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Opening up 0.0 and removing choke points

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Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.05.30 10:17:00 - [1] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 30/05/2006 10:18:35 Opening up more routes into the regions would make the game different and more interesting. No longer could the chokepoints be camped, and no longer could entire regions be blocked off by alliances. It would be impossible to protect a large amount of space. Alliances would have to claim only the space it could defend without using chokepoints. There would be more traffic in 0.0, more fights, more politics, more strategy and more fun overall. Instead of letting the map do all the work (chokepoints), sentries could be built and deployed to defend the entrance to your system and protect your bases. There could also be other structures, like scanner structures providing better and more detailed information about where the enemy ships are. If you logged off while in space that belongs to your enemy, your ship would remain in space. Think of this idea as Command & Conquer strategy, but implemented in a way that works in Eve. Im just throwing some ideas around to see what people think. Dont flame me personally if you dont like the idea. I would rather hear why its so stupid. Shoot. --- The Eve Wiki Project
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.05.30 10:20:00 - [2] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/05/2006 10:20:35 Alliance repercussions by this idea will be very lethal. IMHO 0.0 will be a living pain for non-locals. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Grash Freedom	Posted - 2006.05.30 10:21:00 - [3] I do not agree Eve is a political/economical/pvp game If you remove chokepoints then, eve will have no borders=no politics=no space ownership=no isks=no pvp It will make eve or a dull place to be, or just a griefing game
Aeon Yakati	Posted - 2006.05.30 10:27:00 - [4] How about making the borderzones inbetween (some of) the empires 0.0 in Kali? Think of it as a sort of neutral zone where none of the opposing (non-warring) factions may enter and as such those parts become lawless space. The space inbetween warring factions will ofcourse be chaotic and depending on the progress of the war you can run into friendly or hostile faction NPCs who will aid/shoot you. Incidentally, this would open up whole new trading prospects as inter-empire trading would become a lot riskier.
Miss Overlord	Posted - 2006.05.30 10:29:00 - [5] 8 new 0.0 regions will be opened by CCP before or at kali no stations will be present so outposts and POS will become the settlement out there. As for sentries nothing like real peeps to protect youre space that said more connectors need to be built
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.05.30 10:30:00 - [6] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 30/05/2006 10:33:46 The idea itself isn't that stupid, but it won't solve much of anything. Alliances already do not defend their space by virtue of chokepoints alone. If you'd know a bit more about them, you'd not have made this point really. You hardly ever see someone in an alliance saying that chokepoints are actually important. They are a nice battleground, and they make logistics something of a challenge, but in no way do they determine solely how hard it is to defend a region. An alliance based on chokepoint defense dies, fast, and hard. Because no chokepoint defense stops a determined foe from entering, and once in, they can go rampant on your weak targets. Good alliance defense is not having many weak targets, since protecting them is impossible. Chokepoints have no role in that. Chokepoints only serve to make it easier to stop people from moving into your space at will. It helps against those targets that weren't that much of a threat to start with. Old blog
Rellik B00n	Posted - 2006.05.30 10:31:00 - [7] balls to em all, totally agree. Open up all of 0.0. . Learning to pvp, click here to view My kills
Brute Helmet	Posted - 2006.05.30 10:40:00 - [8] Best thing you could do to open up 0.0 is to turn all NPC stations in 0.0 into PQS ones... _____________________________ Support the MGRL - uncover your six
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.05.30 10:51:00 - [9] They've added more chokepoints in the past twice I think. One thing you'll notice is that "open 0.0" is often not a good thing. The most "open" 0.0 regions are completely lawless and deadly. The safest 0.0 regions are those that are controlled by alliances, usually. Our home region Querious has been a warzone for over 5 months now, but I'd still rather be there than in Syndicate or Pure Blind! [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Uther Doull	Posted - 2006.05.30 10:52:00 - [10] i think having more chokepoints would be a good thing, that way the defenders would have to spread out more and there would be more opportunities to enter 0.0 however completely removing chokepoints would be a bad thing, because actually catching some1 who doesn't want to be caught in 0.0 is very hard, if not impossible, thus making defense very very hard
ToxicFire	Posted - 2006.05.30 11:10:00 - [11] look at real historic military campaigns and battles they have always been about taking and holding key points on the map, wether they be resources or travel routes. What was the main objective of the invasion of holland by the allies in ww2, to take the bridges. Why, because these are choke points and deny the enermy access. Realisticly no military protects all of its territorial borders simultaniously.
