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Ren Coursa
Rapid Withdrawal
14
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Posted - 2014.05.15 11:43:00 -
[31] - Quote
Bob Maths wrote:That's a pretty cool idea. What would the ships look like?
My take would be something like the Rorqual, it looks like a construction site. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
482
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 13:23:00 -
[32] - Quote
Ren Coursa wrote:[quote=Bob Maths]... it looks like a construction site.
You mean it should be a minmatar ship?
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4230
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 13:35:00 -
[33] - Quote
Liafcipe9000 wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:I would find it interesting if the ship had a fleet operating mode, where it would enter a form of siege / bastion mode that made it untargetable so it would be such an epic troll because it would just sit between thousands of ships going "f**k you all, yoloswag420" FTFY. Hilarity ensues.
Ok, I get that you did not understand the point, much less the mechanism. All you understood was that targeting would swap over to other ships, and assumed random chaos since the details were confusing.
NO.
The ship itself could ONLY be in this mode to transfer, if it was bastioned, meaning it could not simply leave when unexpected things happened.
The ONLY ships capable of being targeted by this effect would also need to be inside the targeting range of the attacking ship. For those not grasping the meaning, that means the ships defending it would need to be almost on top of this ship.
Frigates with well know short range, as well as ships with short ranges for other reasons, could bypass this if the defending ships were not close enough. That means simply being 20KM distant is going to be more than enough in many cases, to avoid the effect entirely. Players adapt, and this mechanic would require clever play on both sides.
And by clever play, that means someone planning on the possibility of needing to counter this type of defense, just like we already plan around countering and needing points, and ECM counters. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked... |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4230
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 13:42:00 -
[34] - Quote
Auduin Samson wrote:I don't know, the idea of transferring locks to other ships in the fleet sounds like a recipe for disaster. If everyone is focusing that ship, reps would be on it. If all of those locks got set to other ships which may or may not be able to handle the aggro would make the logi's job a nightmare. Not to mention nobody would want to fly in a fleet when the obvious loot pinata will end up costing their ship because of it's derpy aggro management. It would actually be fairly predictable, as only the ships closest to it by intent would likely be affected.
(Ships with long range attacking would adapt by trying to remove 'obstacles', and groups wanting to focus on the engineer boat would send in short range blaster boats to minimize this defense ability)
Long story short, the engineer ship is only truly vulnerable when it's fleet buddies are gone from range. Your opponents can't cherry pick it from your group if you play smart. (as opposed to previous where off grid boosting and support was such a wonderful idea) Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked... |
Auduin Samson
Do not disturb Sanctuary Pact
188
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 13:50:00 -
[35] - Quote
Still sounds like a way too powerful ability that is completely out of the ship's intended role... It would be effectively indistructable until the entire fleet is dead, require careful maneuvering of other pilots to prevent being insta-killed by a mechanism that they have no control over, and still be a nightmare for any FC. When trying to coordinate targets and maneuvers, the last thing the FC should have to worry about is if anyone gets too close to one of their own ships WHILE carrying out said maneuvers. Not bumping a bridge titan is one thing, but dancing around a loose cannon on their own team while in the middle of combat is quite another. Not to mention that accidentally transferring aggro to hapless team mates has nothing to do with an engineering role. You just lost your ship The tears will fuel my spaceship Go quit Eve again
-Bane Nucleus-á |
Auduin Samson
Do not disturb Sanctuary Pact
188
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 13:51:00 -
[36] - Quote
...Also, what would be the point of a stationary "Doom my allies for my survival" mode when it's intended job is moving around the field clearing/deploying structures? You just lost your ship The tears will fuel my spaceship Go quit Eve again
-Bane Nucleus-á |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4230
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 14:00:00 -
[37] - Quote
Auduin Samson wrote:Still sounds like a way too powerful ability that is completely out of the ship's intended role... It would be effectively indistructable until the entire fleet is dead, require careful maneuvering of other pilots to prevent being insta-killed by a mechanism that they have no control over, and still be a nightmare for any FC. When trying to coordinate targets and maneuvers, the last thing the FC should have to worry about is if anyone gets too close to one of their own ships WHILE carrying out said maneuvers. Not bumping a bridge titan is one thing, but dancing around a loose cannon on their own team while in the middle of combat is quite another. Not to mention that accidentally transferring aggro to hapless team mates has nothing to do with an engineering role. Again, the ship would be locked down, and unable to approach others in their own fleet.
Fleet members would need to deliberately place themselves in proximity for the effect to occur, so the random nature is really not genuine.
