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OllieNorth
R-K Industries Sexy Alliance
13
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Posted - 2011.11.17 13:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
I was sitting here looking through the Blue Ice threads, and a thought occured to me.
If they actually did kill all the bots, what would happen?
We all know how mind-numbingly boring and unenjoyable ice mining is, that's why only bots do it. So if they were able to crack down on those bots, what would take up the slack? With POS fuel being as cheap as it is, mainly due to the bots that keep actual humans out of the ice game, everyone and their parapalegic sister has their own POS.
Since there are these thousands of POSes being run on cheap bot-made fuel, we have a lot of people inventing and driving T2 prices down. As a result, people are using T2 as throwaway PVP ships since they are so cheap.
If those research POSes are too expensive to run due to pricy ice, T2 prices go up.
So I find myself wondering, is CCP really trying to kill the ice bots? Or do they tolerate them because they keep the EVE economy running in its current state?
TL;DR CCP likes bots. |

Jak'rat
Lion Investments
5
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Posted - 2011.11.17 14:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Then the large number of REAL people who mine ice will giggle as they sell off their stockpiles. Ice mining + watching TV or doing book-work is a relatively simple and safe way of trickling ISK into your wallet whilst actually doing something else. "Full turret rack all grouped, gyro's, rigs - that's not a ship, it's a flying shotgun..." |

OllieNorth
R-K Industries Sexy Alliance
13
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Posted - 2011.11.17 14:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yes, you would sell off your stockpile, but there is no way the actual humans can take up the slack for all of the bots. So despite that initial stockpile selloff, I have trouble seeing the human miners be able to maintain supply even close to the current level. |

Odalisque Drain
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.11.17 14:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
I can't help but replace "bot" with "immigrant", "ice" with "produce" and "mining" with "agriculture" in the OP.
Demand can go down, FCs might think twice before hotdropping when they could fly the long way. POSes would become far more expensive and important.
Supply can go up, as suddenly ice mining is FAR more lucrative for a begining player. In my day I mined Kernite for my first battleship and liked it.
Kill the Mexic.. er... bots. I mean bots. Kill them all. |

Tekota
The Freighter Factory
46
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Posted - 2011.11.17 15:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'd guess much the same as happened when Unholy Rage took place last. The individual markets affected would change according to changes in bot preferences over the last couple of years.
Whilst I'd certainly wish for speedier and more complete elimination of botting (something which, realistically is always going to be an unachievable target) I don't think I've enough tin foil just yet to conclude that CCP likes bots. |

egola
NSFW federation
20
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Posted - 2011.11.17 15:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Odalisque Drain wrote:I can't help but replace "bot" with "immigrant", "ice" with "produce" and "mining" with "agriculture" in the OP.
Demand can go down, FCs might think twice before hotdropping when they could fly the long way. POSes would become far more expensive and important.javascript:__doPostBack('forum$ctl00$PostReply','')
Supply can go up, as suddenly ice mining is FAR more lucrative for a begining player. In my day I mined Kernite for my first battleship and liked it.
Kill the Mexic.. er... bots. I mean bots. Kill them all. yes cause this is colonial AMER-KA with no mechanized agricultural equipment. if they be outlawed, we just need to pick up the slack with mo machines. also strictly speaking theres no real reason we should even bother with agriculture anymore its filled with subsidies that its actually BAD for the market. |

Red Teufel
Blackened Skies
14
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Posted - 2011.11.17 15:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
you would just see mining to be more lucrative. |

Elise DarkStar
DarkCorp Capital Group DarkCorp Imperium
143
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Posted - 2011.11.17 15:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
By your reasoning, why wouldn't they just remove ice as both a requirement and an object then? CCP can, within reason, tool the relative cost of anything, from t2 ships to pos ownership, to any relation they want.
The reason CCP is against botting is because it changes relative values outside of what CCP intends, leading to CCP to need to make constant adjustments or anticipate what bots will do with each change CCP makes, and then adjust accordingly.
Botting also leads to other sorts of eula violations like rmt and hacking by supporting a community of "criminality", insofar as violating eulas is "criminal". |

OllieNorth
R-K Industries Sexy Alliance
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 15:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
My point was more that CCP has reached a type of middle ground with the botters. As long as they stay out of RMT (or at least aren't too obvious about it) the bots lubricate the whole system. The few people who complain about not being able to ice mine profitably are far out-shouted by the people who like cheap POS/Cap fuel, and CCP gets to make more money off subs.
I am not saying that CCP condones it completely, I just think they have reached a point where they say "What's in it for us to go after the last few bots?" |

