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Jaedar Metron
0
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Posted - 2014.06.01 10:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
I just resubbed after an extended break (several years if I ignore a 2 week stay post Odyssey to try exploration) , and just trying to get a proper overview on things. More specifically, the ships I used to use.
I've got over 10 mill sp invested in missiles, but they've obviously changed a lot since I last played (2010). Apparently, HAM's gotten nerfed then buffed, HM's has gotten nerfed into uselessness, and RML's have.. er, not too sure. So how would I go about using missiles these days? What ships are good, which should I avoid?
Before I quit, I used the Drake a lot. I also used Caracals and Kestrels. I'd be interested to hear about both pve and pvp really. Fits would be nice as well, but not really necessary.
The Drake was basically my go to ship (So much so that even at 45m sp my BS skills are so low I can't even use t2 launchers) Apparently, HM Drakes are worthless now? Are HAM Drakes still good in pvp, or should I start relying on other ships? Hell, HM's in general, are they even worth using at all? I also see that the Tengu is much cheaper than it once was, should I be looking into getting one of those (then again, I hear whispers of incoming T3 changes, so I might want to hold off on that...?) What about the Cerberus and Nighthawk? Way back when both were sort of obsoleted by the Drake being that much cheaper and basically fulfilling the same role, is this still the case?
As for the Caracal, I didn't use it often, but when i did, I used RML's on it due to the Caracal being unable to fit anything else. Apparently, RML's turned into a godly FOTM weapon while I was gone (how the heck did that happen?), and were promptly beat with the nerfstick. I did see that other thread on RML's, so i won't be asking too much about them being useful or not, but I do wonder, can Caracals viably use HM's or HAM's in any way?
As for the Kestrel (and Condor), apparently rockets unsucked and are now awesome, so I guess that makes me happy. Yaay. Does this mean that the Hawk is awesome as well?
Also, rigs. Rigor rigs should be on every missile boat now, no?
I'm sorry for asking what must be a bit of a tired topic. I've tried googling and searching on the subject, but there have been so many changes it'r really hard to get a good overview on things, not to mention that much of the top results are extremely dated. Anyway, thanks in advance for any replies :)
Also, CCP why u nerfin mah missls.
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kurage87
EVE University Ivy League
33
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Posted - 2014.06.01 11:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
FML. Just did a point by point response and it got eaten.
Don't pvp in a Drake or any combat BC. Still good and solid pve runners.
All frig and dessy missile hulls are good -> fantastic.
RML are fine, just pay attention to clip size and reload timer. If you're alone, a single magazine is (very likely) not enough to kill a cruiser.
Tengu the least common PvP T3.
Nighthawk, see Drake.
Cerberus is good, but not that good. |
Gregor Parud
551
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Posted - 2014.06.01 11:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
- all the "unguided" missiles (rockets, HAM and torps) are now affected by the explosion radius skill and rigs, so that's a big massive buff right there.
- HML got rebalanced so their dps is in line with their range, and since they get massive range compared to other cruiser weapons they thus get low dps.
- missiles have issues applying their damage and because of that you want to use rigors (that's why the old regen fit LVL 3 drakes are terrible and you're better off using an active tanked fit with rigors).
- cruise got buffed quite a bit and are really good now for pve
- caracal got buffed a ton, drake got nerfed but is about to get a buff. Caracal works just fine in either HML or HAM fit, depending on use and scenario
- LML TD/damp Condors are a menace atm, same for the Crow
On the whole missiles got buffed a whole lot, only HML got nerfed.
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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar E.A.R.T.H. Federation
510
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Posted - 2014.06.01 12:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
It may also be interesting to know there is now a missile destroyer. It is pretty decent too.
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Jaedar Metron
0
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Posted - 2014.06.01 12:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hm, I guess it's not as bad as I first expected.
So the age of the solo/gang Battlecruiser is basically over? What changed? What would you guys recommend using as a fallback cheap lowsec pvp ship instead? Hawk? Caracal? (Sidenote, the Caracal can fit HAM's now? )
Would using a Caracal with Ham's be a good lowsec roaming ship? From the limited amount of time I've spent in lowsec after coming back, there seems to be a lot of destroyers and cruisers roaming around, but the Caracal was always kinda weak sauce compared to other cruisers.
