So, our wh mapper registers ship/npc kills in wormholes and displays this in a nice graph. Much like tripwire does. We use this information to see when people have done sites. Looks like they're gonna remove this info (for wspace) from the API.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4556962#post4556962

I'm not sure if the new CSM is in business yet, if they are, Corbexx, help!

This basically makes farming sleepers risk free against logofftraps.

After this, everyone will expo everywhere all the time. You roll the static, catch farmers. No hassle with logofftraps. Combine this with the anom change spawning, and you can catch a capfleet every day! Thanks CCP!

Ok I'm attually chatting to Fox Four right now.

But any posts here please be constructive and not panic mode.

I fully support removing it.
Who gives a crap? the info is an hour old anyway, it's functionally useless. it doesnt help you catch people, it just tells you that you missed the people that were in a system an hour ago.
if you want to scout someone, use your eyes.

Its quite entertaining hearing all of these "big" wormhole alliances complaining about this change. I for one welcome it as it gives a new challenge to overcome (which is what wormholes are famous for). You actually have to put in some effort to gather information now rather than it being handed to you via API.

So smug :D

Fully support this change. People should get off their asses and do some old fashion Hunting!

I love to see how the farmers step up to this change. It will only escalte things. No more log off traps? No problem! How about good old fashion evictions instead?

I fully support removing it.
Who gives a crap? the info is an hour old anyway, it's functionally useless. it doesnt help you catch people, it just tells you that you missed the people that were in a system an hour ago.
if you want to scout someone, use your eyes.

I fully support removing it.
Who gives a crap? the info is an hour old anyway, it's functionally useless. it doesnt help you catch people, it just tells you that you missed the people that were in a system an hour ago.
if you want to scout someone, use your eyes.

If they removed it but sigs update only with probes it'd be nice. As it stands, just a buff to farming

So no logoff traps unless you have been watching them at least a week, no catching people in a sites thanks to the immidiate sig spawn so what is left of targets?
Rolling is out since 99% warps to safety when they see a new sig.
Catching people has become a lot less likely.
Wormhole space is becoming more safe then high sec if this continues.... .
The only thing left to do is evictions... .
And poshbashing is soooo much fun... .

Im not sure how many people have participated in Logoffs but i can personally tell you that they are some of the funnest things i have ever done in Eve.

Says the guy that has left WH space to go to nullsec with its abundance of AFK intel, please tell us how we should work harder for pvp wise one.

call me crazy but I actually prefer challenging kills.

Says the guy that has left WH space to go to nullsec with its abundance of AFK intel, please tell us how we should work harder for pvp wise one.

Grow a set of balls

Hoover Inc.
Pandemic Legion

How sad have wormholes become when the "only way to get content" is to rely on 100% meta-game tactics that are dependent on 3rd party tools. And by content these people mean ganking PVErs.

I love how the bears hide in the free intel speech to improve their isk heaven even further.
We are going to go from hunter paradise to squishy mushy brar paradise. So sad that there are no grays here.

Copy pasted my post from this topic here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342427

"I am dumbfounded by this whole topic. It seems to me that the majority of posters here are neglecting the primary reason people pvp in WH space. Its not because its made easy by 3rd party tools utilizing api data that is not available in game. It's the pure joy of the hunt. That moment when two WH entities just happen to come across each other, mount up their forces and meet in glorious battle on the field.

Personally this data will have no effect on the way I live and explore in WH space. And with what I see being posted here, I hope it does go away to make 'carebears' more comfortable coming into WH space giving rage rollers a higher chance at more targets.

It's a game. Adapt or quit, it's really that simple."

It makes scene to remove the API kills but at them same time, this doesn't improve gameplay.

But this change combined with instant sigs makes farming really safe.

This is pretty much it. Wormhole space is the unknown.

But this change combined with instant sigs makes farming really safe.

Ok so farmers will be happy. Non farmers aren't.

