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Which frigate completely wins out against a Slicer?

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Wu Jiaqiu Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 182	Posted - 2014.06.23 07:34:00 - [1] - Quote What are your ways to kill them? Or any other laser kiting frigate? I'm looking for a cheaper alternative than taking my Taranis and Dramiel. So far I've tested a MWD Arty Firetail. Nope. TD LML Kestrel. Nope Your thoughts?
Dato Koppla Elite Guards 620	Posted - 2014.06.23 08:12:00 - [2] - Quote Basically, anything fast enough to catch the slicer, tanky enough to survive the initial dps, and the ability to pull a close orbit on it (MWD + Scram + Web or Dual Prop + Scram). You can do it in most MWD/Scram/Web brawling T1 frigates if you get a good slingshot, obviously faster frigates fare better (Firetail is a good choice, use ACs and orbit at 500 and the Slicer can't track you). TD LML Kestrel can work too but if the enemy Slicer is a good pilot he'll realize he's being TD very quickly and come in closer, but bad Slicers (there are lots) will usually realize too late. I usually don't try to fly other kiters/long range ships against Slicers because Slicers have really good projection and dps at range so you'll usually lose those battles, it comes down to catching the slicer and abusing the bad tracking of pulse lasers by pulling a tight orbit (since they will be MWD + Long point the Slicer will have no range control once scrammed). My usual go-to Slicer killing fit is a MWD/Scram/Web/MSE Firetail with Nano/DCU/Gyrostab in the lows with 200mm ACs, you can usually OH your MWD and just run the Slicer down immediately after engaging and if you miss that oppurtunity, you have enough tank to go for at least 2 slingshots, once the Slicer is caught it's dead.
Ovv Topik Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 674	Posted - 2014.06.23 08:15:00 - [3] - Quote In the context of FW plex fighting, the golden rule is: Dont warp in on them, let them come to you. Just sit within 1km of the warp in beacon and as soon as they land on grid, hit overheat on your mid rack. This extends your web to 13km and your scram to over 11km. click approach, and anything which doesnt have a 400mm plate will catch them every time. Focus on your Nav skills if you havnt already, and a 'Zor's' 5% speed implant is a good cheap alternative to snakes for a bit extra speed. Or there are the new 'Low Grade snakes'. I Dopn't know much about their price/performance yet, but I'd be reluctnt to give up my Geni's/Zor's for less than 10% speed boost. "Jita 4 4 Spaceport. You will not find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious!"
Mizhir Euphoria Released Triumvirate. 64016	Posted - 2014.06.23 09:10:00 - [4] - Quote A claw would do great. Great speed and awesome tank against em/therm damage. One Man Crew - Collective solo pvp
Charlie Firpol Noob Mercs Monkeys with Guns. 240	Posted - 2014.06.23 14:05:00 - [5] - Quote Anything Dualprop with a Scram. I use a Dualprop Atron often. Electron Blasters, Dualprop + Scram, Dam Control, EANM and small Ancillary Armor Rep
Zen Guerrilla CTRL-Q Iron Oxide. 175	Posted - 2014.06.23 14:34:00 - [6] - Quote Slashers and firetails work. Using a TD will help a lot when they switch to close range ammo. Use a tracking speed script and orbit them close once you got web+scram and you should easily tank them with an SAAR/DCU tank. pew pew
Gizznitt Malikite Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 4016	Posted - 2014.06.23 14:55:00 - [7] - Quote In my experience, the helios is a hard counter to the slicer: the Helios the Helios ok... that's usually because the slicer has no idea what is going on. Outside of this, any frigate that can actually catch the slicer can usually destroy the slicer. Be mindful of links, as they make the slicer very hard to catch.
Liam Inkuras Top Belt Heroes 1141	Posted - 2014.06.23 15:55:00 - [8] - Quote Back in my RvB days I had incredible success killing slicers with a no-tank dual prop Atron, akin to the classic Taranis fit. It was always a close fight, but I won the majority of the engagements. I wear my goggles at night. Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
X Gallentius Justified Chaos 2307	Posted - 2014.06.23 15:56:00 - [9] - Quote because of tracking disruptor.
