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James Duar
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Posted - 2006.06.12 11:57:00 -
[1]
For or Against, I'd like to throw out an explanation of why they would work without undermining the game.
The answer is basically through cryptography. When the client requests to create a bookmark, the server cluster creates the bookmark in an appropriate format and encrypts and signs it with a 1-time pad of fairly good integrity (256/512 bits would be unbreakable without a global network of computers). At no time is the BM available to the client unencrypted, so there's no hacker trickery which can be used to get at it and edit it beyond brute-forcing the cryptography (not doable). Combine this with CCP switching the keys around every few months and no one is ever going to break it.
I think this should be done - it would allow people to copy and sell BM's to there heart's content without increasing server lag or bogging down the database.
Shoot it down for me people.
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Eight Ace
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Posted - 2006.06.12 13:06:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Eight Ace on 12/06/2006 13:12:11
Surely the server would have to maintain an ever increasing list of the keys it has used to encrypt historical bookmarks, identify the key, decrypt the bookmarks on the fly then send the unencrypted data back to the client to allow it to calculate a vector for ship alignment?
It's not a bad idea, but encryption is fairly expensive in CPU cycles. Whilst this would remove the massive BM table it would require other resources in the node boxes.
Further to this the traffic generated from bookmarks flying to and from the server whilst actually being used is going to be significant. There's a lot of folks out there.
Sure, it would allow offline copying, but I really don't think CCP want that, I dont know that I would as well as I occasionally play on different machines and I dont want to have to remember a USB key with all my BM's on it.
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James Duar
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Posted - 2006.06.12 13:23:00 -
[3]
They don't need to use a whole lot of unique keys. They just need to use the one key per system or something and use it to encrypt all of them, then cycle that on some time basis when the BM's are used. Digitally signing them ensures that people can't tamper with them even if they do decrypt them.
Additionally, a BM isn't really a very large thing - it's just a few numbers telling the game where the ship is to warp to, it would not add that much overhead.
Finally, I don't think offline copying would really be all that much of a problem for CCP. They can either allow it, or tag BM's to client accounts so you can't copy them without sending them through the server to another account or similar. The point here is basically that with BM's in the state they are thanks to insta's, and no insta solution likely for quite some time, something has to be done.
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Abyss Jack
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Posted - 2006.06.12 13:30:00 -
[4]
if bookmarks would be stored on client side, than every one could edit them and build his own super savespots 400a/u+ away from any object
I would like to see a new skill which allow the players to warp 0m at the stargate (at lvl5 offcourse / lvl4 = 3km from gate should be ok), so 95% of all instabookmarks can be deleted, that means:
-more server performance / millions of bookmarks will disapear
-no HORROABLE lag if you open your people and places
-no system lag, that apear if 5-10 people copying bms like hell
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Hugh Ruka
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Posted - 2006.06.12 13:40:00 -
[5]
even if editing was not possible, I still like my server side bookmarks...
imagine you lose your data by a drive crash, or accidentaly remove them.
and you cannot log in from any client, you need to use your own or carry the bms everywhere with you.
NO
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if you want peace, prepare for war ...
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Removed due to offensive content - Laqum
I realy liked my signature. Oh well |
Amina Stormbringer
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Posted - 2006.06.12 16:05:00 -
[6]
Better idea, how about simply importing them and exporting them rather than them being client side.
And whats wrong with making a spot in space thats 400km away from the solar system. If its not in range of you ship, it won't register for you and therefor won't cause you to download it being there.
Being able to edit bookmarks is what makes things a bit more realistic, imputting coordinates makes sense no? Just have it only editable while online. Provide the tools and no one will bother make a 3rd party one.
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Abyss Jack
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Posted - 2006.06.12 18:05:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Amina Stormbringer
Better idea, how about simply importing them and exporting them rather than them being client side.
And whats wrong with making a spot in space thats 400km away from the solar system. If its not in range of you ship, it won't register for you and therefor won't cause you to download it being there.
