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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1039
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Posted - 2014.05.14 20:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
I get it. Admirable goal to reduce meaningless complexity while increasing meaningful choices. But, as they say, the devil is in the details.
Everyone is looking for passive income to avoid the grind. Manufacturing is one of those few passive incomes. Becuase you can run multiple jobs on multiple toons per account, and industrialists generally have multiple accounts to take advantage of economies of scale (If I'm mining on 1, I may as well be mining on 3, boosting on a 4th and hauling with a 5th), capacity will always far exceed demand.
The result of this massive excess capacity is that price is, and will be, a slim margin above lowest cost to produce.
This simple fact destroys ANY idea of "meaningful choice". There will be one, minimum price to bring to market, and sale price will be a slim margin above that minimum, and any choice that results in a higher cost to bring to market will be unprofitable, and therefore not a real choice.
The "pull" of teams is going to turn into utter market dominance by the mega alliances that will be able to outbid little guys for the best teams. Building at a fully upgraded outpost within a single jump freight jump of high sec will be the lowest price, and therefore will become the only way to manufacture at scale, at a profit.
As for removing meaningless complexity, I really think the designers badly misunderstood the source of the complexity. The changes to both research and slots are.... sub-optimal... Which is a slightly nicer way of saying "total disaster" which is a more accurate description. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2655
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Posted - 2014.05.14 20:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm confused. Is this a thread complaining that nullsec industry might actually be worth doing, for the first time in ten years? |
Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2605
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Posted - 2014.05.14 20:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
I think we both agree that these changes destroy the steady-state, totally optimized landscape of t1 manufacturing. But you're suggesting this will result in a new steady-state optimized solution centering on upgraded nullsec stations. I might have agreed with you had I only read the refining dev blog. But I feel like installation costs, lower-tier and cheaper teams, fuel costs, discounts for multiple stations, and the comparative ease of running a hisec industrial operation (which manifests itself in many ways) will prevent this from becoming the case. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1040
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Posted - 2014.05.14 21:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
Batelle wrote:I think we both agree that these changes destroy the steady-state, totally optimized landscape of t1 manufacturing. But you're suggesting this will result in a new steady-state optimized solution centering on upgraded nullsec stations. I might have agreed with you had I only read the refining dev blog. But I feel like installation costs, lower-tier and cheaper teams, fuel costs, discounts for multiple stations, and the comparative ease of running a hisec industrial operation (which manifests itself in many ways) will prevent this from becoming the case.
Installation costs are likely to be similar between high sec and null, with null having better control. Discounts for multiple are only discounts to the install cost, and likely to be based on all facilities, including POS facilities. No fuel cost for outpost, or no additioanl cost for jobs anyway.
The comment about teams I do not understand since that blog specifically states that the code to create teams will be identical across space, and the fees for distance will be relatively small so the best teams will be competed for universally.
For the items that can't be cheaply built and in shallow null and jump freighter-ed into high (because too big for cost), mega alliances will be able to dominate by bidding the best teams into systems where they control all the moons and there are no station services.
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
424
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Posted - 2014.05.14 21:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
I jsut don't see 0.0 rushing to spam t1 markets tbh. At least not at the amount they will go walmart price as it were. Titan bridge ops to move the charons to bulk move tons of say stabbers for low prices I am just not seeing. Vaga's, maybe, but not stabber.
I see 0.0 hopefully creating more local markets where your price cuts you fear would be welcome. As in its current state, or at least in a few homes I was in before I was often forced to hit empire and ship out as 0.0 station stockers liked to gouge prices to where even factoring in shipping costs empire buys were cheaper.
Well that and empire indies may get a break. 0.0 usually puts in the fuel costs into thier prices. And the labor charges. I am not seeing t1 shift too much here price wise. It already had a baseline price anyway. I know how much a say scorpion costs to make. If you want to have a higher price....by all means. This why I put buy orders up in advance of need. If you won't drop your prices I know at some point some builder will need some quick isk and fill my buy order. If it makes you feel better I do reasonable buy orders so the builder makes some isk.
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1040
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Posted - 2014.05.14 21:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:I'm confused. Is this a thread complaining that nullsec industry might actually be worth doing, for the first time in ten years?
I have two main beliefs I'm addressing here:
Attempts to create meaningful choice will fail because capacity far exceeds demand and markets will adjust to be a slim profit argin over new minimum cost of manufacturing. Manufacturing in anyway other than the minimum cost way will result in near-0 to negative profit and therefore will not really be a choice.
Changes being made allow huge alliances to achieve this new minimum cost of manufacturing, but smaller corps will not be able to. Therefore, the pull will be to join a mega corp, effectively killing small corps for manufacturing.
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1318
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Posted - 2014.05.15 00:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
If and when you have a serious and well worded proposal for the betterment of EvE, please feel free to post it. In the mean time, this thread gets a lock.
The Rules: 3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents. ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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