Shelom Severasse Elite Kombat Academy 17	Posted - 2014.06.23 16:50:00 - [10] - Quote web scram orbit @ 500 win

SurrenderMonkey Space Llama Industries 1007	Posted - 2014.06.23 17:08:00 - [11] - Quote Slicer is pretty much the only navy frigate that I never bat an eye at when I'm in a T1 frig. Unless they're linked, just about any combat-oriented T1 frigate with a scram and an MWD should be able to feed them their teeth. "Help, I'm bored with missions!" http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
JAF Anders Quantum Cats Syndicate Repeat 0ffenders 216	Posted - 2014.06.23 17:33:00 - [12] - Quote It's the same as how we engage any opponent -- enhance damage applied, mitigate damage taken. A diagnostic of any engagement should begin with the assessment of range. The pilot who can most effectively dictate the range at which the engagement occurs is much more likely to win. In the case of the Slicer versus a random challenger, the margin for error is slim. Unlinked Slicer pilots should be expected to push their velocity past 4,000 m/s. By and large, if you can't considerably exceed this velocity through overheating, you should immediately make the decision to evade. The hard velocity requirements put a vast amount of options off the table for you, pilot. The choices that remain lend themselves to three groups, what I refer to as "kite", "counter-kite", and "super-kite". Kite ships apply damage at the edge of point range, typically between 18,000-22,000 m. Kiting uses a healthy amount of range to keep most weapons platforms at bay while applying damage of its own. The kiter typically sacrifices defensive buffer for reduction in signature and increase in velocity. The concept also requires giving up most forms of local repair for capacitor sustainability. The result is a ship that can choose its own targets and escape many unfavorable escalations at-will, making it a good choice for the avid asymmetric combat enthusiast. Counter-kite ships apply damage within scram range, typically between 0-2,000 m. The counter-kite concept relies on closing the gap quickly and winning the DPS race with the kiting ship. Counter-kiters operate similarly to their brawling ancestors but shed defensive buffer for more raw speed and utility. In its reduced form, it's a brawler that's exchanged one sort of tank for another. Rightly so, the worst fear of a Slicer pilot is getting scrammed. Bait in a ship typically purposed to lose, then win. Super-kite ships apply damage beyond point range, anywhere from 24,000 m to the hard limit on lock range, 250,000 m. Typically, frigates will need specialized equipment to pull this off, such as Signal Amplifiers or scripted Sensor Boosters. There is no need for any tank beyond that which extreme range provides, nor any form of range control besides your own maneuverability. The super-kite pilot relies on wishful thinking or wingman for tackle; in other cases, the Warp To 0m button effectiely ends the engagement. Should harassment or nible backup be your aim, look no farther. Without going into much detail, you should be able to see that much of the information in this topic is accurate and helpful, as I hope my post also has been. Very respectfully, -JAF (If you end up going the more expensive route, the Daredevil is a good choice. It's got plenty of raw buffer to survive the initial volleys and a heated, linked Navy web is more than enough to burn up to a Slicer, web him in his own optimals and turbodunk him with the facemelting power of blasters.) The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.
Luscar Seneca Elysian. Heiian Conglomerate 7	Posted - 2014.06.24 03:46:00 - [13] - Quote JAFs answer was awesome. Plus one. But Ive got 3 words for you. Hookbill.
Lugia3 Intentionally Dense Easily Excited 987	Posted - 2014.06.24 04:16:00 - [14] - Quote Wolf. The destoyer of all frigs. Except Crows, Garmurs, linked Drams, and linked Dares. And Thrashers. Don't touch any Thrashers. "CCP Dolan is full of ****." - CCP Bettik
l0rd carlos Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire 958	Posted - 2014.06.24 10:43:00 - [15] - Quote Rail Police! German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com
Meditril T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan 370	Posted - 2014.06.24 15:15:00 - [16] - Quote Sentinel works very nicely against Slicers, Daredevils and all the other cap-hungry stuff.
Grease PaYN 24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2014.06.24 15:56:00 - [17] - Quote I've had a lot of success killing slicers in a crucifier, both when entering their plex or defending my own.
Nick Starkey Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF 60	Posted - 2014.06.24 21:02:00 - [18] - Quote Dramiels. Fast enough by nature to outrun Slicers even if they have links, and murders them in an instant after being scramed. ..
Daniel Toner F0RCED ENTRY Drop the Hammer 0	Posted - 2014.06.27 00:44:00 - [19] - Quote Or you can make a ship that has a range of more them 20km and make a 2km/s or faster ship that he just can't hit . Cost 5mill
Daniel Toner F0RCED ENTRY Drop the Hammer 0	Posted - 2014.06.27 00:52:00 - [20] - Quote And to add to that at the minimum cost. Or you can make a 250mill boss frig of webing death that people don't even know what it can do p.s fit is top secret so give me 60mill isk and I will give you a link ok =ƒÿè. But why would any one do that =ƒÿâG¥ò

Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 420	Posted - 2014.06.27 05:03:00 - [21] - Quote slicers became obsolete when loki links where released Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Sean Parisi Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T 579	Posted - 2014.06.27 15:40:00 - [22] - Quote Some people fit Slicers for close range / active rep engagement - but for the most part they are one trick ponies and will try to orbit or keep at range @20km and they deal a lot of DPS. But usually if they are fit like this they are very soft, so your best bet is to either reduce their range (TD optimal range), Slingshot them and melt them or just outrun them and close / out dps at range.
