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Keith Planck
Rolled Out
784
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Posted - 2014.05.22 03:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
When you look at a ships engagement range, autocannons have the worst projection out of all the guns. If an autocannon starts to out damage lasers at 30kms, it doesn't matter if both autocannons and the thing your comparing them too are doing 1/5 of their dps, both guns will be useless at that range. aka Pony Lord Planck |
Angsty Teenager
Broski North Black Legion.
412
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Posted - 2014.05.22 04:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Keith Planck wrote:When you look at a ships engagement range, autocannons have the worst projection out of all the guns. If an autocannon starts to out damage lasers at 30kms, it doesn't matter if both autocannons and the thing your comparing them too are doing 1/5 of their dps, both guns will be useless at that range.
Who cares |
Chessur
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
345
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Posted - 2014.05.22 04:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Keith Planck wrote:When you look at a ships engagement range, autocannons have the worst projection out of all the guns. If an autocannon starts to out damage lasers at 30kms, it doesn't matter if both autocannons and the thing your comparing them too are doing 1/5 of their dps, both guns will be useless at that range.
Yep known fact. Even though minny ships are touted as being the quintessential kiting ships, they have in fact only 1 maybe 2 ships that can actually engage past 20+K.
Pretty sad. I spoke with Fozzie and Rise about this at fanfest 2014, however they told me at the round table that they think autos are in a fine place, and are not going to be subject to any new changes. |
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Protean Concept
138
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Posted - 2014.05.22 05:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
Better tracking than lasers, capless, selectable damage, and (pretty sure) blasters are still the worst when it comes to projection
-Bl+¦d
http://bloodytravels.blogspot.com/ -á-- My travels through space. |
Taoist Dragon
Caldari Provisions
978
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Posted - 2014.05.22 05:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
So you can't use your short ranged weapons to blap people at long range.
Swap to Arties then. Then you get to blap all the things! That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Luwc
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
133
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Posted - 2014.05.22 06:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
So much bullsh1et I actually feel like crying. http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif |
Gregor Parud
521
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Posted - 2014.05.22 06:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
It's funny how most replies show an alarming lack of understanding. Yes, AC (and arty for that matter) are now easily the worst at projecting dps. Everything else got buffed (weapons and ships), projectiles and Minnie ships stayed the same. Result is that right now they're not at all good at kiting regardless of the projectile weapon type. The old "Minnie for PVP" has turned into "uuuhm, some ships are still good... I think".
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Dato Koppla
Elite Guards
550
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Posted - 2014.05.22 06:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
The fact that ACs used to have great projection as well as the fastest ships is what made them broken in the first place. ACs still have better projection than blasters, as well as all the other properties that made them great (low fitting, selectable damage type, capless). Pulses have always had the best projection of the short range guns so thats no surprise. Overall projectiles are definitely less powerful than they once were, but saying theyre horrible is an exaggeration. |
Gregor Parud
523
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Posted - 2014.05.22 07:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote:The fact that ACs used to have great projection as well as the fastest ships is what made them broken in the first place. ACs still have better projection than blasters, as well as all the other properties that made them great (low fitting, selectable damage type, capless). Pulses have always had the best projection of the short range guns so thats no surprise. Overall projectiles are definitely less powerful than they once were, but saying theyre horrible is an exaggeration.
They do not have better projection than lasers, not even slightly, and while they might have better projection than blasters (duh) rails got buffed to being almost overpowered. Right now the WORST race to choose for kiting of any kind is Minnie, just because there's 1 or 2 ships that can still make it work doesn't mean that they're ok on the whole.
Go and try make a frigate using projectiles that does 100 dps @~20km (a feat easily done by lasers and hybrids), you'll find that it won't work without going silly.