The next problem is the follow on effect, more farming will properly lead to nano's dropping in price. This will then hit the smaller groups in c1 to c4 space hard making there income less (which to me is already to low anyway).

It's the follow on effect I'm pretty worried about as this could potentially effect the whole of wh space in a bad way,. It's also something I think people are forgetting about.

I really need to get more info.

what ever happened to delaying the K16s spawns from the automatic refresh? Fozzie said it was done, and could be implemented in Kronos...havent heard of it since.

To clarify im referring to on the k162 not showing up on discovery, forcing you to probe for new sigs. ( as it should be)

The idea of leaving scouts in system for days maybe even weeks on end for less than a 1% chance per wormhole of finding any activity is frankly stupid.

Hyperbole, compared to this? :D



Anyway, my honest opinion is that the bloobloo reaction is a real indicator of an undesirable situation, which is lack of PVP activity in wormhole space. People feel they need to resort to logoffski and 3rd party tools based on unintended access to data to get pew. Note that the reason for this fix is not pampering cuddlybears, but fixing an oversight in game design, a bug- just like wh jump data, it's simply against the nature or wormhole space which has no gates or CONCORD presence.

Maybe better to discuss other changes, than crying after this clutch, gimmick?

I personally don't give a flying **** whether this bug fix makes farming safer or farmer ganking harder, I'm more concerned of not seeing many, or as it often is these days, any active pilots in our chain. I'd love to meet more gangs, and especially I'd love to have something to fight over. Some new structure in the upcoming new POSes? More varied geography? More interesting PVE to make people more active?

How to get more guys living in w-space?

You are right, and this is the reason why I don't want kill api data removed. CCP will never get around to fixing WH space with regard to player interaction in any meaningful way, and even if they do, chances are they will just break it completely considering the lack of forethought they have about any changes to w-space (see this change and the delayed sig change).

Maybe it's not realistic, but right now kill api data is nessecary for wspace.

I am for this change 100%, but not for the farming aspect rather the hunter aspect. Most of you guys don't like this because how easy it makes to farm cap escalation sites correct? Just wondering would you bigger pvp groups / wh entities be happy with this change if there was a significant change to farming/being safe inside a wormhole?

People claim that you should have to scout for your intel, but let me tell you about how sitting in a wormhole for 48 hours, and then scanning a way out (since your static has collapsed) and then flying 50 jumps across the universe is a colossal waste of time and nobody wants to do this. This is not PVP. It's not even PVE. It's a waste of time.

This is why I oppose the change. It simply makes players waste more of there time for other player interaction.

wait, so you want me to take my scout, run through as many wormholes as i can adding them to my mapper tool of choice, then sit back and wait and hour, probably go make coffee talk BS on TS, and wait till i see the npc counter rise.
All while having a fleet on standby just waiting to see someone make a move so that we can get in there and kill.
Thats my attitude, and the problem with people who are opposed to these changes imo.

wait, so you want me to take my scout, run through as many wormholes as i can adding them to my mapper tool of choice, then sit back and wait and hour, probably go make coffee talk BS on TS, and wait till i see the npc counter rise.
All while having a fleet on standby just waiting to see someone make a move so that we can get in there and kill.
Thats my attitude, and the problem with people who are opposed to these changes imo.

IMO it should work like this.

Scan and scout wormholes adding them to my mapper, and if i roll into a hole and i see no activity move on, if i see sites being run or holes being rolled or whatever, then i call my backup in. perhaps ill scout the wh and the corp and decide to log off in that hole for another day, who knows.

Now im sure for ye c5/c6 pro pvp corps who only wanna pvp all the time (and im not talking about your corp, just the leet pvp corps in general), itll mean ye have to work harder for your ganks, or not being able to tell when a corp is running sites, have to have more scouts active, have to have more people willing to go scout and find content that will create a lot more downtime between fights.

