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Malena
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Posted - 2006.06.08 06:45:00 -
[1]
Is anyone else feeling the great big nerf stick getting shoved up their 4th point of contact because of the change that is coming to these skills?
The skill sucked to begin with...it's benefits were spotty and vague AT BEST, but at least getting it to 4 made you think you were doing something for yourself, and it allowed you to use the armor compensation skills. Now the armor comp skills aren't going to require this skill at 4 anymore. (No idea from the patch notes what they WILL require, however) What about those of us who wasted the time getting the skill to where it had to be because of the armor comp skills?
I propose that Tactical Shield Manipulation be changed to Shield Computation Manipulation and that the bonus be changed to 2% reduction in the CPU requirements of shield boosters per level. It should not include extenders, as simply adding more shields would not require more computation. Perhaps it could include hardeners, as a hardener would definitely have an impact on computation power. At least this way those of us who had the misfortune to already waste time with this skill will finally get something out of it.
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mazzilliu
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Posted - 2006.06.08 06:50:00 -
[2]
well from what ive heard the tactical manipulation shield skill was bugged at level 5 and didnt prevent damage leakage, so i guess CCP might as well do that.
hope they make the skill useful somehow though
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.08 07:53:00 -
[3]
first it was required for shield compensation skills and not armour oO
second you still need to train tactical shield compensation to 4 for some modules and to 5 if you want to capital shield tank
third whats the problem here? as a shield tanker you are most likely to have both tactical shield compensation and shield operation atleast at 4+
 Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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GrendelPrime
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Posted - 2006.06.08 22:28:00 -
[4]
Quote:
third whats the problem here? as a shield tanker you are most likely to have both tactical shield compensation and shield operation atleast at 4+
Well for starters... The skill dosen't DO ANYTHING!!... AFAIK its NEVER done anything, it was put in game to work with skills that were rumored to be coming to Eve, all the way back in the Castor days of the game. Those skills were scrapped, but Tac. Shield remained, and has not worked (as the skills it was supposed to help never made it into the game). Pretty sure the OP is just asking for the skill to have some reason for existence, other then a waste of skillpoints. Personally I like the idea of changing the skill to reduce CPU usage on boosters/hardners, I think it makes sense... and if nothing else at least then the skill would be worth training.
"Though you may die, do not give up your honor"
-- Miyamoto Musashi
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.09 09:47:00 -
[5]
i am well aware that the skill does practically nothing, the opener was ****ed that he learned it for the compensation skill which isnt necessary anymore, he doesnt realize that its still prereq for other things
while i am all for it that the skill gets changed to something useful his initial motivation derives from something he sees as a "nerf" when it isnt
changing it to a -2 cpu % wont happen i can tell you that much, armour tanking is balanced by pg need, shield tanking is balanced by cpu need, introduce that skill and shield tanking balance could get screwed up (in favour of shield tankers obviously)
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Malena
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Posted - 2006.06.09 15:29:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Malena on 09/06/2006 15:32:20
Originally by: Tiuwaz
i am well aware that the skill does practically nothing, the opener was ****ed that he learned it for the compensation skill which isnt necessary anymore, he doesnt realize that its still prereq for other things
while i am all for it that the skill gets changed to something useful his initial motivation derives from something he sees as a "nerf" when it isnt
changing it to a -2 cpu % wont happen i can tell you that much, armour tanking is balanced by pg need, shield tanking is balanced by cpu need, introduce that skill and shield tanking balance could get screwed up (in favour of shield tankers obviously)
In regards to your first post, you are absolutely correct, I was wrong...it is shields not armor.
As for the one quoted above... I am fully aware it is the requirement for other skills. That doesn't change the fact that a skill that is required by other skills is useless. Even science provides a bonus, despite being the basis for every other research skill.
As for balance, that is all relative. I have long felt that the game has favored armor tanking. (The instant armor boost when ganged with leadership skills vs the slow recharge of shields would be an example) Obviously, others would feel differently.
As for the bonus, I was simply making a suggestion, the skill should retain it's shield relevance but produce more verifiable results. I don't really care what the bonus actually is, as long as it is something that produces more quantifiable results than the skill currently does and is useful to shields.