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Keith Planck
Rolled Out
784
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Posted - 2014.05.22 07:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote:The fact that ACs used to have great projection as well as the fastest ships is what made them broken in the first place. ACs still have better projection than blasters, as well as all the other properties that made them great (low fitting, selectable damage type, capless). Pulses have always had the best projection of the short range guns so thats no surprise. Overall projectiles are definitely less powerful than they once were, but saying theyre horrible is an exaggeration.
auto cannons DON'T have better projection then blasters, that's the ******* problem, when the gallente ships do 1000 dps at 0, and minmitar ships do 800 dps at 0, and the threshold where minmitar starts out damaging gallante ships is 30kms (where both ships do 200 dps), then you dont change the the ship fits, you change your tactics
this kind of "projection" is completely worthless in the meta, when your main dps ships are doing 20% of the damage they are supposed to do, you use a different weapon system, or fly your ships differently
even in PvE where you build ships specifically to counter ranges and velocities, autocannons are out-shined by lasers who have better application at optimal, and better fitting options on their ships that allow application mods like target painters and tracking computers.
It's the main reason why ham legions are the meta in wormholes right now, auto cannons have less projection and less dps then EVERY other weapon system, the only perk they have is tracking, which if you run numbers against target ships in the meta, amounts to jack ****, as a medium ship with 425mm applies almost the same % of dps against variable targets as lasers or blasters do. aka Pony Lord Planck |
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Danny John-Peter
Snuff Box
428
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Posted - 2014.05.22 08:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
Medium ACs are pretty much the worst weapon system in the game now, relegating falloff bonused Minmatar hulls to being, well, **** frankly.
This isn't really news its just every ****** with an opinion thinks its 2007 and Vagas are still OP somehow so its never getting fixed. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
989
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Posted - 2014.05.22 08:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
Keith Planck wrote:autocannons have worse projection then blasters at all applicable ranges on any ships that isnt specifically given a range and damage bonus.
its a good thing you aren't feeding all that capacitor into your guns and can run that prop mod all day then eh ?
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Keith Planck
Rolled Out
784
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Posted - 2014.05.22 08:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tauranon wrote:Keith Planck wrote:autocannons have worse projection then blasters at all applicable ranges on any ships that isnt specifically given a range and damage bonus. its a good thing you aren't feeding all that capacitor into your guns and can run that prop mod all day then eh ?
I MEAN navy omens can run their lasers and prop mod all day
and so can throaxes and so can every other laser and blaster boat that get a huge bonus to base cap recharge equal to the cap usage of guns... That being said, this isn't about the vagabond, the vagabond has insane role and ship bonuses, along with insane hull stats that make it op.
Literally every other medium autocannon ship in the game isn't as lucky as the vagabond. aka Pony Lord Planck |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
597
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Posted - 2014.05.22 09:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
When a nag pounds more damage into another capital than a moros with ~15% more paper damage, I blame selectable damagetype GÖÑ "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
597
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Posted - 2014.05.22 09:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Keith Planck wrote: I MEAN navy omens can run their lasers and prop mod all day
and so can throaxes [...]
so can every other laser and blaster boat that get a huge bonus to base cap recharge equal to the cap usage of guns... That being said, this isn't about the vagabond, the vagabond has insane role and ship bonuses, along with insane hull stats that make it op.
Literally every other medium autocannon ship in the game isn't as lucky as the vagabond.
This is just wrong. A NOmen without a CB runs it's stuff for about a minute and a half max. A Thorax only activates his invuln if it's being shot at due to low capacitor - and a railrax needs a CB to stay up and running. Literally every other T1 cruiser needs a cap booster for a prolonged engagement. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
70
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Posted - 2014.05.22 10:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:Medium ACs are pretty much the worst weapon system in the game now, relegating falloff bonused Minmatar hulls to being, well, **** frankly.
I see someone hasn't fired a heavy missile. |
Gregor Parud
523
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Posted - 2014.05.22 10:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
Keith Planck wrote:Tauranon wrote:Keith Planck wrote:autocannons have worse projection then blasters at all applicable ranges on any ships that isnt specifically given a range and damage bonus. its a good thing you aren't feeding all that capacitor into your guns and can run that prop mod all day then eh ? I MEAN navy omens can run their lasers and prop mod all day
and so can throaxes and so can every other laser and blaster boat that get a huge bonus to base cap recharge equal to the cap usage of guns... That being said, this isn't about the vagabond, the vagabond has insane role and ship bonuses, along with insane hull stats that make it op. Literally every other medium autocannon ship in the game isn't as lucky as the vagabond.
