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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Bistekkona
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Posted - 2006.06.01 07:42:00 -
[1]
After 11 months of playn i noticed (to be honest i did sometimes earlier) an uncontrovertible problem: Concentrated fire is the winning card, always!
U can tank like a bison, with 85% resist in every dmg type and u can repair like a master healer but when u get locked by 10 bs u r insta popped!
Now, i think that this is a great strategy for ship destroing but waste the gameplay.
My simpel idea is:
Make a DEFINITE number of ships able to lock an opponent depending on the opponent "combat power".
Exemple:
1 frigade should be locked by 2-3 ships
1 AS by 3-4 ships
1 cruiser 3-4 ships
1 bc 4-5 ships
1 HAC 4-5 ships
1 bs 5-6 ships
1 carrier 8-10
1 dread 10-14
1 titan 16-20
This would change the squad strategy and make the game more enjoyable, the fights will last longer and will result more tactical!
Now the fights r like this:
Primary: CEPPADEMINCHIA
Secondary: MARO23
Tert: 3l33t
---
Primary MARO23
Secondary 3l33t
Tert Unluckyguy
---
Primary 3l33t
Secondary Unluckyguy
Tert Mymom
.... where is the tactic!?
At least when u r targeted u can do a differerent thing that shootin the primary, u can try to warp away....but this results impossible in most cases.
If you know that only 5-6 ships can target an opponent then your team has to switch into different squads with different objectives.
Exemple:
team1 25 Bs
Team2 5 bs
Team1 can switch into 5 squads and target one opponent each, or something like this...
I hope that this thread is comprehensible, my engl is still bad :)
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.01 07:52:00 -
[2]
No. This isnt a problem. This will be a problem if you put limited lockings.
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
EvE is ecstatically malevolent.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.06.01 07:59:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Bistekkona
Make a DEFINITE number of ships able to lock an opponent depending on the opponent "combat power".
Extremely exploitable, and that's not even mentioning such things as reality illusion breakers (while game balance > RL is true, illusion > game balance is even more important) nor, in fact, game balance breakers.
New sig coming soonÖ
In the next (content) patch Information Warfare will be nerfed. How sad, it wasn't even useful to begin with. |
Bistekkona
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Posted - 2006.06.01 08:03:00 -
[4]
...?
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.01 08:05:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Bistekkona
...?
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
EvE is ecstatically malevolent.
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Backdoor Bandit
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Posted - 2006.06.01 08:06:00 -
[6]
Why do people keep picking up on basic game mechanics and flagging them up as 'Problems' that need 'Fixing'.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.01 08:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Backdoor Bandit
Why do people keep picking up on basic game mechanics and flagging them up as 'Problems' that need 'Fixing'.
Well, OP is an 
----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT!
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
EvE is ecstatically malevolent.
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Serj Darek
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Posted - 2006.06.01 08:09:00 -
[8]
If it was a defined number, then exploiting that would be have your m8:s lock your ship, then your invulnerable from targeting by other enemy ships. Not so clever.
Fix the Typhoon description! 3 years in the making!
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Bistekkona
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Posted - 2006.06.01 08:11:00 -
[9]
simple, mates lock will not count in the lockin ammounts.....
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.06.01 08:12:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Bistekkona
...?
Ok, let me put it like this:
4-5 carriers would be INVULNERABLE. Not very hard to kill, but absolutely invulnerable. Easily able to tank each other indef. Although they can be jammed, just think about how the situation would be with Motherships, Titans or Dreads who can't be jammed?
30 dreads attacking a POS. Sure, everyone lock 3-4 other of your own.
As for game balance. Well, let's just say this: the tacklers are necessary, but will severely limit the damage potential of the fleet.
Oh, and tactics? It's discipline. The reason old-G, BoB, MC, and just about any other competent PvP organization obliterates resistance is discipline. Any half-arsed PvP core will scatter fire, killing 2-3 BShips in the same time as a skilled fleet with a skilled commander kills 20-30 BShips.
I do NOT want fights in EVE to start catering to the mindless mobs, where fleet commander simply warps fleet in and say "fire at whatever! YAAAHOOO!", which is what just about any idea for limiting focus fire effectivness reduces fights to.
New sig coming soonÖ
In the next (content) patch Information Warfare will be nerfed. How sad, it wasn't even useful to begin with. |
Bistekkona
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Posted - 2006.06.01 08:19:00 -
[11]
4-5 carriers invulnerables?
Why?
If u have similar ships to counter em u will pop em easily, think abt 2 dread on one carrier....can the carrier tank em? i dont think so...
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.06.01 08:22:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Bistekkona
4-5 carriers invulnerables?
Why?
If u have similar ships to counter em u will pop em easily, think abt 2 dread on one carrier....can the carrier tank em? i dont think so...
Yes it can, since it's got 3-4 other carriers remote tanking it. It can tank more than 2 dreads that way.