Nightly	Posted - 2006.05.30 11:22:00 - [12] Edited by: Nightly on 30/05/2006 11:24:33 The reason I am inclined to support the idea of opening up 0.0 and giving less choke points is that it opens the game up to people the haven't got a three year advantage plus loads of cash. Some background: I played Eve from the start and sold my account (cries) about six months after release. My former character was very involved in a big alliance and had I played on I would probably be a fat cat by now. Now I have rejoined Eve (about 6 weeks ago) I am looking at the game from a strategic point of view and wondering am I ever likely to get the most from the game? Ideally I would want to get my corp (eventually) a space station somewhere, starting out with mining ops in 0.0 or a move into 0.0 - but at the moment I just can't see this being realistic, and this is a pity as I know 0.0 is where it's at with all the danger, intrigue, politics and riches. This idea of opening up systems might just give corps like ours the hope or ambition of getting station up in 0.0 somewhere and playing a part in the politics of Eve. Just MHO
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.05.30 11:30:00 - [13] Originally by: ToxicFire look at real historic military campaigns and battles they have always been about taking and holding key points on the map, wether they be resources or travel routes. What was the main objective of the invasion of holland by the allies in ww2, to take the bridges. Why, because these are choke points and deny the enermy access. Realisticly no military protects all of its territorial borders simultaniously. Of course. And this is exacly how Eve works today. Space is defended with the use of strategic locations (bridges = chokepoints). This thread has made me realize that its not that simple though. Chokepoints may stop some people from entering, but as Rod says, it will not stop somebody that is determined to get through. Im happy to see that ISS and others offers some possibilities for people to be in 0.0 without actually joining an alliance though. Alot of newbies just want to make a decent bunch of cash and arent spies or pirates. --- The Eve Wiki Project
Arkanor	Posted - 2006.05.30 11:30:00 - [14] Originally by: Grash Freedom It will make eve or a dull place to be, or just a griefing game The constant mindless gate-killing going on is not a griefing game as opposed to having to protect your assets instead of every m3 of space? ________________________________________________ \_/ <-- My care cup, LOOK it's empty!
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.05.30 11:36:00 - [15] Originally by: Nightly ... Dunno how younger and less established players can control 0.0 regions from players with 2-3 years advantage even with more choke points opened. New players dont have the ISKs, resources nor player power to subjugate other players in political dominance. As it stands now, older and younger players need each other. Older players providing resources and ISKs and younger players filling the role of political pawns. EvE is just about dominating others in every possible way, all in the name of fun. Old alliances get subjugated by new alliances every day. Younger players just need to pick an established side, join in the fun until their alliance of choice crumbles into oblivion and join newer ones. You dont just expect to be able to control others by being young. That is life, and life is always a living pain and so is EvE. Guess everyone will just have to live with it and adapt? My 1 ISK. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Nightly	Posted - 2006.05.30 11:41:00 - [16] We wouldn't be looking for dominance though - just a corner of 0.0 where we could put a POS up or something. Or even an office in a station somewhere. I have been reading up these last few days trying to find an alliance to suit this and the more I read the more difficult it gets to see where we can fit in. We have one older player (my RL bro) with cash and I was even looking at buying into an ISS station but they are all sold out. I'm sure we will find a way but it is looking mighty trivky atm
Ichabod Crane	Posted - 2006.05.30 11:42:00 - [17] Originally by: Dark Shikari Our home region Querious has been a warzone for over 5 months now, but I'd still rather be there than in Syndicate or Pure Blind! Syndicate isnt really all that deadly these days, its nothing compared to what it was two years ago misses old days -
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.05.30 11:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Nightly We wouldn't be looking for dominance though - just a corner of 0.0 where we could put a POS up or something. Or even an office in a station somewhere. I have been reading up these last few days trying to find an alliance to suit this and the more I read the more difficult it gets to see where we can fit in. We have one older player (my RL bro) with cash and I was even looking at buying into an ISS station but they are all sold out. I'm sure we will find a way but it is looking mighty trivky atm The problem isnt about you looking for dominance. It is about others who want to dominate you. You arent looking for trouble but trouble will always look for you. Imagine you have secured a region of 0.0 space and call it Arkanor city. You guys grow there happily for months then some new alliance says, we want Arkanor city. If they are bigger and stronger than you, you will just need to be at the receiving end of their terms. That is MMO for you. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Kuolematon	Posted - 2006.05.30 11:52:00 - [19] Originally by: Grash Freedom It will make eve or a dull place to be, or just a griefing game Will make? WILL MAKE?! I tought it's ALREADY! Unnerf Amarr! Proud member of Caldari Provisions