Fleet members who CHOOSE to defend this ship, need to position themselves nearly on top of it. It really is too easy to bypass otherwise, making it far less random for many concerns.
Heck, you could even require that the engineer boat designate a target, which needed to remain local to it, in order to use the flying shield effect.
The ultimate point is that your engineer boat should be able to avoid being popped as a priority target, or it's presence on grid is pointless.
Unboosted fleet wanted? Kill booster. Done. If the actions in the background being performed have meaning, it will be a priority target, as removing it would hurt every ship in range that it had been helping. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked... |
Auduin Samson
Do not disturb Sanctuary Pact
188
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 14:51:00 -
[38] - Quote
Again though, I don't see the point of making a ship whose sole purpose is moving around the battlefield completely immobile. You just lost your ship The tears will fuel my spaceship Go quit Eve again
-Bane Nucleus-á |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1493
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 14:58:00 -
[39] - Quote
These demo charges. if their limiting factor is explosion velocity, can they be used to gank marauders in bastion mode? kind of like an anti-siege weapon. And triage carriers and sieged dreads for that matter. No way to have them affect structures only? If DD's can only target caps, then it must be code-able to allow a mod to only target structures. and give them the old torp explosion animation.
rapid POS setups and take downs with an indy, cool idea. rapid deployable set-up and take down with a frig, cool idea
hacking deployables (and other things), more a scout, covert role. Covert frigs and astero or stratios can do that. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Auduin Samson
Do not disturb Sanctuary Pact
190
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 15:20:00 -
[40] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:These demo charges. if their limiting factor is explosion velocity, can they be used to gank marauders in bastion mode? kind of like an anti-siege weapon. And triage carriers and sieged dreads for that matter. No way to have them affect structures only? If DD's can only target caps, then it must be code-able to allow a mod to only target structures.
Didn't think about seige'd dreads and marauders. You're right, if there is a way to limit the demo charge's target to structures only, that would be ideal. While realistically a charge made to take down a structure should be just as effective against a parked ship, it would wreak havoc on game balance. You just lost your ship The tears will fuel my spaceship Go quit Eve again
-Bane Nucleus-á |
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4230
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 16:35:00 -
[41] - Quote
Auduin Samson wrote:Again though, I don't see the point of making a ship whose sole purpose is moving around the battlefield completely immobile. Why would this be moving around, considering it wants to deploy and activate non mobile assets?
Unless you choose to abandon these, it will be needed to recover them after the fact. Once it reaches the location to begin deploying items, there is no stated value to separating them. They only object to having duplicates in range of each other, often enough.
In fact, having a variety of them together allows benefits to be layered and work together.
For reference: Mobile Cynosural Inhibitor Two minute activation time, 100KM effective range
Mobile Depot, each version has 1 minute activation time
Mobile Micro jump unit 1 minute activation time
Mobile scan inhibitor, 30KM effective range 1 minute activation time (Having a few of these completely off grid might be advised, so the item itself is not self defeating)
Mobile Tractor unit, 125 to 175KM effective range 1 minute activation time
The rorqual teaches us that a loot pinata is avoided for exposure, so a vessel with the combined potential benefit to deploy all of these would definitely be a high priority target.
If it becomes impractical to expose, we know where that leads. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked... |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1149
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 17:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
As a base idea I like the ship (me I see a blockade runner hull for the idea industrial with purpose)
Issue would be what the alpha of a fleet of these would be for dropping pos's. Don't think individual but grouping, apply Malcanis's law.
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Auduin Samson
Do not disturb Sanctuary Pact
190
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 06:10:00 -
[43] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Why would this be moving around, considering it wants to deploy and activate non mobile assets?
Deploying and destroying non mobile assets. It's purpose would be to both anchor things quickly and to destroy anything anchored by the enemy. If the demo charge is a super long range weapon, it would be insanely OP, so it must instead be something that you have to get close to use.
Also, scooping objects usually doesn't happen until after the battle is over. First, many deployable objects that have been released recently are one-time-use. Cyno jammers, for example, can't be scooped and self destructs after an hour. Second, the objects that are reusable wouldn't benefit from a stationary ship. It's hard to put up disruption generators in strategic positions when you can only drop them in one place. Once they are up, by design they are going to be there a while. If you wanted to take them down quickly as well, you would just use interdictors. Finally, yurts only allow the ship that dropped them to refit. They are rarely used in combat, and when they are, everyone uses their own.
The siege-mode engineer would introduce a lot of problems and inconsistencies without providing any real benefit at all.