And it is a "nerf", except in this case, it is a nerf to my character, instead of a ship or module. I have plenty of skillpoints in areas that I would love to take back and put somewhere else, but that isn't possible, nor should it be. This case is different in that the skill points were spent, then made irrelevant through no fault of the people who trained it, they didn't make a poor choice, the skill bonus itself is a poor choice.
When the skill debuted, no one realized that "damage bleed thru" wasn't really relevant. And people kept training the skill because it was required to use the shield compensation skills. Now it is not...so a skill that they would never have trained in the first place, is now no longer required.
Giving back skillpoints is not an option, so making the skill do something remotely useful is the only other one I see.
Consider it this way-the armor compensation skills require hull upgrades at level 4...and hull upgrades gives you a bonus to armor amount, 5% per level if I recall correctly. Why shouldn't the corresponding shield skill get such a clear bonus? It obviously can't be shield amount, because there is already a skill for that, but hopefully you see my point.
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.06.09 17:18:00 -
[7]
i see your point and completely agree with it
but i presume , if you trained the shield compensation skills,that you do some shield tanking and any shield tanker will have tactial shield compensation at lvl 4 because its a req for t2 shield hardeners
i completly agree tho that the skill itself is useless and only functions as a sp sink (afterall i got it trained myself ^^)
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Celestial Manager
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Posted - 2006.06.09 17:45:00 -
[8]
If people don't know the difference between Tact Shield Op level 4 & 5, then I feel sorry for you.. You can't call yourself a shield tanker :b I've had it at 5 for a while now.. and no more of this damage leaking through into my armor while I still have shields :)
But to each their own, ya?
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Malena
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Posted - 2006.06.09 18:48:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Malena on 09/06/2006 18:48:49
Personally, if I am shield tanking, and my shields are at the point where bleed thru is possible, I am rapidly vacating the area anyway.
And setting that aside for a second...why do I have to get the skill to 5 to see the result? Why can't I see a result in the first 4 levels of the skill? Oh, yea, cause the bonus is dumb!
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Celestial Manager
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Posted - 2006.06.09 21:34:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Malena
Edited by: Malena on 09/06/2006 18:48:49
Personally, if I am shield tanking, and my shields are at the point where bleed thru is possible, I am rapidly vacating the area anyway.
And setting that aside for a second...why do I have to get the skill to 5 to see the result? Why can't I see a result in the first 4 levels of the skill? Oh, yea, cause the bonus is dumb!
Oh, it still works at levels 1 - 4.. just that it still can leak through once in a while :) At 5, it doesn't leak through anymore...
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Duncan Storne
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Posted - 2006.06.10 08:48:00 -
[11]
If my shields are low enough that bleed-through is an issue, I'd prefer some damage did bleed through.
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Auron Shadowbane
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Posted - 2006.06.10 11:06:00 -
[12]
I'd suggest to make damage bleeding trough to have more impact in combat. Give attacks a 100% - Shield % remaining - 20*tact shield manipulation skill level chance to go right trough the shields and hit the armor.
hmm 100% might be to hard but maybe 50%-shield%-10*skillvl would be ok. well just some thoughts.
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Malena
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Posted - 2006.06.11 17:03:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Celestial Manager
Originally by: Malena
Edited by: Malena on 09/06/2006 18:48:49
Personally, if I am shield tanking, and my shields are at the point where bleed thru is possible, I am rapidly vacating the area anyway.
And setting that aside for a second...why do I have to get the skill to 5 to see the result? Why can't I see a result in the first 4 levels of the skill? Oh, yea, cause the bonus is dumb!
Oh, it still works at levels 1 - 4.. just that it still can leak through once in a while :) At 5, it doesn't leak through anymore...
So why do I need a skill to prevent something on the shields that doesn't happen at all on the armor? I have NEVER had any bleed thru on armor.... I don't take any structure damage as long as I have armor left, why is it different for shields?
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Daniel Alster
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Posted - 2006.06.11 17:35:00 -
[14]
I have it at lvl 5 along with every other engineering skill sub capital class + EM/Kin/Expl compensation (lvl 4)
I start taking armour damage at 23% shields
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Dnol Arendale
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Posted - 2006.06.11 21:17:00 -
[15]
It should also be mentioned that passive shield tankers might not actually want to take the full damage to their shields. The lower you get, the slower your recharge rate. So, you'd want to keep your sheild HP as high as possible to allow for a greater recharge rate. Now, it's all kind of moot, because at this point you should be aligned with a stellar object and your warp drive should be kicking right in.