But i think what ccp is getting at here, is that ye should have to go actively find your content and hunt for your targets, blitzing through whs, then posing up waiting for someone else to run sites so you can see it, and bring your targets in is not finding content. come on its just lazy.

whatever happened to a good old bait ship, or just patience..

AR

You are right, and this is the reason why I don't want kill api data removed. CCP will never get around to fixing WH space with regard to player interaction in any meaningful way, and even if they do, chances are they will just break it completely considering the lack of forethought they have about any changes to w-space (see this change and the delayed sig change).

Maybe it's not realistic, but right now kill api data is nessecary for wspace.

Now im sure for ye c5/c6 pro pvp corps who only wanna pvp all the time (and im not talking about your corp, just the leet pvp corps in general), itll mean ye have to work harder for your ganks, or not being able to tell when a corp is running sites, have to have more scouts active, have to have more people willing to go scout and find content that will create a lot more downtime between fights.

blitzing through whs, then posing up waiting for someone else to run sites so you can see it, and bring your targets in is not finding content. come on its just lazy.

Yes as long as more player interaction (read: PVP) is the result of changes, I am for those changes. The fact is that the removal of the npc kill data is going to do the opposite.

People claim that you should have to scout for your intel, but let me tell you about how sitting in a wormhole for 48 hours, and then scanning a way out (since your static has collapsed) and then flying 50 jumps across the universe is a colossal waste of time and nobody wants to do this. This is not PVP. It's not even PVE. It's a waste of time.

This is why I oppose the change. It simply makes players waste more of there time for other player interaction.

know this because nobody runs C5 sites without closing their static.

This is actively finding your content. Removing the NPC kills just means you have to stick an alt in EVREY SINGLE SYSTEM instead of just a select few.

Lol you have no idea what you're talking about. How do I know this? I know this because nobody runs C5 sites without closing their static. What you just talked about is not how NPC kills are used, ever, stop being dumb. NPC kills are used to guage whether or not a system is active. So you scout your chain, look at the systems, check which systems have had recent activity, and then go stick a character in those holes and watch them yourself.

This is actively finding your content. Removing the NPC kills just means you have to stick an alt in EVREY SINGLE SYSTEM instead of just a select few.

Maybe it's just a ploy to make us buy more accounts eh?

First not true I was silently watching a group do cap escalations in their C5 a few days back (it was my first sighting of that it was pretty cool to see:-))

Second, why do you feel you HAVE to stick an alt in every single wormhole system in your chain? I don't understand why you feel you need to have intel on the full chain, you live inside a wormhole surely you can accept that you could have to actually go there to find out any new activity, i.e. patrol? Saying that you will pretty much be forced to put an alt in every system is the weirdest way of thinking in this, you make this sound like null and intel channels.

Like I said I understand all your guys concern about farming if that really is an issue, but the amount of spewed crap that gets thrown around regarding scouting, or the ONLY way to identify targets is NPC data and other BS makes me want to throw up.

You never actually went hunting, right?

Lol you have no idea what you're talking about. How do I know this? I know this because nobody runs C5 sites without closing their static. What you just talked about is not how NPC kills are used, ever, stop being dumb. NPC kills are used to guage whether or not a system is active. So you scout your chain, look at the systems, check which systems have had recent activity, and then go stick a character in those holes and watch them yourself.

This is actively finding your content. Removing the NPC kills just means you have to stick an alt in EVREY SINGLE SYSTEM instead of just a select few.

Maybe it's just a ploy to make us buy more accounts eh?

The problem is that the npc kills are the only method currently of identifying a `maybe` target.. I'm saying `maybe` target, because even with the npc data we currently have, we still need to get a scout in there and actively monitor to confirm the intel and gauge what and how many ships they have and all that to determine what we need to seed in.





That is not how it works at all. Instead of calling people lazy, maybe try some yourself instead, then post again?
The npc data is one hour old when you get it, not good for live monitoring of the wh-chain.