You just lost your ship The tears will fuel my spaceship Go quit Eve again
-Bane Nucleus-á |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
609
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 06:48:00 -
[44] - Quote
I imahine any module used to take down enemy structures would not be in the form of damage necessarily, using the same on lining timer but in reverse. So if it takes 45 seconds to online a certain module (using my ships skills and bonuses) then it would take the same amount of time to take it down/destroy it. that way it doesnt matter how many people are working on it, the effect wont multiply.
It would be resaonable to assume that removing things would be harder so if the take-down time was doubled or tripled to put the engineer ship in a vulnerable position in a longer time. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
482
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 07:46:00 -
[45] - Quote
I was thing of the combat engineer ships being more like the Hobarts Funnies from WWII, very capable in specific situation but pretty useless otherwise. So pos/module laying fits well at reduced times to deploy, armoured demo charge laying ship could work too (with appropriate trade-offs). It could be designed as the first ORE Tech III ship, with susbystems bonusing the more engineering based tasks (demo charge would be a heavily bonused damage but heavily nerfed range smart-bomb role for instance) |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4230
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 13:42:00 -
[46] - Quote
Auduin Samson wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:Why would this be moving around, considering it wants to deploy and activate non mobile assets? Deploying and destroying non mobile assets. It's purpose would be to both anchor things quickly and to destroy anything anchored by the enemy. If the demo charge is a super long range weapon, it would be insanely OP, so it must instead be something that you have to get close to use. Also, scooping objects usually doesn't happen until after the battle is over. First, many deployable objects that have been released recently are one-time-use. Cyno jammers, for example, can't be scooped and self destructs after an hour. Second, the objects that are reusable wouldn't benefit from a stationary ship. It's hard to put up disruption generators in strategic positions when you can only drop them in one place. Once they are up, by design they are going to be there a while. If you wanted to take them down quickly as well, you would just use interdictors. Finally, yurts only allow the ship that dropped them to refit. They are rarely used in combat, and when they are, everyone uses their own. The siege-mode engineer would introduce a lot of problems and inconsistencies without providing any real benefit at all. The engineer has no value, if all it is doing is simply dumping easter eggs at random points on the grid. Any ship with a large enough hold can fit a deployable, and dividing them between multiple ships makes such a deployment both easier to spread out, and faster than a single ship could duplicate even with bonuses.
If this ship is only present to compensate for difficulty coordinating, then it's purpose is halfway defeated on the design board.
One real value the engineer could bring, for example, is allowing multiple player use of a Yurt for refitting. This would likely necessitate it being in proximity, so OP yurts are not left floating all over.
The use of the ship's role implied being either behind the lines, or behind hard cover. If it has any real value on grid, and is not intended as a direct combat ship, then it does so by benefiting and enhancing other ships on grid. By doing this, it elevates it's value to the opponent to remove first, as it's presence makes every ship you have more effective. If it is removed first, it has no effect, and only represents a loss of time and ISK to the pilot and fleet.
In other words, if it is meant to be exposed by expectation, it's design is meaningless without some form of defense mechanic.
THAT is why I reference the Rorqual as an example, they are kept out of harms way for this reason.
Demolitions after the fact, or as part of a combat strategy for an ongoing fight, also raises this ship to priority status, resulting in the same issue effectively in order to protect the opponents fleet from losing their benefits. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked... |
Auduin Samson
Do not disturb Sanctuary Pact
191
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 14:14:00 -
[47] - Quote
One at a time.
Nikk Narrel wrote: The engineer has no value, if all it is doing is simply dumping easter eggs at random points on the grid. Any ship with a large enough hold can fit a deployable, and dividing them between multiple ships makes such a deployment both easier to spread out, and faster than a single ship could duplicate even with bonuses.
The suggested role and bonuses of this ship deal with just about everything you mentioned here. Yes, a whole fleet of ships coordinating drops could be more efficient, but that's not really what T2 ships are all about.
Nikk Narrel wrote: If this ship is only present to compensate for difficulty coordinating, then it's purpose is halfway defeated on the design board.
Again, this argument could be made for every T2 ship in existence. What's the point of a hulk when a bunch of ventures can mine just as much? What's the point of an Ishtar when a pair of Vexors can have the same effect? T2 ships aren't win buttons, they are specialized for a certain role. This ship is specialized for the building and clearing of structures. More ships could do the job, yes, but this can do it better.
Nikk Narrel wrote: One real value the engineer could bring, for example, is allowing multiple player use of a Yurt for refitting. This would likely necessitate it being in proximity, so OP yurts are not left floating all over.
This is very true. A subcap combat ship with a maintenance hangar would be an excellent addition. I'm pretty sure this has been suggested quite a few times though, so I imagine CCP has a reason for not introducing it. If this was a possibility though, I'd be all for it.