Jeffrey Spunkims	Posted - 2006.05.30 11:52:00 - [20] The problem is there is nowhere to go other then transit from belt to station or vice versa, station to station or gate to station or vice versa. Theres very limited ways of locking someone down because of the range of scramblers and the WCS and the bubble is created specifically to be sat at a camp. The devs seem to be specifically steering the game in the direction of group killing and chokepoints are obviously a part of the plan. If you removed the chokepoints, people would go and camp the next best thing, probably stations. Then you'd be asking for them to put more stations in 0.0 etc. Infinity Ziona
ToxicFire	Posted - 2006.05.30 11:53:00 - [21] Edited by: ToxicFire on 30/05/2006 11:53:43
Hamshoe	Posted - 2006.05.30 12:10:00 - [22] Originally by: ToxicFire look at real historic military campaigns and battles they have always been about taking and holding key points on the map, wether they be resources or travel routes. What was the main objective of the invasion of holland by the allies in ww2, to take the bridges. Why, because these are choke points and deny the enermy access. Realisticly no military protects all of its territorial borders simultaniously. You'll also note that in Market Garden (and other Ops), the Allies bypassed many of these "chokepoints", taking several simultaneously. These chokepoints never completely interdicted movement, they just made movement faster and easier. Market Garden didn't fail due to the chokepoints, it was a logistical miscalculation. In fact, you'll find countless examples of military (and comercial) success that involve "taking the long route" (e.g. Hannibal over the Alps) an option not available when every possible entry point into a system in known within 30km. I know that more (or different) travel options present a threat to the established order, and so I understand the fear of change. But understand also, that to a player interested in exploration or a little solo mining the warning that open space is lawless rings kind of hollow, because the current law is "We know where you have to come in, and we'll shoot you on sight." I'd vote for more options than, "Well, I guess you'll have to do it the way we say". Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Lan Malkier	Posted - 2006.05.30 12:52:00 - [23] Maybe this would a good use of the new discovery system that is in the works. The long established gates are the bridges and by scanning (or however this new system will work) you can discover natural wormholes or something that allow you to bypass the chokepoints. These bypasses would only be available for X period of time before they collapse and you have go hunting again. Just a thought.
Laythun	Posted - 2006.05.30 13:10:00 - [24] Originally by: Hamshoe Originally by: ToxicFire look at real historic military campaigns and battles they have always been about taking and holding key points on the map, wether they be resources or travel routes. What was the main objective of the invasion of holland by the allies in ww2, to take the bridges. Why, because these are choke points and deny the enermy access. Realisticly no military protects all of its territorial borders simultaniously. I know that more (or different) travel options present a threat to the established order, and so I understand the fear of change. But understand also, that to a player interested in exploration or a little solo mining the warning that open space is lawless rings kind of hollow, because the current law is "We know where you have to come in, and we'll shoot you on sight." I'd vote for more options than, "Well, I guess you'll have to do it the way we say". Your trying to tackle this problem with the wrong solution. creating more entrances to 0.0 will do 1 thing. Create more chokepoints. See You In Space Cowboy -Capsicum If im flaming or not contributing, im sorry. But im trying to get into the [23]
Izo Azlion	Posted - 2006.05.30 13:13:00 - [25] Originally by: Nightly Edited by: Nightly on 30/05/2006 11:29:49 Edited by: Nightly on 30/05/2006 11:24:33 The reason I am inclined to support the idea of opening up 0.0 and giving less choke points is that it opens the game up to people the haven't got a three year advantage plus loads of cash. Some background: I played Eve from the start and sold my account (cries) about six months after release. My former character was very involved in a big alliance and had I played on I would probably be a fat cat by now. Now I have rejoined Eve (about 6 weeks ago) I am looking at the game from a strategic point of view and wondering am I ever likely to get the most from the game? Ideally I would want to get my corp (eventually) a space station somewhere, starting out with mining ops in 0.0 or a move into 0.0 - but at the moment I just can't see this being realistic, and this is a pity as I know 0.0 is where it's at with all the danger, intrigue, politics and riches. This idea of opening up systems might just