Valleria Darkmoon Convicts and Savages Shadow Cartel 268	Posted - 2014.06.30 12:19:00 - [23] - Quote Sean Parisi wrote: Some people fit Slicers for close range / active rep engagement - but for the most part they are one trick ponies and will try to orbit or keep at range @20km and they deal a lot of DPS. But usually if they are fit like this they are very soft, so your best bet is to either reduce their range (TD optimal range), Slingshot them and melt them or just outrun them and close / out dps at range. The brawling slicer is a web away from being really strong. I have used brawling slicers to attack ships that will sit on the warp in to a FW plex hoping to scram me. I name my ship something that alludes to scorch being OP to not give any hints that I'm looking for close range making it a pretty easy bait. The slicer can actually get a really strong tank and dps out of those 5 lows although your range control leaves something to be desired. You're still reasonably fast for an AB frigate even plated but you'll still be no match for webs. Locus rigs and your hull bonuses allows you to reach out to long point range so as long as you are not being kited by a linked long point you should be OK. A ship with skirmish links and long point is probably MWD fit so you just sit on the warp in for a plex and let him come to you if he wants and if you have him scrammed you are probably faster with your AB. Scram fit opponents will often be surprised by your 200 dps with multifrequency and your tracking isn't that bad because you are not taking penalties for scorch. You will be using the aggressive approach of the opposing scram ship to your advantage in the opening stages and often by the time people figure out what's going on you can finish them before they get away. You will at least hold your own on damage against most things within scram range and your 5 lows can quickly tip the tanking battle your way. At the same time you have the ability to at least attempt to drive off anything that does get outside your scram, with optimal for scorch ~22 km you stand a good chance of breaking point range. Carry radio as well, it can save you if scorch is in range but isn't hitting as most of the stuff you might use it against is pretty thin. The trick to winning with this fit is the pre-fight. You need someone convinced they can catch your kitey paper ship, then abuse that expectation to secure the win before your opponent can react. As I said though a 2/3/5 slicer instead of 3/2/5 would be really really strong in this role, probably op. Your range dictation being a mind game instead of a web is pretty sketchy and so this fit will basically get fried against anyone who knows they are fighting it. If you often fly in the same areas and are going to use a brawl slicer I suggest sometimes using a kitey slicer as well and give all your slicers the same name so anyone who gets to know you will have to roll the dice every time they go for a fight. Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
JAF Anders Quantum Cats Syndicate Repeat 0ffenders 223	Posted - 2014.06.30 16:21:00 - [24] - Quote You might be able to fit AB/web and hope they don't realize they can warp off / choose not to. I don't typically rely on my opponent executing poorly, but if you're going to be throwing a curveball anyway, this just might fit. The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders 836	Posted - 2014.06.30 16:27:00 - [25] - Quote JAF Anders wrote: You might be able to fit AB/web and hope they don't realize they can warp off / choose not to. I don't typically rely on my opponent executing poorly, but if you're going to be throwing a curveball anyway, this just might fit. My kind of curveball. I might add that AB/web makes conflag perfectly viable, you'll track anything. And easily get well over 250 dps heated, to shorten the window for the opponent to GTFO in time.
Valleria Darkmoon Convicts and Savages Shadow Cartel 271	Posted - 2014.06.30 20:41:00 - [26] - Quote JAF Anders wrote: You might be able to fit AB/web and hope they don't realize they can warp off / choose not to. I don't typically rely on my opponent executing poorly, but if you're going to be throwing a curveball anyway, this just might fit. You're not really relying on your opponent to execute poorly so much as you want him to execute well against a ship he isn't actually fighting. The fact that the vast majority of slicers are a paper kite makes that work easier. What I worry about with web instead of scram is this: I fought a Rifter and Tristan in a brawl fit a few days ago, the Rifter was AB, scram, TD and the Tristan was MWD fit with a full rack of neuts for highs. The Rifter was sitting in the plex with the Tristan warping in once the fight started. Presumably the Rifter was there sitting at zero in order to prevent me from kiting and use the TD to keep himself alive at the outset while he gets in close. I landed and he burned in close only to promptly have his face melted off due to me still being mobile and my tracking not being nerfed by scorch. He tried to get in very close like he should against a kite slicer but because our speeds were comparable I was able to hold range moving away and keep him between 2-3 km where the optimal penalty was worthless. With the Tristan scrammed I had the speed advantage so I was able to pull out to the edge of scram range and finish him from there before the neuts cost me the fight, had I only webbed him he would have been slightly faster than me with the MWD on meaning I couldn't have pulled away and the neuts would have killed me. He was cap injected as well so he could have pulled it off for sure. Now this won't happen every time for sure but without the ability to turn off MWDs there are a lot of fits that can break free if they have one fitted and that can be pretty bad for you depending on what it is. The Daredevil can pull off the webs only, no point thing because its dps is so high and if you are MWDing while 90% webbed you're practically just giving yourself a sig bloom and draining your cap for no reason, especially if he's using two webs. The slicer just doesn't have that going for it. The low number of mid slots on a lot of Amarr ships is what keeps them from being total beasts in a lot of cases, the slicer definitely falls into that category. Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Artuard Envien The North Capsuleers The North is Coming 14	Posted - 2014.07.02 09:04:00 - [27] - Quote If I see a hostile slicer on d-scan I : 1) Put on a white scarf 2) undock my own slicer. Best dogfights ever.