Elise DarkStar
DarkCorp Capital Group DarkCorp Imperium
143
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Posted - 2011.11.17 16:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
non-responsive
if there were no bots they could just quadruple ice yields and keep everyone "happy" as you suggest
in other words, and for the second time: no, you're wrong |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1652
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Posted - 2011.11.17 16:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
then there would be no bots for us to murder
very sad |

OllieNorth
R-K Industries Sexy Alliance
13
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Posted - 2011.11.17 16:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
Or they can leave it how it is and change nothing. What is their incentive? |

Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1652
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Posted - 2011.11.17 16:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
the incentive is the broken human beings who enjoy mining can't do it because it's botted to **** |

JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
48
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Posted - 2011.11.17 16:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
1. T2 BPOs from the lotto drive T2 prices not invention. 2. Speculating on actual positive game results from the ice interdiction is basically just feeding the trolls. Oh look there's one now... |

Khadmos
Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Fatal Ascension
12
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Posted - 2011.11.17 20:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
Making it harder to move mass quantities of ice/minerals from jita to ANYWHERE in the galaxy would make bots virtually useless. Sure, people could bot in null sec but it would only effect the local area, not the entire game.
Honestly, Nerf jump freighters, it'll change the game in fantastic ways. Suddenly players spread out everywhere instead of just mining in high sec to support all the 0.0 players that are too busy raking in billions of isk to bother mining their own minerals/ice. |

Kara Books
Hedion University Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2011.11.17 20:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
the market bots that bother people need to go FIRST.
I have seen a recent decline in market bots in Amarr, 1 was left but, its actually a really nice one, I heard some one jacked it up for 500M recently =) tee hee hee |

Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
141
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Posted - 2011.11.17 20:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
Khadmos wrote:Honestly, Nerf jump freighters, it'll change the game in fantastic ways. Suddenly players spread out everywhere instead of just mining in high sec to support all the 0.0 players that are too busy raking in billions of isk to bother mining their own minerals/ice.
Suddenly, nullsec powerblocks with JBs and the people and infrastructure to run freighter convoys every other days keep raking in bilions of ISK, and small alliances who can't will have to lose half of their combat pilots to dig rocks. Surely a great way to balance the game. |

Florestan Bronstein
The Waterworks
171
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 20:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
the ratting bots would pick up the slack and we'd all reship into faction fits 
might be interesting to read the reports in the serenity subforum on fhc - iirc T2 mods/ships over there are pretty expensive/uncommon due to large alliances monopolizing the supplies and producing for internal use only. |

Khadmos
Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Fatal Ascension
12
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Posted - 2011.11.17 20:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Khadmos wrote:Honestly, Nerf jump freighters, it'll change the game in fantastic ways. Suddenly players spread out everywhere instead of just mining in high sec to support all the 0.0 players that are too busy raking in billions of isk to bother mining their own minerals/ice. Suddenly, nullsec powerblocks with JBs and the people and infrastructure to run freighter convoys every other days keep raking in bilions of ISK, and small alliances who can't will have to lose half of their combat pilots to dig rocks. Surely a great way to balance the game.
That's why you also make 0.0 resources scalable like high sec (missions for everyone who wants one!, sorry only ## anomalies, hope you don't want too many people around) and have sov based structure HP scale based on system activity.
It's not about balancing the game, it's about encouraging 0.0 alliances to want people using their space. Currently it's detrimental for any 0.0 alliance to let anyone else use their space and they have no need for anyone that isn't helping with sov warfare.
Having people in your space mining and ratting should be preferable to running freighter convoys and it shouldn't be detrimental to the 0.0 sov holders (which it currently is). |

OllieNorth
R-K Industries Sexy Alliance
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 21:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
I have to agree, I think a good rental system and/or tiered POS access and such could go a long way. Maybe even programmable sentry guns around outposts. |
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
374
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 21:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:the market bots that bother people need to go FIRST.
I have seen a recent decline in market bots in Amarr, 1 was left but, its actually a really nice one, I heard some one jacked it up for 500M recently =) tee hee hee
Easiest way to do that is to charge a percentage of the order value in exchange for changing the price (0.01% or something). You'd see fewer, but more meaningful, price changes. |