Stop lying.
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Keith Planck
Rolled Out
784
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Posted - 2014.05.22 10:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
Not talking about the Nag, that has such insane tank that it could do half the dps it does now and would be the dread of choice.
Not talking about the Vaga, that has insane class/built in bonuses that make the best point range kiter in the game.
I'm talking about literally every other ship in the game that uses autocannons.
Hell, in pve heavy missiles still have the "sacrificing dps for being able to project against any ship at all applicable ranges" trade off. Autocannons just suck at everything. aka Pony Lord Planck |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
863
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Posted - 2014.05.22 11:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
Keith Planck wrote:When you look at a ships engagement range, autocannons have the worst projection out of all the guns. If an autocannon starts to out damage lasers at 30kms, it doesn't matter if both autocannons and the thing your comparing them too are doing 1/5 of their dps, both guns will be useless at that range.
Was there a AC nerf or is it " I'm upset AC aren't the same as other turrets" day? I know some aren't happy Minmatar isn't Winmatar anymore but that had to happen sooner or later. My plain T2 fit Hurricane gets 635 DPS @ 1.7 / 16 km. That's not overloaded, no implants and without drones.
I do agree that they over nerfed tracking enhancers but this is typical CCP. Nerf it till it's garbage so when they "fix" it by giving back half it's usefulness everyone is jumping for joy!
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Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Cruis3r's Cr3w Inc. Constructive. Criticism.
101
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Posted - 2014.05.22 11:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Keith Planck wrote:Tauranon wrote:Keith Planck wrote:autocannons have worse projection then blasters at all applicable ranges on any ships that isnt specifically given a range and damage bonus. its a good thing you aren't feeding all that capacitor into your guns and can run that prop mod all day then eh ? I MEAN navy omens can run their lasers and prop mod all day
and so can throaxes and so can every other laser and blaster boat that get a huge bonus to base cap recharge equal to the cap usage of guns... That being said, this isn't about the vagabond, the vagabond has insane role and ship bonuses, along with insane hull stats that make it op. Literally every other medium autocannon ship in the game isn't as lucky as the vagabond. Stop lying.
now who is lying, i have flown all ships but the navy omen. AC r still a pretty neat weapon system. For examply my blaster rax has either 3 minutes or 1minute 20 cap and with cap gone u dont have anything to shoot, ac in my case stabber is still pretty fast, has a better range than a blaster rax and is faster. The only weapon system i see out of balance is the light artilleries currently. |
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Gregor Parud
524
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Posted - 2014.05.22 11:34:00 -
[21] - Quote
IIshira wrote:Keith Planck wrote:When you look at a ships engagement range, autocannons have the worst projection out of all the guns. If an autocannon starts to out damage lasers at 30kms, it doesn't matter if both autocannons and the thing your comparing them too are doing 1/5 of their dps, both guns will be useless at that range. Was there a AC nerf or is it " I'm upset AC aren't the same as other turrets" day? I know some aren't happy Minmatar isn't Winmatar anymore but that had to happen sooner or later. My plain T2 fit Hurricane gets 635 DPS @ 1.7 / 16 km. That's not overloaded, no implants and without drones. I do agree that they over nerfed tracking enhancers but this is typical CCP. Nerf it till it's garbage so when they "fix" it by giving back half it's usefulness everyone is jumping for joy!
The TE nerf to falloff bonuses (from a while back) hit projectiles hard, and then rebalancing happened pretty much based on people's perception of projectiles (how they were pre TE nerf) rather than actual perormance, and then boosted other weapon systems on top of that.
