPO stuff is that some people got lucky in the past and that they apparenty have received and "ISK printer", which makes manufacturing T2 stuff easier and more profitable than the normal way of invention + BPC generation.

Amusingly they've already planned a nerf by slowing down their research times and removing negative ME from invention, so they will take even longer to become profitable.

Can you point me to the source for the removal of negative ME? In the dev blog I only see this line that applies:

"For transitioning negative ME blueprints, we're just multiplying by 10, while for negative TE we're subtracting 1 and multiplying by 20, which keeps both values roughly the same before and after for the reasons outlined above."

I cant seem to find anything that says negative ME is being removed. I honestly could have missed it with all 6 blogs having so much information.

We are currently of a mind to shift invented BPCs so they have positive (or at worst 0) ME and TE figures. This a) prevents the removal of extra materials giving invention an extra-hard kick, and in particular b) prevents every invented T2 item from requiring two of the relevant T1 items (due to always rounding up materials). This will probably put all invented BPCs in the 1-5% ME/2-10% TE range, with decryptors adjusted to match. We may adjust T2 build costs upwards across the board to put the net T2 resource usage roughly where it is currently, so we don't end up nerfing the demand for T2 components. (This obviously also serves to close the gap somewhat between invention and T2 BPOs; this is not a goal here but it's an acceptable side-effect.)

We are going to unify ME and TE per-level research times on all blueprints. Currently it looks like most T2 and capital BPOs have different TE and ME times. We're planning on kicking T2 BPO times up to the higher of the two values, and capital ones down to the lower of the two.

lol

.

Uuuuhuhuhu. Did I hit a sore point?

We are currently of a mind to shift invented BPCs so they have positive (or at worst 0) ME and TE figures. This a) prevents the removal of extra materials giving invention an extra-hard kick, and in particular b) prevents every invented T2 item from requiring two of the relevant T1 items (due to always rounding up materials). This will probably put all invented BPCs in the 1-5% ME/2-10% TE range, with decryptors adjusted to match. We may adjust T2 build costs upwards across the board to put the net T2 resource usage roughly where it is currently, so we don't end up nerfing the demand for T2 components. (This obviously also serves to close the gap somewhat between invention and T2 BPOs; this is not a goal here but it's an acceptable side-effect.)

One dev stating something like that to stop rumours means absolutely nothing. .

actually it means quite a lot what A Dev says(who reprents CCP, not his opinion in this case) . at least more than what 1000 ppl like you think/guess/mumble

This is nothing more than a rumor with no basis of fact. Hope that's enough of a confirmation for you guys. :)

As I've said to other replies, feel free to call me out on this, but out of respect for those who have been let go in Atlanta, and their families, I wasn't prepared to let rumors build over the weekend before we could speak to people, and whoever was posting information was wholly irresponsible and completely wrong in doing so.

There's a time, a place, and a proper procedure for doing stuff like this, and that involves not being disrespectful and rumor mongering.

actually it means quite a lot what A Dev says(who reprents CCP, not his opinion in this case) . at least more than what 1000 ppl like you think/guess/mumble

What Nex said.

Also, if you don't believe it, then please, buy all of the T2 BPOs you can. Your bad investments are not an issue for me. But when they get nerfed into non-existence, you damn well better not be back here crying about it.

Basically when CCP dev with beer in his hand on fan fest says something you like to hear about T2 BPO, if you drag it out of context, then that is "the truth" and some individuals make news items and fill blogs with that "truth" of sky falling for T2 BPOs. But if CCP dev writes on forum something to explain the context (and that you got it wrong) and says something you don't like to hear then we should take his words with grain of salt and/or he is lying. Facepalm.

lol, he didn't have a beer in his hand, he was in the industry panel, specifically answering a question about T2 BPOs. Yes, I take more from what he says that a dev who is stopping rumours on the forum with a snippet of text. Perhaps if he made an announcement post it would hold more power.

And the removal of T2 BPOs makes sense. They are an old mechanic which is no longer used and they make it difficult to work with invention mechanics as they have to watch how it affects T2 BPOs. So the options are separate them or remove them. Well separation was suggested in the panel and they outright stated that they would not be doing that. They also explicity stated that T2 BPO value would be goign down, and stated that there would be a "transitional plan" rather than just taking them away and saying "screw you". You can go watch this yourself if you want and make your own conclusions. But all of that leads me to believe their time is limited, and with them taking years to become profitable that's something people will want to consider sooner rather than later.

But honestly, if you don't want to believe it and you want to bury your head in the sand, then go right ahead. I don't actually care where you invest your isk, but if they remove them and you lose billions, then don't come crying on these forums about how mean it is, since you were given adequate warning.

Ah, then I guess THANK YOU guys and specially Goons for so many warnings not to invest in T2BPO. Usually people from corps most active through these T2 BPO threads are not that helpful regarding other things but people change and I'm glad you are giving back to community. Let me know when you start doubling my ISK.

Why the heck you dare to discuss with lucas? Don't you know he's always right?

Certainly not always, but I tend to post when I'm sure of something. Besides, I could be wrong here, they might never do anything, right? So go invest in T2 BPOs.

What one dev says doesn't mean anything at all. I remember CCP Falcon commenting on reddit about the rumor of World of Darkness being canned and him saying:

Your bad investments are not an issue for me. But when they get nerfed into non-existence, you damn well better not be back here crying about it.

eh?
you sure about what? the removal? really? even after CCP stated in the easiest and clearest words they would ever do that they won't do that

but yea reading between all these lines I know you have found the truth about their real intentions.