Nikk Narrel wrote: The use of the ship's role implied being either behind the lines, or behind hard cover. If it has any real value on grid, and is not intended as a direct combat ship, then it does so by benefiting and enhancing other ships on grid. By doing this, it elevates it's value to the opponent to remove first, as it's presence makes every ship you have more effective. If it is removed first, it has no effect, and only represents a loss of time and ISK to the pilot and fleet.
This applies to any ship in a fleet. Killing logistics first means the enemy ship can't rep. Killing tackle first means the enemy ship can't hold you down. Killing DPS first means they can't break your tank. Killing this first means your structures will be safer. I think you're overestimating the priority that an FC would put on killing this. Part of target calling is balancing the factors of what will and won't have detrimental effects on your fleet comp. Sometimes that may lead them to call this primary, sometimes it wont. Gimping its stats to prevent it being targeted in a fleet fight is a massive overreaction to a nonexistent problem.
Nikk Narrel wrote: In other words, if it is meant to be exposed by expectation, it's design is meaningless without some form of defense mechanic.
THAT is why I reference the Rorqual as an example, they are kept out of harms way for this reason.
It's not meant to be exposed by expectation. Not having powerful DPS in a fleet setting doesn't make you exposed. If that were the case, logi would be useless. A fleet is effective because of it's overall utility and leadership, not by the individual stats of any one ship in it. Logi and Ewar ships are both present in fleets with little to no armament or defensive mechanic. However, they're still extremely important to an effective fleet. This would be no different. It gives the fleet utility, and if the fleet is good, it will defend this ship just as it would any other asset.
This ship isn't meant to be a win button or a defensive juggernaut. It's meant to provide new roles in a variety of situations. Including a complicated defensive mechanic that grants little to no added utility isn't all that useful and would make the ship much more difficult to balance in gameplay. You have a very interesting idea, but I feel it would be ineffective to try to for it into this situation.
You just lost your ship The tears will fuel my spaceship Go quit Eve again
-Bane Nucleus-á |
Estella Osoka
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
360
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 15:13:00 -
[48] - Quote
I see a Combat Engineering ship as something that either excels in deploying defensive-style deployables or offensive-style deployables. I believe at one point in the game there was a mine that could be deployed in space. Maybe this type of ship could bring those back. |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4230
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 15:27:00 -
[49] - Quote
Ok, you are comparing the ship to a logi. That's not a good comparison.
The logi can only benefit a number of ships equal to how many reppers it's cap can sustain. Sure, it can swap which ships it helps, but it never can help more than a handful on it's watch list.
As to T2 ships being specialized, yes, and more often than not they are specialized in ways that cannot be duplicated effectively. This can be, regarding deployable items. That means it needs to be notably more efficient, or why bother?
As to a subcap with a maintenance hangar, that is not being suggested here either. Giving a Yurt the ability to support multiple boats makes the Yurt more effective. The engineer boat isn't refitting anything, but it can operate that Yurt better than others. The ability to take a separate deployed object, and make it more effective, THAT is a T2 kind of special.
Comparing the mass killing of logistics class vessels to this, again, seems off. This engineer boat implies more of a booster level role, in that it is placing deployed objects where they can be used. Having it's presence make these deployed objects more effective also makes sense. BUT, unlike a logi, it's role is PASSIVE, just like a fleet booster. A logi needs to be active, and directly target and maintain cap use so it can keep the reppers working.
The repeated use of logi comparisons seems a mis-match to me. Most of these deployables are exclusive to only permitting a single item in a range beyond what would make sense for many fleets. Like a booster, only the most effective engineer on the field would be of any value, the others being unable to deploy duplicate items by virtue of it's presence.
Maybe our definition of fleet is not matching here. I am thinking something more along the lines of 50 ships or less, and effectively mobile. Maybe you are considering something along more epic lines, where presence is such that all ships are not even on the same effective grid for everyone involved. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked... |
RoAnnon
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
310
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 15:57:00 -
[50] - Quote
I like the idea +1
Never not add new ships
So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter. |
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Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
20201
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 14:45:00 -
[51] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:As a base idea I like the ship (me I see a blockade runner hull for the idea industrial with purpose)
Issue would be what the alpha of a fleet of these would be for dropping pos's. Don't think individual but grouping, apply Malcanis's law.
m that actually made me understand that demo charges are better off staying as bombs launched from stealth bombers. Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase
I like to gank it, gank it!