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Malena
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Posted - 2006.06.13 14:23:00 -
[16]
surely someone else has an opinion?
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Jin Entres
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Posted - 2006.06.13 16:03:00 -
[17]
I think it's a completely useless skill. Even if it worked, it would be counter-productive because shields recharge better if some of the damage leaks into armour instead.
And what I find sillier is the fact that this time sink is required at level 5 for capital shield boosters. It's a rank 4 skill, while capital armor repairers require hull upgrades V which is a rank 2 skill and actually useful. Shield management adds hitpoints like hull upgrades, and would be much more useful as the prerequisite (and it's rank 3 so it would still take 50% longer).
Now that people have trained TSM, though, I would like to see it do something useful like the proposed cpu, or 1-2% all shield resistances or something.
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Kelgen Thann
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Posted - 2006.06.13 23:05:00 -
[18]
Quote:
If my shields are low enough that bleed-through is an issue, I'd prefer some damage did bleed through.
I passive shield tank a lot of the time. The damage leaking through has mixed blessing. If it takes away from the damage my shields are suffering then it's a good thing. But I've tried to look at hits and from what I can tell my shields take the full say 100 damage and then I lose about 5 armour as well.
I have had this skill at level 5 for a long time. I always get damage that leaks through when under 25% which happens to be part of the maximum shield regeneration levels.
I would love this skill to have some relevancy, add something to the ship that actually works.
I have noticed the amount of leakage decrease I think, can't be too sure, but it is definately not functioning properly
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Athanasios Anastasiou
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Posted - 2006.06.14 04:25:00 -
[19]
I like tactical shield manipulation; I run an active tank and there are times where my booster gets overwhelmed and I drop into the 10%-20% range.
Here is the thing: your shields are hardened, but your armor is not. I'd rather take 100 dmg in shields then 500 dmg in armor that leaked through.
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Malena
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Posted - 2006.06.14 16:58:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Malena on 14/06/2006 16:58:33
Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou
I like tactical shield manipulation; I run an active tank and there are times where my booster gets overwhelmed and I drop into the 10%-20% range.
Here is the thing: your shields are hardened, but your armor is not. I'd rather take 100 dmg in shields then 500 dmg in armor that leaked through.
Would you say that most armor has better natural resists than most shields? And what if someone chooses to use a damage control that hardens shield, armor and structure? What if they have an "extra" low slot that they decide to put a hardener in? Either way the armor is hardened, but the damage is still leaking through.
Anyway, the point of the thread is that the skill points were wasted to begin with (kind of like cybernetics...required for the cool stuff, but not giving you any return on investment) and now that the pre-reqs for the modules have been changed, that skill training time that was simply a means to an end is now a complete waste of training time. CCP are basically saying "Hey, you know that (week to ten days) you spent training tactical shield manipulation? Yea, thanks for paying us for time spent on something that does you no good."
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Athanasios Anastasiou
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Posted - 2006.06.15 01:36:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Malena
Edited by: Malena on 14/06/2006 16:58:33
Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou
I like tactical shield manipulation; I run an active tank and there are times where my booster gets overwhelmed and I drop into the 10%-20% range.
Here is the thing: your shields are hardened, but your armor is not. I'd rather take 100 dmg in shields then 500 dmg in armor that leaked through.
Would you say that most armor has better natural resists than most shields? And what if someone chooses to use a damage control that hardens shield, armor and structure? What if they have an "extra" low slot that they decide to put a hardener in? Either way the armor is hardened, but the damage is still leaking through.
If the shield tanker uses armor hardeners, then he is very dumb. Personally, I do missions (mostly against guristas), my shield knetic/therm tend to be above 70%. I can't say the same thing for my armor. When I do get into armor, that armor goes much more faster than my shields.
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Arcadia1701
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Posted - 2006.06.15 01:44:00 -
[22]
I have tactical shield manipulation 5, and it is indeed broken, when shiled is at 20% damage starts leaking through to my armor.
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Keravnos
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Posted - 2006.06.15 04:54:00 -
[23]
I love reading this stuff right as I'm about 2 hours from completing TSM to level 4. Hooray.
