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Jur Tissant
Hemah Industries
56
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Posted - 2014.05.17 18:43:00 -
[31] - Quote
Clearly the "immortal" trait has exceptions. For example, if all of your clones were destroyed then you wouldn't have anywhere to jump to. I suppose they might be able to store your consciousness elsewhere, but then that could be erased as well. |
Saul Elsyn
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
133
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Posted - 2014.05.17 19:07:00 -
[32] - Quote
Don't forget at the last Fanfest, the devs heavily hinted at the Guristas developing a way to make a mind transfer from a Capsuleer to a Dust Merc or Valkyrie pirate. That tech suggests an effort to make a more universal implant and consciousness transfer system.
I'd guess it'd also be possible to store neural patterns as computer data, thus making it so that an individual that was 'out of clones' could be saved in a computer bank. Which is why we have bits of lore about infomorphs. |
Xindi Kraid
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
767
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Posted - 2014.05.18 05:16:00 -
[33] - Quote
Jur Tissant wrote:Clearly the "immortal" trait has exceptions. For example, if all of your clones were destroyed then you wouldn't have anywhere to jump to. I suppose they might be able to store your consciousness elsewhere, but then that could be erased as well.
The term used for Capsuleers and DUST mercs (really need a better name) is "effectively immortal" since it takes some doing to make them stay dead. |
Gabriel Dube
Notorious Legion
3
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Posted - 2014.05.18 05:18:00 -
[34] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:Think about cloud computing, no one said that capsuleers can't use implants that are making their consciousness stream to system and in fact a whole with the system that is its host, not only a brain, but a whole system including implants.
Cloud consciousness, where you think with not only your brain, but your consiousness is spread in a system like a butter on a loaf of bread. You could take a bite off of it, but then again system would know what the loaf of bread looked like moment ago, so it would just repetedly update itself, like an evergrowing tree that knows its whole model.
Implants in stations, and a network of stations itself would be a host of your consciousness. Think about being everywhere there, but sensing your body like you do now. In the moment of death senses would shut off, like they do when you die, but your consciousness would stay intact upholded by whole system. I see it that way.
What you are talking about is, in classical sci-fi terms, often regarded as post-"technological singularity" tech. This has tons of humongously important implications. Although it is probably not impossible to have something artificial that is functionally comparable to a human mind, it would definitely not operate on the same principles, since its thought-equivalents would not emerge from an actual organic brain made of interconnected neurons. Essentially, this would make capsuleers be a lot more similar to rogue drones sentient software than to anything else. It would not fit the eve universe at all.
For cloning to even make sense, the brain image we are talking about can only be a mapping of the architectural configuration of an actual biological brain; a 3D image with a ridiculously high definition that records exactly what is where in your brain at a neurological, or maybe even molecular level.
It is not even software, it is a blueprint.
This is the main reason why, even with the technology to store complex brain mappings in a database (which is not all that complicated, given a large enough database), those brain mappings cannot be functional consciousness on their own. That's why it needs to be made into an actual organic brain for your mind to exist again. It is the electro-chemical activity in a biological brain that makes it work the way it does.
Otherwise, why even keep a pre-made clone? Capsuleers in a post-singularity sci-fi universe would quickly realize that it is extremely more practical to exist as software most of the time and to only build a cloned biological body when they actually need one. You wouldn't need your biological body when you are plugged in your ship, so this would defeat the whole purpose of capsule tech. Your character would then be a form of software-being that uploads itself into a ship and that can simply upload itself somewhere else if said ship is destroyed or not needed. Clones would only be occasionally kept as blank bodies to upload yourself into whenever you want to stop being a sentient ship and would rather become human again.
If what you are saying is, in fact, possible in the EVE universe, then practically all forms of cloning are already obsolete because of the same technology that made consciousness-transfer cloning possible.
Edit: On a side note, I really hope that what I described here is not what happened with the sleepers. |
Kallie Altosoro
The Ornery Goat
5
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Posted - 2014.05.18 06:04:00 -
[35] - Quote
I had thought about that myself. If you're outside your pod and your clone dies, are you truly dead?
I guess it would depend on the medical technology in the story. In the movie "The Sixth Day," when someone dies, they are taken back to a lab and a picture of the guy's memories are taken (I think it is called a syncording or something like that.) The movie doesn't say if there is a short window of time where the recording can not be made and the person is lost. The movie doesn't say either way as a matter of fact. Would this be a factor in EVE? I don't know.
I would imagine something like this scenario: while on a station outside of their pod, a barrel falls off a shelf and whacks a capsuleer in the back severing the spinal cord and killing the person instantly. The station's computer, which monitors the life signs of all individuals on board, senses the capsuleer's death and alerts medical personnel to the injured / decease's location. All medical personnel would carry one of those memory burners as standard equipment. When they find the capsuleer dead, the med tech hooks the dead body up, the memories are scanned, and then transferred to the waiting clone. As long as the brain is intact and suffered no damage or decay, resurrection is possible.