Also, I don't think the devs can easily write code that differentiate friendly targets from enemy targets. And you can't make these sort of changes without taking a look at all situations and elminating all exploits.
Me, I can make ANY ship invulnerable in Empire wars. Yay for NPC corp alts!
New sig coming soonÖ
In the next (content) patch Information Warfare will be nerfed. How sad, it wasn't even useful to begin with. |
Crux Australis
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Posted - 2006.06.01 08:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Bistekkona
Primary: CEPPADEMINCHIA
Non facciamoci riconoscere eh?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Originally by: Frezik
Detaurus isn't a person. It's a state of mind.
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Bistekkona
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Posted - 2006.06.01 08:31:00 -
[14]
:)
Ok, ok....it only was an idea.
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Ather Ialeas
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Posted - 2006.06.01 08:34:00 -
[15]
What I find to be the problem with concentrated fire is that usually it seems to be done in the overkill way. I mean seriously, 20bs concentrating their fire on just about anything spells instapop to me no matter what the target is doing making those "omg we have 160 ppl in gang, our blob pwnz!" actually a very dumb and inefficient way to play.
So if any limit should be introduced to limit concentrated fire, it should be some sort of gang size limit (like 20 bs or so, could be some sort of point system based on ships' size) just to force Fleet Commanders to favor something else besides blobbing
And to OP...afaik 16-20 wtfpwning shooter won't take a titan down.
________________________________________________
My signature exploded :/ |
Flaming sambuka
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Posted - 2006.06.01 09:22:00 -
[16]
Awww did someone get blobbed?
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Philip Sterling
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Posted - 2006.06.01 09:29:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Backdoor Bandit
Why do people keep picking up on basic game mechanics and flagging them up as 'Problems' that need 'Fixing'.
yuup, i reckon the forum mods should just lock these sorts of threads
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JafoPBCFR
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Posted - 2006.06.01 09:55:00 -
[18]
Um so If Im locked By 10 BS i shouldnt be insta Killed? Have togo No on this one. Makes no sense to me. Almost dang near idiotic. I dont think theres any Game out there that has this sort of a limitation. Although sounds alot like Saber Block of a Game that nolonger has meaning or content.
The SIg They said suddenly I couldnt have |
ApollyN
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Posted - 2006.06.01 10:09:00 -
[19]
While damage from ship class to ship class doesnt scale up quite right (see some of the threads about titan survivability vs dreads) it seems people have a problem being instapopped but surely if you jump into a hostile system and then cruise into a 20 man camp youd expect to be popped? I know I would.
Its not a broken mechanic to kill stuff fast. Blobs are the most effective way of taking and holding territory, If everyone flew around in small groups due to reduced locking then there would be no way of effectively locking down systems and so territory would be extremly frustrating to hold or take as you need to chase down small groups with small groups rather than being able bring your fleet to bear on them. Personally I find blob wars go on for ages anyway, making such a process even more frustrating and slow is not my idea of fun.
It would also mean tacklers would need mega jam strength to hold anyone with WCS. Maybe this is a secret conspiracy from the ancient cult of the Warp Core Stabilists attempting to make it even easier for them to run away??
Fleet war is fine, blobs move slowly cos everyone has to align, if you get caught its bad luck or you did something a bit silly. Only thing that can be done is lag reduction on warp ins.
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Paigan
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Posted - 2006.06.01 10:24:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Paigan on 01/06/2006 10:26:37
Focussed fire is a basic element of (tactical) war games.
This is what it's all about, concentrating and organising a team.
So this is SUPPOSED to be the winning card (in principle)
If you don't like this principle, you may have to switch to sim city :-/.
The problem i see in eve is more that it's realtime instead of round-based (where you could react properly to being focussed) and that it's somehow spoiled by lag.
But round based games don't look sexy enough for average people. And lag has technical reasons.
So we simply have to live with the fact that you can be insta popped without having a chance to react.
--
This game is still in beta stage |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.01 10:33:00 -
[21]
CCP should implement gang target calling like in Guildwars. Ctrl + Tab. Target gets highlighted. Gang Alt + Tab to target unlucky target. Makes job of target calling primary easier.
Buffers and debuffers are always victims to primaries. EvE is no different. Logistics and EWAR are always first to pop. 
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
EvE is ecstatically malevolent.
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2006.06.01 10:43:00 -
[22]
One way to make it happen is to remove most of the ammo in this game. Make two or three types with ranges of -50%, -25% and 0%. This means that your optimal range of your weapons actully MATTERS and you have to position yourself right. No more your whole fleet has the target in range! This will encourage actully moving and splitting up your fleet.
Another option is to introduce Gangs modules for Carriers. Aegis Shield support or something. Makes a sphere of 20km around the Carrier and creates a forcefield for anything inside. Adds resistance and HP or make it so that all targets share the damage? like one shot do 1000 damage / 10 is 100 damage per ship.
Fixing amount of lockable targets will not fix it.