Maeltstome Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi 493	Posted - 2014.07.03 12:37:00 - [28] - Quote Sentinel.
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance 520	Posted - 2014.07.06 21:19:00 - [29] - Quote Maeltstome wrote: Sentinel. Sentinal
JAF Anders Quantum Cats Syndicate Repeat 0ffenders 229	Posted - 2014.07.07 19:10:00 - [30] - Quote Valleria Darkmoon wrote: JAF Anders wrote: You might be able to fit AB/web and hope they don't realize they can warp off / choose not to. I don't typically rely on my opponent executing poorly, but if you're going to be throwing a curveball anyway, this just might fit. You're not really relying on your opponent to execute poorly so much as you want him to execute well against a ship he isn't actually fighting. The fact that the vast majority of slicers are a paper kite makes that work easier. What I worry about with web instead of scram is this: Anything with an MWD and neut(s). If your opponent is not pointed and does not warp out of a losing fight, he has executed poorly. MWD and neuts seem an overcomplication compared to this. Occam's Razor would encourage me to limit my reasoning to the first point.[1] I also consider it poor execution of the opponent to not react to the situation once it has been ascertained, and that the appropriate use of inverted stereotypes encourages initial pilot missteps. Your commentary on range control was a good read. It should be no surprise to you, then, that I would encourage a normalization of sorts when discussing the relative velocities of ships, especially within propulsion jamming range, be it stasis webification or microwarpdrive deactivation. Base velocities can be described in relative fashion, making the appropriate handicap for skills, implants, and warfare links. Once done, the effect of propulsion modules and their inhibition can be more simply analyzed. For example, I know that an Atron has a higher base velocity than the Incursus. With all else held constant [2], I can say that I'll dictate range, since we'll both be fitting the same modules in our 3 mid-slots. Any changes can then be described in relative terms and the transfer of range control that follows. With that said, the reasoning behind using the web instead of the scram is entirely dependent on my intended target. Using a web allows the Slicer to dictate range against most brawlers (and even the ones it loses to, it only loses slowly). Serious brawlers [3] will close the gap very quickly, likely winning the DPS race. I myself put little faith in catching an MWD'ing target with a Scrambler "on the warp-in" due to the reliance on server ticks, invulnerability, module latency, and the fact that I already get away more often than I should. [1] Pun not initially intended, but immediately appreciated [2] Or ceteris paribus, because really, throwing in a dead language makes you sound smarter [3] AB/Scram/Web, "hard tackle", not AB/Scram/CapBooster The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.

Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 129	Posted - 2014.07.10 18:14:00 - [31] - Quote Dragoon. Three full flights of damage/durability & speed bonused drones + impressive neuting ability out to scram range = potent frigate killer. You should be able to kill or drive off most frigates and neut whatever you can't enough to get away yourself. Give it a try.... Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 24	Posted - 2014.07.11 17:35:00 - [32] - Quote Ive had good success with MASB lml breacher. Double em rigs and dmg rig. Fit is: 3 LML langour drive web (cpu restriction) MASB T2 longpoint limited 1mn mwd nano iffa dcu meta4 pdu (for pg plus u gain cap/shield) x2 em rig 1 calef rig 1% pg implant (personal preference. You could drop pdu for MAPC, but you lose out on pdu bonus. Dps is lowish at ~100, but its a survivor and cap life is great. Plus its only 100ms slower than slicer. easy to slingshot slicers and you dont have a gaping em hole. Grab em with web, and just tank em till theyre dead. Killed a brawly crusader with that fit too.


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