EDIT: Oh yeah, the new missile Destroyers. I heard that the Corax were basically the worst of the bunchm is there any truth to that? Haah. |
0rch1d
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
4
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Posted - 2014.06.01 13:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
The CNR's damage application is just beastly. And if you enjoyed the Drake you'll love the Navy Scorp.
The standard Raven is worth a look as well, if for no other reason than to enjoy the CM buff on a sub-200 mil BS. |
Gregor Parud
551
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Posted - 2014.06.01 14:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jaedar Metron wrote:Hm, I guess it's not as bad as I first expected. So the age of the solo/gang Battlecruiser is basically over? What changed? What would you guys recommend using as a fallback cheap lowsec pvp ship instead? Hawk? Caracal? (Sidenote, the Caracal can fit HAM's now? ) Would using a Caracal with Ham's be a good lowsec roaming ship? From the limited amount of time I've spent in lowsec after coming back, there seems to be a lot of destroyers and cruisers roaming around, but the Caracal was always kinda weak sauce compared to other cruisers. EDIT: Oh yeah, the new missile Destroyers. I heard that the Corax were basically the worst of the bunchm is there any truth to that? Haah.
BC overall got nerfed a bit, because they were silly and everything else got buffed instead. So instead of seeing gangs of Canes now you see a myriad of different cruisers and whatnot. So overall the solo/small gang has become even more kiting focussed. The CBC (the old tier 1 and 2 BC) will get a MJD allowing them to "blink" 100km forward unless they're scrambled (just like MWD isn't shut down by long points), and that means that anyone wanting to a kill a CBC will be forced to get in short range (assuming no point range bonused ships).
So the meta for frigs and cruisers tends to be kiting and the new meta for CBC will become brawling. Whether that's good or not depends on the pilot and the situation, but they will have a niche that some people will enjoy and will make others rage because they're losing out on a juicy BC kill. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2172
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Posted - 2014.06.01 14:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Jaedar Metron wrote:Hm, I guess it's not as bad as I first expected. So the age of the solo/gang Battlecruiser is basically over? What changed? What would you guys recommend using as a fallback cheap lowsec pvp ship instead? Hawk? Caracal? (Sidenote, the Caracal can fit HAM's now? ) Would using a Caracal with Ham's be a good lowsec roaming ship? From the limited amount of time I've spent in lowsec after coming back, there seems to be a lot of destroyers and cruisers roaming around, but the Caracal was always kinda weak sauce compared to other cruisers. EDIT: Oh yeah, the new missile Destroyers. I heard that the Corax were basically the worst of the bunchm is there any truth to that? Haah. BC overall got nerfed a bit, because they were silly and everything else got buffed instead. So instead of seeing gangs of Canes now you see a myriad of different cruisers and whatnot. So overall the solo/small gang has become even more kiting focussed. The CBC (the old tier 1 and 2 BC) will get a MJD allowing them to "blink" 100km forward unless they're scrambled (just like MWD isn't shut down by long points), and that means that anyone wanting to a kill a CBC will be forced to get in short range (assuming no point range bonused ships). So the meta for frigs and cruisers tends to be kiting and the new meta for CBC will become brawling. Whether that's good or not depends on the pilot and the situation, but they will have a niche that some people will enjoy and will make others rage because they're losing out on a juicy BC kill.
They didn't get nerfed at all.. If anything they got buffed.. Removing a launcher and increasing the damage bonus on a ship is not a nerf >_>.
The main problem BC's have is that they are vaulnerable to being blobbed.. They are still quite powerful ships when you consider their price.. But yea, get blobbed loads. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
afkboss
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2014.06.01 14:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
kurage87 wrote:FML. Just did a point by point response and it got eaten.
Don't pvp in a Drake or any combat BC. Still good and solid pve runners.
All frig and dessy missile hulls are good -> fantastic.
RML are fine, just pay attention to clip size and reload timer. If you're alone, a single magazine is (very likely) not enough to kill a cruiser.