I mean right now the water is up to your chest and you didnt understand that the ship is lost.

right, so what one DEV said in the offcial Forums... even with the very clear words (rare for CCP) "An FYI to cease the rumor mongering that is happening in this (and other) threads:" Means absolutely nothing because it already happened once that a another CCP dev said on a external and unrelated forum and changed his mind a week later.

So when they are playing oposite day all the time they might even boost all T2 BPO's and nerf invention to the ground, did a DEV ever controverted it? probably true then.

pretty harsh to call something a bad investment that cost me about 10% of what it's worth now and has prolly made 500% profit of the invested isk by now

I smell a bullshitter.

Yeah. Take a shower plz lukas

OK, so explain exactly why CCP Eterne, who is the only person to state that T2 BPOs would not be removed (which itself is counter to what was said in the industry panel).

f I'm the one here talking BS, why did the "we have no plans" post get changes to say "no immediate plans"?.

I find it funny that someone that thinks they have such a good investment though would have no idea what their actual profit is and would just guess at percentages. I smell a bullshitter.

lol... why don't you explain exactly how it counters anything that has been said on the industry panel? nobody said anything baout a removal and that's exactly what eterne pointed out. It's only your opinion that they hinted it and you simply don't want to understand that even after a offical confirmation.

really is that all you got, now? We can't see what he has edited but both versions mean pretty much the same thing. And as the sentence stands right now, they've made the most clear statement about a not coming removal.

judging by your rage against us T2 BPO owners you can't have made too much profit yet so I'll let that pass. the profit u've made in 8 years is quite hard to put in numbers and totally unrelated for this discussion....but yea totally a sign that i'm the bullshitter.

Tech2 bpo's are not the problem, users are.

If CCP changes waste on Invention from 10% to 0%, people will just change their price and then moan that tech2 bpo holders are holding them back.

Mine have been sitting idle now for over 12 months (about 19 I think) and the world has not changed. My 19 AuroraS bpo's are still not worth using, My hawks still sell like crap, 50mm plate II's are not popular, large cap bat II's are laughable...

But I guess it's all my (and the other owners) fault for those horrible markets.

So you made a bad investment. Nobody is saying anything is your fault, and theres no blame being cast about. The idea of removing T2 BPOs is not a personal crusade against the owners, it's simply the way forward. Invention is the new mechanic for T2 production, and the BPOs are going to become redundant at some point.

Yawnnnn...

I have some tech2 bpo's that have NEVER seen a profit since the day Invention rolled out.

I couldn't care less even tho I keep posting the same trash over and over again...

Fact != what you wish somebody wanted to say
Profit margin of a product != total profit of over 100 prints in 7 years

I couldn't say anything that I havent said before and since I don't feel repeating myself over and over again => hf/gl with ur ragecrusade

So you made a bad investment. Nobody is saying anything is your fault, and theres no blame being cast about. The idea of removing T2 BPOs is not a personal crusade against the owners, it's simply the way forward. Invention is the new mechanic for T2 production, and the BPOs are going to become redundant at some point.

There is nothing particularly 'new' about invention, it's closing in on a decade itself. Moreover, whole rounds of T2 BPOs were seeded after invention debuted, so it's not like there was a clean break when it came out. it's worth pointing out that Invention was certainly not created to be the 'normal' way of T2 production, it was created to be a deliberately finicky and annoying system to curb the power of cartels and bring T2 prices down.

it's a testament to CCP's (no offense CCP) negligence of industry (until now of course) that the primary means of T2 production is so annoying, click intensive, and inefficient. It's right up there with not adjusting any slot counts for population growth, though this won't be a problem anymore, obv.

Anyway, just some T2 food for thought. People should be mad at the fact that they can't get T2 BPOs of their own from the game, and that CCP never fully gave invention the tools/systems it should have had to be the primary means of T2 production, not mad at T2 BPO holders.

E: 'Simply the way forward' is a good bumper sticker quote but it has no place in a debate with the vast economic stakes of T2 production.

Removing T2bpos is the most idiotic idea ever. But the mads and poors will never understand that.

Hmm, Lucas, I am not convinced yet. Will T2 BPOs be removed? What do you say? (Don't pay attention to devs' statements)

Again, we're not "mad" at anyone. And if we wanted T2 BPOs, the sell orders forum always has them up for sale. T2 ownership isn't an exclusive club, its pretty easy to go and buy something that someone else has for sale. The only reason T2 owners get any jip is because they are so entitled. A single mention of nerf to their BPOs and they start shrieking about how everyone's jealous. It's quite pathetic really. And it changes nothing. T2 BPOs are a defunct mechanic, a redundant idea. Do you really think CCP should keep in old mechanics, crippling their ability to freely work with the new(er) mechanic, just because some people will freak out if their precious items are nerfed?

Of course it does. Things get nerfed when the situations around them change. In this instance, invention is being iterated and to do that effectively, T2 BPOs will need to go. The way forward is invention, the redundant system is T2 BPOs. Besides, T2 BPO holders like to tell everybody how little their BPOs affect the T2 production economics, so removing them will have a minimal impact.

You're putting words in my mouth, I fully support CCP bringing T2 BPOs in line with invention, or vice versa. All I am trying to provide is historical context, and point out that there are benefits to having T2 BPOs continue in some respects. Such as continuous supply keeping prices reasonable, and giving manufacturers a solo endgame. I personally think BPOs should be nerfed to the point where the only benefit they offer over invention is less clicks, and inventors have a (extremely small though compounded with repeated efforts) chance to get them though their normal invention process. Merely removing T2 BPOs entirely would be a waste of what could be a more rewarding system for inventors.

Nah, not buying it. There's nothing 'redundant' about T2 BPOs, the argument you should be making is that they cause disruption in potential markets for invention. Should that aspect be reduced? Yeah probably, though you're going to have a hard time finding people to make certain items without BPO influence.