It does when you say that they MASS CRIT THE HOLE!

Edit: Lets break this down a bit. Unleg iss you are Jack, scanning ists a very time consuming activity. Very time consuming.
Do you think that we are going to spend time on a time consumin, g activity in an empty chain waiting for something to happen?
We roll it away and we start anew.

Sorry what does? Me watching cap escalations from a corp who mass crit their connecting hole somehow means Angsty is correct in saying the way to know if a system is active is via NPC data? If that's what you meant it clearly doesn't.

About the scanning, hey we knew we had to do a lot of scanning coming into them. Are you saying that because scanning is a time consuming activity you don't like to participate? I don't see how these points are related to the NPC kills data that is being fed to mappers, the only somewhat valid argument that I can see that is being presented is that cap escalations are too safe to farm, and will be more safe to farm with this change. All the others seem to come down to laziness, or a lack of people living inside wormholes (while I strongly believe that this change will get more people inside since they don't have to be scared that other competent corps can see their activity).

If you don't want to wait for something to happen in an empty chain, then you can indeed try and spawn a new chain, kill some sleepers do some PI, try and hunt some guy who just logged on in the WH next door I don't know, why are people waiting for something to happen full stop I'll never know, anyhow I don't see how this is related to the NPC data change either, again about the scouting..

So you know they are running sites after you were connected to them. Then you just wait until they are in siege and then light a cyno...
Also you stupid russians and other PvPers, why don-¦t you just log out people before they start running sites? Without any indication if they will ever do and in what timezone? Just activly scout the target for a week before you connect to it, it-¦s not that hard.
There are only a few C6 and even less c5s.
It is already so easy to find pvp in a wormhole, so it will not hurt to loose the only indicator if and at what times residents are active. And the more farmers the better, since they provide so much content by logging out every time a new sig shows up.
Those 15 man corps running escalations every other day for 1-2 hours are putting so many ISK at risk they deserve every bit of protection and barely make enough to Plex once in a while. You see how poor they are if you siege their towers. No guns, little stront and not even spare capitals or god forbid T3s.
While you lazy pvpers don-¦t even know how to scout properly and just sit there waiting for your map, that was automaticly done, to start blinking.

Then you just wait until they are in siege and then light a cyno...

There are only a few C6 and even less c5s.

Those 15 man corps running escalations every other day for 1-2 hours are putting so many ISK at risk they deserve every bit of protection and barely make enough to Plex once in a while.

You see how poor they are if you siege their towers. No guns, little stront and not even spare capitals or god forbid T3s
While you lazy pvpers don-¦t even know how to scout properly and just sit there waiting for your map, that was automaticly done, to start blinking.

So you know they are running sites after you were connected to them. Then you just wait until they are in siege and then light a cyno...
Also you stupid russians and other PvPers, why don-¦t you just log out people before they start running sites? Without any indication if they will ever do and in what timezone? Just activly scout the target for a week before you connect to it, it-¦s not that hard.
There are only a few C6 and even less c5s.
It is already so easy to find pvp in a wormhole, so it will not hurt to loose the only indicator if and at what times residents are active. And the more farmers the better, since they provide so much content by logging out every time a new sig shows up.
Those 15 man corps running escalations every other day for 1-2 hours are putting so many ISK at risk they deserve every bit of protection and barely make enough to Plex once in a while. You see how poor they are if you siege their towers. No guns, little stront and not even spare capitals or god forbid T3s.
While you lazy pvpers don-¦t even know how to scout properly and just sit there waiting for your map, that was automaticly done, to start blinking.

Wow, some of you obviously spent too much time in close proximity of people with contagious stupidity.
So let me get my sarcasmsign and hit you over the head with it. I wrote literaly the opposite of reality and you didn-¦t get it?
Let-¦s try again: I never scouted a wormhole, not even about half a dozen times with viperfleet...

Wow, some of you obviously spent too much time in close proximity of people with contagious stupidity.