Tengu the least common PvP T3.
Nighthawk, see Drake.
Cerberus is good, but not that good.
I don't know about tengu being the least common pvp t3, Maybe you havent flown in a tengu fleet. |
kurage87
EVE University Ivy League
33
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Posted - 2014.06.01 17:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
afkboss wrote: I don't know about tengu being the least common pvp t3, Maybe you havent flown in a tengu fleet.
Oh, I didn't realise we gave a **** about fleet doctrines...
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
894
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Posted - 2014.06.01 17:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
The last time I've flown anything Caldari larger than a frigate for PVP was the pre nerfed Drake nerf. I'm not saying Caldari is terrible for PVP but there's better options for general PVP. EWAR is the exception where Caldari shines.
For level 4 missions Caldari have some nice ships... Raven, Navy Raven, and Golem. They're great because you can take them pretty much anywhere and mission without having to worry. The Drake was once a good choice for low skill pilots but with all the nerfs I would recommend a MJD Raven instead.
For incursions guns always seem to be preferred but that's nothing new.
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Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
433
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Posted - 2014.06.01 18:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cerberus is decent, but when you look at other HACs (Ishtar) it pales in comparison. The cerb is a great pve HAM platform due to the double range bonus, and can fit a fairly decent active tank.
The nighthawk is okay, but if you compare it to the claymore it starts to look really bad. Pretty much everything the nighthawk can do, the claymore can do better. |
Camper101
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
996
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Posted - 2014.06.02 09:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
kurage87 wrote:afkboss wrote: I don't know about tengu being the least common pvp t3, Maybe you havent flown in a tengu fleet.
Oh, I didn't realise we gave a **** about fleet doctrines...
The 100MN Tengu is pretty much the most survivable T3 on its own in Eve, whereas Loki/Proteus are the mainstay of any Armor T3 fleet and the Legion.... well, the Legion can be decent with HAMs or as neuting ship but that's a rather specialized thing.
I'd say Tengu gets more pewpew use than Legion tho, especially in small gang and solo scenarios.
Back to topic:
Missiles are pretty decent. Still the ultimate no-brainer-PvE weapon and a very viable choice in PvP. 2013.03.01 13:30:58 notify For participating in the General Discussion Forum Section your trustworthiness has been adjusted by -2.5000.
My name is Hans. The "L" stands for danger. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1397
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Posted - 2014.06.02 09:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jaedar Metron wrote:Hm, I guess it's not as bad as I first expected. So the age of the solo/gang Battlecruiser is basically over? What changed? What would you guys recommend using as a fallback cheap lowsec pvp ship instead? Hawk? Caracal? (Sidenote, the Caracal can fit HAM's now? ) Would using a Caracal with Ham's be a good lowsec roaming ship? From the limited amount of time I've spent in lowsec after coming back, there seems to be a lot of destroyers and cruisers roaming around, but the Caracal was always kinda weak sauce compared to other cruisers. EDIT: Oh yeah, the new missile Destroyers. I heard that the Corax were basically the worst of the bunchm is there any truth to that? Haah.
BC vanished by 2 things. The former tier 2 BC were all nerfed (except mirmidom) and BC now warp too slowly to keep up with cruisers.
If you do not need mobility then why not bring a battleship? If you do need it.. BC are not enough. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1397
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Posted - 2014.06.02 09:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:Cerberus is decent, but when you look at other HACs (Ishtar) it pales in comparison. The cerb is a great pve HAM platform due to the double range bonus, and can fit a fairly decent active tank.
The nighthawk is okay, but if you compare it to the claymore it starts to look really bad. Pretty much everything the nighthawk can do, the claymore can do better.
Well ALL hacs look sad when compared to the ishtar. That is not a fair comparison . Compare the cerberus to the Deimos, Munin, etc and it suddenly look quite good. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Gregor Parud
554
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Posted - 2014.06.02 09:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Chris Winter wrote:Cerberus is decent, but when you look at other HACs (Ishtar) it pales in comparison. The cerb is a great pve HAM platform due to the double range bonus, and can fit a fairly decent active tank.