13 -_- |
Fredbob
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Posted - 2006.06.01 10:44:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
CCP should implement gang target calling like in Guildwars. Ctrl + Tab. Target gets highlighted. Gang Alt + Tab to target unlucky target. Makes job of target calling primary easier.
Actually I think it's good that an organised group with teamspeak or vent will have to shout pri/sec/ter and the gang must react swiftly. With the above system fleet fights would be alt+tab+F1~F8, rinse repeat with no manual skill. Ignoring the fact that alt+tab will minimise Eve and change to another application :P, it's not as skill based as finding the target in your overview using whatever filter, locking, firing, while looking for the next one and concentrating on your FC's calls.
Fleet fights may not be amazingly fun, but a command to target the FC's target would dumb it down too far 
___________
~Fredbob~
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Heikki
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Posted - 2006.06.01 11:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Bistekkona
number of ships able to lock an opponent depending
As pointed out, about any method related to locking limits is too abusable; code can't tell if the lock is for hostile purposes or not.
Personally some kind of stacking penalty on received damage does sound tempting; it wouldn't remove instapopping of lone ships, but would make fleet tactics a bit more diverse and challenging.
Goal would be to reduce the effectiviness of multiple ships shooting at same target, while not affecting damage output of a lone ship. Some exceptions might have to done for gangs of small ships attacking bigger ship.
Might not be that easy to implement; actual damage would take effect only after the game figures how many ships did shoot at the target.
For example:
- For each period of 5 secs, target remembers which ships have shot at it.
- Ships are sorted in the order of damage they've inflicted
- Stacking penalty is applied, the first ship receiving no penalty
- At the time of a shot, only the part that is guaranteed to go through stacking is applied. Rest are applied at the end of the period.
-Lasse
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Selak Zorander
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:02:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas
...
And to OP...afaik 16-20 wtfpwning shooter won't take a titan down.
You should find the math that DigitalCommunist did (i think it was DC). 20 gank rigged BS could WTFPWN a titan in 30 seconds. I think the math was done on a titan running 2 capital armor reps and 70+ resistance across the board. (may have been 80% across).
the only capital ship that can stand up to a large number of BS is a dreadnaught in siege mode. It can tank close to 30 BS while in siege. Every think else has its tank broken by no more than 12 to 15 BS.
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:06:00 -
[26]
I agree it would make game way more interesting, skills would be more important, it would actually allow tactics that include more than just sorting overview by something and working your way down or searching targets on it...
Die, die, die. |
Bistekkona
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:15:00 -
[27]
Originally by: LUKEC
I agree it would make game way more interesting, skills would be more important, it would actually allow tactics that include more than just sorting overview by something and working your way down or searching targets on it...
:) yupp 
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Hinik
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:21:00 -
[28]
I'm with Ithildin on this, you get 4 or 5 alts in space and all of a sudden they lock all your friendly ships and you've become invulnerable... that's considering the code will differentiate between friendly and hostile locking, it won't. so all you have to do is lock all your friends and none of your enemies can target you. fantastic idea.
You need a new sig boyo! - Xorus |
Noriath
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:21:00 -
[29]
This idea is way too exploitable to acctually work, because there can be no absoloute system to make sure that the number of locks on you is from acctual enemies.
Regardless, concentrated fire makes this game stupid. There is no point to a large selection of specialty ships when your survivability within a larger battle depends only on wether or not you get called target, and the only thing worth having fitted because of that is pure damage output.
That's just not a good system and kicks all of eves complexity to the curb as soon as enough pilots are thinking about killing the same enemy.
In my opinion the best ways to adress this issue is blob-busting and super hardening through capital ships.
Blob-busting being AoE weapons that make it a really stupid idea to stack all your ships in one tight little group, superhardening being the ability to make single ships nearly invoulnerble if they get targeted, so you have to target more people.
Of course all of this stands and falls with capital ships ability to withstand a concentrated barrage, which is an issue that has yet to be resolved.
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Shandling
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:23:00 -
[30]
While I agree force in numbers should remain a powerful strategy (many wars have been won by attrition) it kind of makes fleet battles... well... boring. Not talking about losing ships, I mean you don't fly what you can't afford ;) so go to a fleet battle expecting to lose what you're flying.
A massive battle of scattered fire (not RANDOM, simply scattered) would last longer, require more strategy than calling a target and saying 'fire!', and would definately make fleet battles seem a lot more epic.
Battleships firing back and forth with frigates/interceptors and cruisers dodging back and forth, blending the lines of combat, the carriers/titans perhaps with the smaller ships forming defensive perimiters to pick off incoming fighters. Think of the old Wing Commander games where two gigantic motherships/carriers broadsided each other, with dozens and dozens of smaller ships going back and forth between the two. Ah well, that's just my 'dream' for Eve fleet combat... but to each their own.
Because of the fashion fleet battles are fought now, I kind of steer away from them. Small group or solo combat is much more exciting than 'Target X - Fire!' times 30.
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