give corps like ours the hope or ambition of getting station up in 0.0 somewhere and playing a part in the politics of Eve. I should add I do appreciate that people who have been playing the game longer deserve more kudos and I am not seeking to get some fast-track to riches to put me equal power - just a hope that with a lot of effort we can reach the higher levels of gameplay and strategy etc. Just MHO 5 months old. About 600mil in assets, isk and implants, 5.7mil character. I'm part of ASCN, so im part of the danger, intrigue, politics and riches that you speak of, and I get the benefits of our space. To me, 5 months isnt old, but I'm out here doing it. Doesnt take game changing things to get out here and do it. It just takes interest and the will to not be protected by Concord every second of the day. Izo Azlion. Sha Kharn. Ascendant Frontier ---
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.05.30 13:18:00 - [26] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 30/05/2006 13:27:13 Originally by: Laythun Your trying to tackle this problem with the wrong solution. creating more entrances to 0.0 will do 1 thing. Create more chokepoints. No, it would create more routes into the region. A chokepoint means you cant get around it. Its like a bridge. If you have 20 bridges to guard, you will have to pick some of them to defend or be very weak at all of them. People have mentioned that if chokepoints was removed, the regions would be alot more dangerous. And I agree, there would be alot more fighting over resources since it would be easy for everybody to travel there. But wouldnt this make the game more interesting? Instead of choke points there would be sentries or people protecting the more vital systems. Right now you can block off hundreds of systems by guarding a single gate. I realize its very possible to join an alliance and be in 0.0 that way though. But you wont get most empire dwellers out to 0.0 this way. It simply doesnt seem to work since so many people stay in empire. If you have a better suggestion to get people to actually play the game in 0.0 rather than in empire, feel free to add them. All of you oldtimers says 0.0 is where the real game is. And yes, I agree. But why doesnt empire dwellers join alliances and go to 0.0 then? Because they think it will require alot of time and effort to be in a alliance. I think they are right. 0.0 is not for the casual player. So is this good for the game? --- The Eve Wiki Project
Rabbitgod	Posted - 2006.05.30 13:18:00 - [27] Its wouldn't help. So what if their are no choke points? The decent alliances have POSin %90 of the space they claim and own stations in any of the worth while systems. But what about that dead end system you never use? Those systems are like wyoming. Its sits in the middle of the US and nobody is really sure what it's good for. But that doesn't fricken mean the US is just gonna ignore someone moving in to wyoming to set up a goverment of their own. Look if you want in to 0.0 you need to do one of two things. 1)Find an allince you like them find a corp in said allince that you like and join. or 2)Raise an allince of your own with anough people, ships, ammo, and fuel to take a region of your own. Its not that hard their are plenty of weakly defendy regions out there being defended by people that just want 0.0 to mine and rat in and run at the first sign of PvP. This is EvE-Online go forth and cut out a peice of the map if you want it. But you have to want it bad enough. How I mine 4 biomass?!!11one1eleven Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
Telemicus Thrace	Posted - 2006.05.30 13:54:00 - [28] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 30/05/2006 13:27:13 Originally by: Laythun Your trying to tackle this problem with the wrong solution. creating more entrances to 0.0 will do 1 thing. Create more chokepoints. No, it would create more routes into the region. A chokepoint means you cant get around it. Its like a bridge. If you have 20 bridges to guard, you will have to pick some of them to defend or be very weak at all of them.... Choke points are the first line of defence, Second line is a flying squad in the heartland. Think Rourkes Drift (See old Michael Cane movie "Zulu"). They had a perimeter but also a squad inside ready to plug the gaps. Same deal. Getting past the chokes is easy. Go around them (there is always a way around them) or go though them in a small fast ship. Doing something useful once there is the real trick. Adding more entrances will just force border guards to use the roving mob technique instead. If you want into 0.0 talk to people, start at "la maison de touts les plaisirs". You'll be suprised what you'll hear over a few shandys. I think the only way 0.0 will end up more populated is when empire becomes so crowded you just can't make a decent living there. Just like real life. Only the desperate or those in search of a lucky break head to the frontier to live. >> RECRUITING <<
Hamshoe	Posted - 2006.05.31 04:26:00 - [29] Originally by: Laythun Your trying to tackle this problem with the wrong solution. creating more entrances to 0.0 will do 1 thing. Create more chokepoints. Enough of them makes the "choke" ineffective. Kinda like the Atlantic is a chokepoint between Europe and North America. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?

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