The nighthawk is okay, but if you compare it to the claymore it starts to look really bad. Pretty much everything the nighthawk can do, the claymore can do better. Well ALL hacs look sad when compared to the ishtar. That is not a fair comparison . Compare the cerberus to the Deimos, Munin, etc and it suddenly look quite good.
Cerb and Deimos, while obviously different, are decently on par. The Muninn is just a relic of old times.
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Valleria Darkmoon
Convicts and Savages Shadow Cartel
253
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Posted - 2014.06.02 10:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
Larger ships suffer from blobbing a little worse than they used to. The warp speed changes means if you're in anything larger than a cruiser you're going to take longer to make any given warp than it used to take you while anything smaller is going to make the same warp faster than ever before since the changes affect the time it takes to accelerate and decelerate.
Even if you manage to divide a gang of smaller ships in a larger one by warping around as soon as you stop to fight you can be 100% sure that the rest of the gang will get there faster than you remember them being able to. This is also part of why frigates are flown more often than ever, the ability to get into warp fast and decelerate out quickly means that chasing a BC you will often warp after he does and still beat him to grid where he's going. From there tackle should be pretty easy with the BC landing on you...
The medium MJD might help BCs as you'll have to scram it or it can disengage and if you are in scram range you're playing right into his wheelhouse, the MMJD comes out tomorrow so I guess we'll see what the future brings. I'm just recently starting to see BS reappear in low sec more often and they are very frequently sporting MJDs. Again coming in to scram it is often a scary proposal but if you don't do it, he'll MJD and warp before you get your kill.
The good news for you is that caldari have some pretty good missile frigates, especially the condor. Light missiles and MWD with either damps or TDs for maximum rage. Toast if you get caught but otherwise you can kite with your ~70 dps for months. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
201
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Posted - 2014.06.03 16:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
I don't like missiles. (sorry i just had to put that in there) |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
268
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Posted - 2014.06.03 22:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
They didn't get nerfed at all.. If anything they got buffed.. Removing a launcher and increasing the damage bonus on a ship is not a nerf >_>.
The main problem BC's have is that they are vaulnerable to being blobbed.. They are still quite powerful ships when you consider their price.. But yea, get blobbed loads.
Well it is when you consider the drake lost dps when using other damage types. That 16% dps loss is a pretty huge nerf to it's power really.
Almost like they really want you to fit some C&C modules to your CBC and actually use them as disposable AWACS systems. LP store weapon cost rebalance |
HeXxploiT
Little Red X
35
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Posted - 2014.06.04 22:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ham Tengu is hands down the most beastly solo ship in the game for both pvp & pve.(not 100mn) Course...not many will actually attempt to solo a tengu so it usually ends up 4 vs 1. |
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2176
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Posted - 2014.06.04 23:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:
They didn't get nerfed at all.. If anything they got buffed.. Removing a launcher and increasing the damage bonus on a ship is not a nerf >_>.
The main problem BC's have is that they are vaulnerable to being blobbed.. They are still quite powerful ships when you consider their price.. But yea, get blobbed loads.
Well it is when you consider the drake lost dps when using other damage types. That 16% dps loss is a pretty huge nerf to it's power really. Almost like they really want you to fit some C&C modules to your CBC and actually use them as disposable AWACS systems.
Yea but how often did you use stuff other than scourge anyhow? Pretty much the only thing it would ever be worth it on would be against a Gallente t2 that hasn't plugged its res hole BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Maxor Swift
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
23
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Posted - 2014.06.05 01:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
As im sure you have found out RAPID anything is un-usable for PVE and risky to say the least for PVP (tiny clip combined with massive re-load ).
I very much like HAM cerbs for lightning quick lvl 3s/anoms, they are a bit under powered for fast lvl 4 clears, but still fun. "What you talking about willis" |
Luwc
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
137
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Posted - 2014.06.05 07:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
fly draek lel. http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
461
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Posted - 2014.06.05 08:12:00 -
[24] - Quote
My favourite missile ships are Caldari and Amarr... Crow and Caracal are still excellent though |
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