Alain Kinsella
9
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Posted - 2011.11.20 11:32:00 -
[22] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Kara Books wrote:the market bots that bother people need to go FIRST.
I have seen a recent decline in market bots in Amarr, 1 was left but, its actually a really nice one, I heard some one jacked it up for 500M recently =) tee hee hee Easiest way to do that is to charge a percentage of the order value in exchange for changing the price (0.01% or something). You'd see fewer, but more meaningful, price changes.
At the very least that would encourage players to actively fight a market bot by exploiting their logic, and trying to make its trades unprofitable or less profitable.
Making the remote price data only accessible by API (and reversing their position on cache access) would help as well, but is far less likely.
I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.
Just more subtle.
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Grandial
Qubicle Productions
0
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Posted - 2011.11.20 11:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
JitaJane wrote:1. T2 BPOs from the lotto drive T2 prices not invention.
off topic but actually it's the other way around. before invention t2 prices were higher. t2 bpo owners had to adjust there margins down after invention kicked in. There are just a couple items that are not worth inventing now. (I might be wrong but this is how I percept this) But then again that's the case with any sort of production. There are always items to find that are not profitable.
to get a little bit on topic again: If bots were gone, indeed more people would start to mine as it would be more profitable (the change in price might not become so much). price in inventing and related stuff might go up ever so slightly, but margins would remain after a while. Profit margin is only relative to the amount of people producing. (and for a smaller amount to the people trading)
Therefore it would only affect:
- miners -> positively
- pvp'rs -> negatively
- pve'rs -> negatively
no change for manufacturers
|

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
374
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 13:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
Grandial wrote: off topic but actually it's the other way around. before invention t2 prices were higher. t2 bpo owners had to adjust there margins down after invention kicked in. There are just a couple items that are not worth inventing now. (I might be wrong but this is how I percept this)
Mostly true - the main advantage that T2 BPO owners have is that they don't have to include the cost of datacores into their jobs. For many T2 items, the cost of producing a BPC and spending datacores on the invention step can be anywhere from 20-40% (ballpark) of the cost of the item. The waste amounts for a -4 ME T2 BPC don't really factor in until you get into the much more expensive items (such as T2 hulls). Plus T2 BPO owners can just set up their production line to run for a week or two at a time, rather then having to run stuff off as single-unit jobs or 10-19 unit jobs (with no real control over timing).
(T2 mining crystals are a popular item to trot out in these debates. Most of them sell for far less then what it costs to invent. For a T2 veldspar crystal, it costs about 250k ISK to invent. They sell for less then 80k ISK.)
So, removing bots wouldn't have too much of an impact on T2 prices. Naturally, if the underlying T1 items went up in cost, so would the T2 items. Depending on the item that might be a lot or a little. |

Grandial
Qubicle Productions
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 16:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Grandial wrote: off topic but actually it's the other way around. before invention t2 prices were higher. t2 bpo owners had to adjust there margins down after invention kicked in. There are just a couple items that are not worth inventing now. (I might be wrong but this is how I percept this)
Mostly true - the main advantage that T2 BPO owners have is that they don't have to include the cost of datacores into their jobs. For many T2 items, the cost of producing a BPC and spending datacores on the invention step can be anywhere from 20-40% (ballpark) of the cost of the item. The waste amounts for a -4 ME T2 BPC don't really factor in until you get into the much more expensive items (such as T2 hulls). Plus T2 BPO owners can just set up their production line to run for a week or two at a time, rather then having to run stuff off as single-unit jobs or 10-19 unit jobs (with no real control over timing). (T2 mining crystals are a popular item to trot out in these debates. Most of them sell for far less then what it costs to invent. For a T2 veldspar crystal, it costs about 250k ISK to invent. They sell for less then 80k ISK.) So, removing bots wouldn't have too much of an impact on T2 prices. Naturally, if the underlying T1 items went up in cost, so would the T2 items. Depending on the item that might be a lot or a little.
I agree totally. My main point was there that it's not so much the bpo's who are correcting the profit, but more the amount of people manufacturing and items moved. I'm guessing there are more of those t2 bpo's out there then other ones where it stays profitable to invent |

Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 04:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
To OP:
Clear the game from all sort of bots. Markets will restabilise.
Simple. |

OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
14
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 16:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
I agree, mainly I was wondering in which way they will stabilize. That argument is as useful as if I asked you what would have been the difference if you were born two hundred years ago from your life today and you answer with "Well, I would have died eventually." |

bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
10
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 23:01:00 -
[28] - Quote
Problem is that there are more bots in null than empire..For some unknown reason they never touch them. |
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