That's how I see it anyway.
(HA! I knew the board wasn't going to post this! Good thing I C&P'ed it!)
"Hey, this is my kind of rain.-á No wonder the sky looked funny today."-á -Dante
At warp, I can fly through a star.-á But I have to finaggle my way around this asteroid.-á /smirk |
Xindi Kraid
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
767
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 09:05:00 -
[36] - Quote
The problem with that is that standard cloning works by taking a snapshot of neural activity.
Even if brain death hasn't occurred yet, the death of the body is going to throw that activity off, so copying that is only going to cause problems. It's even mentioned in the lore about cloning that taking the snapshot too late is bad for this reason. |
Kallie Altosoro
The Ornery Goat
5
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Posted - 2014.05.18 09:39:00 -
[37] - Quote
Xindi Kraid wrote:The problem with that is that standard cloning works by taking a snapshot of neural activity.
Even if brain death hasn't occurred yet, the death of the body is going to throw that activity off, so copying that is only going to cause problems. It's even mentioned in the lore about cloning that taking the snapshot too late is bad for this reason.
I didn't say it was perfect.
"Hey, this is my kind of rain.-á No wonder the sky looked funny today."-á -Dante
At warp, I can fly through a star.-á But I have to finaggle my way around this asteroid.-á /smirk |
Esna Pitoojee
Wolfsbrigade
Lost Obsession
418
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Posted - 2014.05.18 21:00:00 -
[38] - Quote
Erica Dusette wrote:Xindi Kraid wrote:If I remember the most recent of those discussions, the word from the devs was somewhat noncommittal as far as soft cloning goes. They didn't say anything to encourage thinking it was possible, but I don't remember the idea being shot down outright. Pretty much. From memory they said there's no solid basis in lore to support 'soft cloning', although conceded that it's a concept that's been used now so widely and for so long that it's kinda be made lore by the playerbase.
Just going to drag back these comments for a moment to be clear on something: While we've never had a dev outright say "Yes this is absolutely possible", there have have been numerous implicit confirmations. The example that comes to mind was when a dev-actor character was walking into a potentially dangerous situation (out of the pod) and was outright asked what would happen if he was attacked, he said "uh, I'll just clone?"
That is, in my opinion, pretty clear confirmation that it is possible to somehow produce a 'backup' which can be held in storage until needed. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
543
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Posted - 2014.05.19 05:04:00 -
[39] - Quote
Source also confirms the existence of backups. It's soft clones (scanning slowly to not destroy the brain in the process) that is up in the air. |
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
1
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Posted - 2014.05.19 20:39:00 -
[40] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Source also confirms the existence of backups. It's soft clones (scanning slowly to not destroy the brain in the process) that is up in the air.
I looked up previous questions like this and did find some people mentioning soft-scans. That would have to be the way that jump clones work, but does it require a machine like an EEG, and a certain amount of time? |
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Xindi Kraid
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
786
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Posted - 2014.05.20 20:58:00 -
[41] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Source also confirms the existence of backups. It's soft clones (scanning slowly to not destroy the brain in the process) that is up in the air.
Can I get a page number for that?
I haven't read cover to cover yet so I must have missed that if it's there.
I don't remember seeing that in the bit on cloning tech and the capsule. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5010
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Posted - 2014.06.19 06:45:00 -
[42] - Quote
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:I can't remember where I read it (I think Empyrean Age), but I remember reading about how the cloning system works, when a capsuleer is podded. When it detects a breach in the pod, it flashes an image of the capsuleer's brain and transmits it through the stargates (basically routers), eventually reaching the medical bay where your clone is, to update the clone up to the moment where he died.
Which raises an interesting question; Since you don't have a system detecting when you're dead, what happens, lore-wise, if a capsuleer dies in station?
If you read the chronicle regarding the battle of Luminaire, there was an implication that capsuleers get some of that DUST implant thing going too.
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Durbon Groth
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
103
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Posted - 2014.07.03 03:35:00 -
[43] - Quote
Ooooh I've always wanted to join in a lore discussion...
IIRC there was a bit in the empyrean novel when the Thanatos crashes into the Ishukone (?) / Caldari station and the CEO of the station's corp refuses to evacuate - there's a bit where his sister is begging him to leave because all of his clones are in the station and he won't survive. There must be some way of transferring consciousness without pod tech. Let's not forget the capsuleers all have implants that bind their minds to the ships when they're in the pod. Or to valkyrie/dust interfaces. Neither dust mercs nor valkyrie pilots use pods yet they all transfer consciousness upon death.
I think the machine that scans the brain and sends the signal out is inside the body of the capsuleer's clone. Either that or it's an extension to be used when not in a pod. The lethal injection tech (used before the brain snapshot) would have to be incorporated too though i'm not sure how that would work if cause of death is severe head trauma. But I never understood that about pods either...
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