Right now projectiles ARE under performing because they can't project as well as other weapon systems while lasers and hybrids got buffed (damage, tracking, fitting etc). The only thing that remains is alpha which is funky and all that but that's just one weapon type and just one strategy. Sure, they have no cap use and have damage type selection but that doesn't make up for the lacklustre dps projection. |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
235
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Posted - 2014.05.22 13:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/pJ5oaXF.jpg
Here is the current situation. This is all SR guns with t2 long range ammo. Scorch is king and that's quite expected. Still, one would expect AC's to be slightly better at projection (being a PROJECTile weapon).
I've stopped using barrage outside falloff bonused ships. Even on falloff bonused ships it is meh. Note that to project damage with barrage you are losing the damage selectivity which is one of the "perks" that comes with using AC's
Also Vaga is no longer the pvp king it was. I've converted mine to a PvE ship and it is gathering dust at someplace.
We have to adapt and accept the AC's as a brawl range weapon with no cap usage and selectable dmg type. For actual kite range damage projection, we have missile ships now. |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
619
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Posted - 2014.05.22 13:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
Deerin wrote:Still, one would expect AC's to be slightly better at projection (being a PROJECTile weapon).
Projectile weapons have nothing to do with projection - their name simply implies the use of actual physical slugs (projectiles) - as opposed to energy weapons, which have no physical slug.
Imo atm the AC damage might be a bit too low across the board, but not in any particular field. Parud above came the closest - TE nerf hit them hard - some would say a bit too hard. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
71
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Posted - 2014.05.22 13:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
Deerin wrote:http://i.imgur.com/pJ5oaXF.jpg
Here is the current situation. This is all SR guns with t2 long range ammo. Scorch is king and that's quite expected. Still, one would expect AC's to be slightly better at projection (being a PROJECTile weapon).
I've stopped using barrage outside falloff bonused ships. Even on falloff bonused ships it is meh. Note that to project damage with barrage you are losing the damage selectivity which is one of the "perks" that comes with using AC's
Also Vaga is no longer the pvp king it was. I've converted mine to a PvE ship and it is gathering dust at someplace.
We have to adapt and accept the AC's as a brawl range weapon with no cap usage and selectable dmg type. For actual kite range damage projection, we have missile ships now.
Add a HML ship to your chart, you'll be horrified. |
Jon Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
129
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Posted - 2014.05.22 16:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
Medium autocannons are not in a good place right now.
Autos are supposed to be king of falloff and kiting. Problem is, autos can't project damage worth **** and even at 0km auto damage is in and of itself ****.
Falloff: The Stabber get's 10% falloff per level. Fitting 220s and using RF/EMP/Fusion/PP, it still takes three TEs (out of four low slots) to get range to 1.71km + 25.9km, just past point range. And even then, you're in deep falloff and damage is terrible. You can use Barrage, but then you're locked into a specific damage type (and isn't that the main point people bring up to say autos are balanced?) and barrage has terrible damage to begin with.
Damage: The Rupture is double damage bonused (5% to both damage and RoF per level). Fitting 425s, using Hail (for giggles) and fitting three gyros, it's gun dps is at a rather meager 443. And this is supposed to be a brawler.
- - - - - - - - - - -
I'm not saying Minmatar are terrible, they are exclusively the only race I fly, and even the two boats above can win and do cool things if you fit really creatively and fly well, but there's really no denying medium autos are the bottom of the bucket at the moment. |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
235
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Posted - 2014.05.22 17:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Deerin wrote:http://i.imgur.com/pJ5oaXF.jpg Add a HML ship to your chart, you'll be horrified.
Yea I'm horrified that you are suggesting comparing LR weapon platform with SR weapon platform.
The thing is: Heavy Missiles raw damage potential using Fury is quite high. Applying it to moving cruiser size targets, is another story though.
HAM's are better, but still need someone/something to web/paint the enemy.
Anyway Projectile weapon Projecting was a small joke, which got lost in translation I assume. I made my peace with ac's. Only using them for brawling purposes. Would love to have more falloff....but you can't hae everything |
korrey
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
9
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Posted - 2014.05.22 19:39:00 -
[27] - Quote
Jon Joringer wrote:Medium autocannons are not in a good place right now.