Being able to edit bookmarks is what makes things a bit more realistic, imputting coordinates makes sense no? Just have it only editable while online. Provide the tools and no one will bother make a 3rd party one.
not 400km, 400 AU that means out of scanner- and probe range, so you are unable to find them sitting on super save... (btw i know its still possible to do those saves...but this methode requiers at least a couple of skillpoints )
tbh "warp at 0km" option for gates and stations would be the best 
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James Duar
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Posted - 2006.06.13 00:25:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Abyss Jack
if bookmarks would be stored on client side, than every one could edit them and build his own super savespots 400a/u+ away from any object
I would like to see a new skill which allow the players to warp 0m at the stargate (at lvl5 offcourse / lvl4 = 3km from gate should be ok), so 95% of all instabookmarks can be deleted, that means:
-more server performance / millions of bookmarks will disapear
-no HORROABLE lag if you open your people and places
-no system lag, that apear if 5-10 people copying bms like hell
I'd just like to thank you for totally not reading my post before replying, with an idea that's been shot down dozens of times because everyone would train this skill to Lvl 5 much like the learning skills currently. What's the point?
The point of my idea was that the bookmarks are ENCRYPTED. Now before you say "people will just break it" let me explain what encrypted means in a real sense: It takes about 40,000 computers working round the clock to break a 56-bit DES key, which people agree was pretty flawed anyway. CCP could use a 256-bit 1-time pad key per system - this would be UNBREAKABLE for all practical purposes. Since the bookmark is encrypted BEFORE it leaves the server, there is no way to get at it in an unencrypted form.
Finally: we could address the problem of multiple clients by storing the BM's offline from the main server so you could go a one-time import to a client to get all your bookmarks when you logon (this would be fast, since they're not that big).
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Reggie Stoneloader
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Posted - 2006.06.13 02:31:00 -
[9]
Your idea sounds pretty foolproof in terms of preventing abuse of the system, but it's still fragile. Those little mookmark files can be deleted, or corrupted, or otherwise screwed with, and as long as they're such a central component of the overwhelming majority of players' lives, that's an unacceptable risk.
Bookmarks need to be eliminated and replaced. Just moving them client-side wouldn't be enough. The game has to be changed such that we aren't constantly using bookmarks. It feels phony, like metagaming. It's obvious that we're misusing the system, but the game's grown up with them, so it'll take something drastic to sever that tie.
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Amina Stormbringer
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Posted - 2006.06.13 03:54:00 -
[10]
Heh, this is several thousand years later... Right now we can have a cruise missile hit the tee on a golf course. And yet we can't warp within range of a stargate?
Books marks are useful and they are realistic but its more likely to launch a beacon capable of cloaking and its also more likely that we should be able to warp anywhere in the solar system and not just to points of interest.
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James Duar
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Posted - 2006.06.13 04:17:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader
Your idea sounds pretty foolproof in terms of preventing abuse of the system, but it's still fragile. Those little mookmark files can be deleted, or corrupted, or otherwise screwed with, and as long as they're such a central component of the overwhelming majority of players' lives, that's an unacceptable risk.
Check my post above - I dealt with that point by saying that with client-side BMs they could be moved away from the main server cluster and a 1-time import function would then cache them all locally for you.
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Brogan Dagarkin
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Posted - 2006.06.13 13:24:00 -
[12]
This has been suggested before (back in January) with some excellent points and discussions.
Refer to the old post here.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=273077 |
kirjava
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Posted - 2006.06.13 19:17:00 -
[13]
I have an idea. There are people in corps that are dedicated to copying bookmarks for the corp members specificaly. I beleive that if we had a corp bookmarks folder built into the server, then these lag problems can easily be addressed. I switch chars between computers frequently, so i know that there is virtualy no lag when u open a new bm that was made on another computer.
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Brogan Dagarkin
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Posted - 2006.06.14 05:56:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Brogan Dagarkin on 14/06/2006 05:57:53
Also suggested before:
Here (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=210572)
Here (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=325707)
and finally
Here (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=94681&page=7) - Last post
Edit: I still prefer the client side encrypted bookmark. It would make it so much easier to distribute to corp mates and should you prefer a different naming convention should make it easy to rename the bookmarks. |
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