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It's got fangs you know... |
Sarleena
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Posted - 2006.06.15 06:41:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Keravnos
I love reading this stuff right as I'm about 2 hours from completing TSM to level 4. Hooray.
Don't worry, those tech 2 active shield hardeners are shiny.  I'm more amused by the fact that after the change, I'm going to have four skills trained that I won't have the pre-req for. <.< Shield ops 3, ftw!
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, champagne in one hand, strawberries in the oth |
Malena
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Posted - 2006.06.15 14:38:00 -
[25]
Athanasios=you are missing the point. Whether the skill works or not is irrelevant to this thread. The point is that the skill, which had been required and didn't do much in the first place, has been relegated to uselessness and the people who trained it simply so they could use t2 hardeners are now out a week or more of training time. And since the skill is basically useless, there is not any bonus to having trained it anyway.
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Tony Sharpe
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Posted - 2006.06.15 14:57:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Tony Sharpe on 15/06/2006 14:59:51
I would like to agree with the OP.
It seems unbalanced in comparison to other skills especially armor tanking skills to have TSM as a prerequisite of higher end skills purely for the SP and time sink it creates. This is one of those area's that dev's should always be cautious of, using meaningless game mechanics to slow peoples progression as it causes frustration. If people must dedicate 20+ days to something, it needs to have a noticeable and positive effect on them otherwise you introduce a negative mindset in to what should be viewed as a positive achievement of progressing through the game.
I would like to run a capital shield booster eventually and I see TSM 5 as a complete waste of my time unlike some of the other skills that provide a 5% boost to either shield/armor HP or recharge. If i eventually train this skill (to use cap shield booster) it will undoubtedly frustrate me and this will inevitably result in me leaving the game. (I feel frustration and boredom are the only reasons people leave MMO games, of course that is just my opinion....) It may not make me quit on the day, but it will add to the slowly growing (and currently quite small) list of reasons for me to move on. Add a few more "time sinks" and game mechanics that are purely designed to slow my progression without providing benefit or challenge and that list grows.....
I hope the dev's will take this in to account for future skills and if possible, alter the current TSM to have a slightly more beneficial aspect. I like the suggestion of a small reduction in CPU as currently, for a rank 4 skill, it is not comparable to any other rank 4. For example, Surgical Strike is a rank 4 skill (3% damage increase to ALL turrets) and Assault Ships is also rank 4 (Significant ship based bonuses per level!).
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Havelcek
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Posted - 2006.06.15 20:46:00 -
[27]
There are skills in the game that are valuable on their own. There are skills in the game that give you access to valuable mods. There are skills in the game that do both (the good ones). Tact Shield Manip is an example of a skill that gives access to valuable mods and unlocks other skill trees.
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Tony Sharpe
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Posted - 2006.06.16 09:06:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Havelcek
There are skills in the game that are valuable on their own. There are skills in the game that give you access to valuable mods. There are skills in the game that do both (the good ones). Tact Shield Manip is an example of a skill that gives access to valuable mods and unlocks other skill trees.
Havelcek, this is a good point. Can you remind us of some other Rank 4 skills, that need to be trained to either level 4 or level 5 to unlock modules in this game?
Thanks,
Tony
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Malena
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Posted - 2006.06.16 21:10:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Havelcek
There are skills in the game that are valuable on their own. There are skills in the game that give you access to valuable mods. There are skills in the game that do both (the good ones). Tact Shield Manip is an example of a skill that gives access to valuable mods and unlocks other skill trees.
But that is my point!!! I didn't complain about the skill not doing much before, because I wanted to be able to use t2 hardeners...but now they have changed those prereqs, and thus thrown my (and everyone else's) skill training out the window! Plus, the skill isn't very effective to make up for it.
And which modules are you speaking of? The armor skills? Well, I don't rememeber what rank skills they are, but they do require hull upgrades 4..except that hull upgrades 4 provides a clear, obviously working bonus.
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mrhateboy
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Posted - 2006.06.19 01:49:00 -
[30]
When I read teh 3913 patch notes I see:
EM, Explosive, Kinetic and Thermic Shield Compensation skill requirements changed from Tactical Shield Manipulation to Shield Operation.
I'm running 3913. When I check my skill tree, it still lists tactical shield manipulation as a prereq for my shield compensation skills. What gives? The skills still seem to be working.
--Matt
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