Autos are supposed to be king of falloff and kiting. Problem is, autos can't project damage worth **** and even at 0km auto damage is in and of itself ****.
Falloff: The Stabber get's 10% falloff per level. Fitting 220s and using RF/EMP/Fusion/PP, it still takes three TEs (out of four low slots) to get range to 1.71km + 25.9km, just past point range. And even then, you're in deep falloff and damage is terrible. You can use Barrage, but then you're locked into a specific damage type (and isn't that the main point people bring up to say autos are balanced?) and barrage has terrible damage to begin with.
Damage: The Rupture is double damage bonused (5% to both damage and RoF per level). Fitting 425s, using Hail (for giggles) and fitting three gyros, it's gun dps is at a rather meager 443. And this is supposed to be a brawler.
- - - - - - - - - - -
I'm not saying Minmatar are terrible, they are exclusively the only race I fly, and even the two boats above can win and do cool things if you fit really creatively and fly well, but there's really no denying medium autos are the bottom of the bucket at the moment.
What should the damage of a Rupture with 425's be then? 550? 600? The Omen with Heavy Pulses and Conflag will post about 480-500dps. Of course you'll cap out faster than you can say "Pax Amarria".
Not saying AC's don't need to be looked at, just wanted to clarify that 400-500 DPS is what most T1 Attack cruisers put out, not counting blaster boats (Moa, Thorax). Maller puts out 350 DPS with a sizeable tank, and it's a brawler. It puts out ~400 DPS with a similar tank to a Rupture, slightly higher due to resists. But again, thats with Conflag which is not efficient in 4 out of 5 situations.
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Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Cruis3r's Cr3w Inc. Constructive. Criticism.
101
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Posted - 2014.05.22 20:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
ok i made me a damage graph, and i think the ac are in a good place for their versatility and caplessness.
name says tank and guns, all fitted with t2 lr ammo |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3950
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Posted - 2014.05.22 20:29:00 -
[29] - Quote
Chessur wrote:Keith Planck wrote:When you look at a ships engagement range, autocannons have the worst projection out of all the guns. If an autocannon starts to out damage lasers at 30kms, it doesn't matter if both autocannons and the thing your comparing them too are doing 1/5 of their dps, both guns will be useless at that range. Yep known fact. Even though minny ships are touted as being the quintessential kiting ships, they have in fact only 1 maybe 2 ships that can actually engage past 20+K. Pretty sad. I spoke with Fozzie and Rise about this at fanfest 2014, however they told me at the round table that they think autos are in a fine place, and are not going to be subject to any new changes.
Perhaps that's because AC's benefit from capless usage, damage selection, and are generally utilized on the fastest hulls.
I think some tweaks to AC's aren't unreasonable, but I think they aren't in some unusable state. |
Jon Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
129
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Posted - 2014.05.22 20:38:00 -
[30] - Quote
korrey wrote:
What should the damage of a Rupture with 425's be then? 550? 600? The Omen with Heavy Pulses and Conflag will post about 480-500dps. Of course you'll cap out faster than you can say "Pax Amarria".
Not saying AC's don't need to be looked at, just wanted to clarify that 400-500 DPS is what most T1 Attack cruisers put out, not counting blaster boats (Moa, Thorax). Maller puts out 350 DPS with a sizeable tank, and it's a brawler. It puts out ~400 DPS with a similar tank to a Rupture, slightly higher due to resists. But again, thats with Conflag which is not efficient in 4 out of 5 situations.
You're right. Let me take a step back and say I don't actually think the dps a Rupture can achieve is that bad, and it is on par with laser boats. My real issue is with the huge gap between this level of dps, and the level of dps that almost anything with blasters brings to the table. And in the current meta, where everyone and their mother flies a blaster boat, you can't just not count them when discussing medium weapons platforms.
Also, the dps on that Rupture is not a figure that you could really attain and still maintain an effective brawling fit. You'd have to downgrade to 220s and one or two gyros in order to fit a passable tank, which would lower the dps to 320-370 (again with Hail, which is about as impractical as Conflag is). |
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