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Auduin Samson
Do not disturb Sanctuary Pact
195
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Posted - 2014.05.19 05:40:00 -
[52] - Quote
Liafcipe9000 wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:As a base idea I like the ship (me I see a blockade runner hull for the idea industrial with purpose)
Issue would be what the alpha of a fleet of these would be for dropping pos's. Don't think individual but grouping, apply Malcanis's law.
m that actually made me understand that demo charges are better off staying as bombs launched from stealth bombers.
I feel like the POS reinforcement mechanic would cancel this out. These ships would have very low EHP compared to the battleships/dreads that are usually used for dropping POS's. If a station is reinforced, it's owners will (or at least should) be ready to defend it when it comes out. A large fleet of these would be dangerous to undefended structures, but due to the short range of the charge and the low EHP of the ship, they would be far from ideal from taking down a POS by themselves. It could be argued that the enemy fleet brings ample support to compliment these ships, but then we again come up against a case of simply being outplayed rather than balance being off.
Someone suggested a few posts back though that the charge could be a timer based weapon instead of a missile of some sort. If each charge requires that you stay in range of your target for a length of time while the charge deploys, that would help to prevent a warp in/insta-blap of towers. I'm not opposed to the idea of a massive fleet hit-and-running a tower or it's modules, but there would have to be some way to defend against it lest the balance be completely skewed. You just lost your ship The tears will fuel my spaceship Go quit Eve again
-Bane Nucleus-á |
Alyssa Haginen
State War Academy Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 18:16:00 -
[53] - Quote
+1 I like any ideas making structure deployment more involved.
I am pushing for a version of this that is something like space engineers using ships to construct structures instead of people. A new line of medium-heavy tanker building ships that specialize in building with space arms and small drone bays. One person can build something small in a few minutes where as building a station would take one person much longer. Team construction and demolition firms would be born. |
Benar Ellecon
Card games on MOTORCYCLES
25
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 14:35:00 -
[54] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:I see a Combat Engineering ship as something that either excels in deploying defensive-style deployables or offensive-style deployables. I believe at one point in the game there was a mine that could be deployed in space. Maybe this type of ship could bring those back.
This ^^
Having combat engineering ships would be an excellent addition to expand the possibilities. As for the mines, I was not in before they were taken out but I would like to see them again because they sound like they would be a lot of fun to use.
Back to the top for some more consideration! Fly with your hair on FIRE! |
Auduin Samson
Do not disturb Sanctuary Pact
197
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 13:55:00 -
[55] - Quote
Bringing mines back would certainly give combat engineering a new and impressive role. I don't know why exactly they were removed though, so I don't even know if that's a possibility. You just lost your ship The tears will fuel my spaceship Go quit Eve again
-Bane Nucleus-á |
Auduin Samson
Do not disturb Sanctuary Pact
202
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 08:10:00 -
[56] - Quote
Any feeback before this gets swept into the abyss? There seems to be enough support that I would love for a dev to at least take a look at it. You just lost your ship The tears will fuel my spaceship Go quit Eve again
-Bane Nucleus-á |
CraftyCroc
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
229
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 08:43:00 -
[57] - Quote
V cool - I'd vote for the name Samson in recognition of your fantastic idea. |
Solhild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1471
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 08:58:00 -
[58] - Quote
I like the idea. Could make demo charges ineffective if detonated in the area or effect from a warp core. The same lore that gives the ship a drag in space could protect ships from these devices so they are only effective on anchored structures. |
Auduin Samson
Do not disturb Sanctuary Pact
206
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 09:14:00 -
[59] - Quote
Solhild wrote:The same lore that gives the ship a drag in space could protect ships from these devices so they are only effective on anchored structures.
Little off topic, but could you link that? I honestly didn't know there was any lore that explained why my ships slow down :P
Back on topic though, yeah, if there was a way to make the demo charge only be able to target anchored structures, that would be ideal. As much as I love the idea of a fleet of combat engineers finally getting even with a dreadnought, I'm pretty sure that would break the game. You just lost your ship The tears will fuel my spaceship Go quit Eve again
-Bane Nucleus-á |
Mana Shian
Fault Line Industries Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
5
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 18:35:00 -
[60] - Quote
Auduin Samson wrote:Bringing mines back would certainly give combat engineering a new and impressive role. I don't know why exactly they were removed though, so I don't even know if that's a possibility. I hear these were the reasons mines were removed back then:
- No minimum distance between each other
- No limit to how many a person could put down
- Hellcamps were even hellcampier
If mines were limited to only Combat Engineers, had a minimum distance between them, and then limited to only five per ship (one per level), I could see mines making a return to EVE while giving a new ship type (The Combat Engineer) a niche. |
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