Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 .. 11 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |

Adunh Slavy
1539
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 16:29:00 -
[91] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Time and Effort savings aren't mentioned in the Eula in the same way you are saying time
One ISBOXER running 10 ICE miners doesn't not make a single isk more than 10 players Ice mining next to them.
He may do it by himself, he may save time over a single ice miner in getting 200 blocks saved up, but again NO FASTER than if he had 10 computers and 10 accounts, one on each computer.
more efficient, but not faster
Are you even reading your own arguments? You contradict yourself.
What about the mineral miner? What about The PVPer, the ratter, the mission runner and the incursion runner? The vast majority of the UI overhead is reduced for all of them due to automation. They can run around and shoot more rocks, more rats, more targets.
Could a player with out IsBoxer accomplish the same? Nope.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |

Adunh Slavy
1539
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 16:39:00 -
[92] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote: No it doesn't but, please, continue to think that. The differences are measured in fractions of a second - the reaction time of the human body.
So do you use IsBoxer now? And if so, why? Do you mean to tell me you spent your money for no reason? Really. Do tell us all how you just throw money away for no reason, oh excuse me, fractions of a second, we're all interested in hearing about it.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |

LtCol RTButts
UK Corp RAZOR Alliance
25
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 17:58:00 -
[93] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Adrie Atticus wrote: So CCP should not be the one setting and enforcing policies related to a CCP product?
Yep, it is their game and their reputation. If they want to look like double speaking liars, they're more than welcome to do that. Adrie Atticus wrote: Accelerated rate has been explained, no character gains anything at an accelerated pace, you are mixing up character and the actual player.
Controlling efficiency is not something which is giving you any gains at accelerated speed.
TL;DR: You think something is unfair and unjust, it's your responsibility to provide proof, not those who uphold the current status quo. You have yet failed to do so.
So you are saying that software, that can send key strokes and mouse clicks to other clients, is no more effiecnet than one person having to to interact with each client? Your equivocations, and CCP's, are lies. No, I'm not saying that ISboxer is not more efficient at giving commands to clients than one human alt-tabbing between clients. I did say that ISBoxer does not accelerate the "acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play." You have not found a rebuttal to this, I'll lurk around waiting.
come on, stop talking. show me how you do a vanguard without ISBoxer or any other tool/hardware. show me that is is exactly the same ratio with ALT+TAB and that you have no advantage with it. show me how you can ice min with 40 accounts without tools and haul all the ore at the same time.
JUST show it and stop talking. should be really no big deal with all your arguments.
|

De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies The Unthinkables
2469
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 18:17:00 -
[94] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:De'Veldrin wrote: No it doesn't but, please, continue to think that. The differences are measured in fractions of a second - the reaction time of the human body.
So do you use IsBoxer now? And if so, why? Do you mean to tell me you spent your money for no reason? Really. Do tell us all how you just throw money away for no reason, oh excuse me, fractions of a second, we're all interested in hearing about it.
You're starting to foam at the mouth there a little bit man. WTF are you on about? MAMBA is recruiting. -áWhen other folks are whining about a lack of content, we go out and create it. The case of Shrodinger's Hotdropper |

RoAnnon
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
344
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 19:15:00 -
[95] - Quote
This whole thread reminds me of Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck:
Rabbit Season! Duck Season! Rabbit Season! Duck Season!
The game warden has said it's Duck Season, the argument is moot until CCP changes their mind. So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter. |

Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague The Bastion
143
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 19:21:00 -
[96] - Quote
LtCol RTButts wrote:come on, stop talking. show me how you do a vanguard without ISBoxer or any other tool/hardware. show me that is is exactly the same ratio with ALT+TAB and that you have no advantage with it. show me how you can ice min with 40 accounts without tools and haul all the ore at the same time.
JUST show it and stop talking. should be really no big deal with all your arguments.
One player alt-tabbing at 10 clients vs. 1 player using 10 ISBoxer clients will have a different income because ISBoxer make sit more efficient.
This still doesn't mean that ISBoxer accelerates the "acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."
You really have a hard time understanding what is being talked in this thread. |

Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5438
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 23:03:00 -
[97] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:No one human can switch to each individual client and issue events with the same speed and pointer/mouse accuracy as can be accomplished by one human with the aid of IsBoxer.
Actually with a little bit of thought, you can. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal & proud member of the popular gay hookup site, somethingawful.com |

Nariya Kentaya
Phoenix funds
1425
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 23:19:00 -
[98] - Quote
LtCol RTButts wrote:Adrie Atticus wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Adrie Atticus wrote: So CCP should not be the one setting and enforcing policies related to a CCP product?
Yep, it is their game and their reputation. If they want to look like double speaking liars, they're more than welcome to do that. Adrie Atticus wrote: Accelerated rate has been explained, no character gains anything at an accelerated pace, you are mixing up character and the actual player.
Controlling efficiency is not something which is giving you any gains at accelerated speed.
TL;DR: You think something is unfair and unjust, it's your responsibility to provide proof, not those who uphold the current status quo. You have yet failed to do so.
So you are saying that software, that can send key strokes and mouse clicks to other clients, is no more effiecnet than one person having to to interact with each client? Your equivocations, and CCP's, are lies. No, I'm not saying that ISboxer is not more efficient at giving commands to clients than one human alt-tabbing between clients. I did say that ISBoxer does not accelerate the "acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play." You have not found a rebuttal to this, I'll lurk around waiting. come on, stop talking. show me how you do a vanguard without ISBoxer or any other tool/hardware. show me that is is exactly the same ratio with ALT+TAB and that you have no advantage with it. show me how you can ice min with 40 accounts without tools and haul all the ore at the same time. JUST show it and stop talking. should be really no big deal with all your arguments. The entire EULA is on a character/account basis. Character A+B+C being controlled by ISBoxer will achieve the same amount of items within the same time fram as characters X+Y+Z each being controlled by a separate person.
This is the interpretation CCP has ruled with. Its the interpretation you will have to live with.
If you have a problem with it, I really dont think CCP cares, because youll find something else to whine about with players having these insurmountable "advantages" over you. |

Lykouleon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1406
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 00:26:00 -
[99] - Quote
LtCol RTButts wrote:come on, stop talking. show me how you do a vanguard without ISBoxer or any other tool/hardware. show me that is is exactly the same ratio with ALT+TAB and that you have no advantage with it. show me how you can ice min with 40 accounts without tools and haul all the ore at the same time.
JUST show it and stop talking. should be really no big deal with all your arguments.
Pretty easily, in fact. I do escalations without using any ISBoxer features other than window management, did ice/belt mining and multibox ratting for years before even getting ISBoxer, and I did it all well enough.
ISBoxer simplifies things, yes. I actually don't even use the broadcasting features and mostly just use it for window management and managing CPU/FPS across all my clients. If you'd like to see how that's done and (still) doesn't accelerate play, well...you know how to contact me. Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword |

Mag's
the united
17649
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 10:02:00 -
[100] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Yep, CCP's game, and CCP's integrity. They may damage either one as they see fit. That's good then, because the majority careless and don't see it as an issue. 
Adunh Slavy wrote:LOL, you're so full of crap. Cool. I'll take your lack of proof, as an acceptance of being wrong. At least we are getting somewhere. 
Adunh Slavy wrote:Ever hear of a thing called PLEX? Yeah, CCP's method if legitimizing RMT, where they take the profit instead of someone else. Who are the biggest RMT violators? Bots. Try again. You should really try harder. Legalized RMT? I do believe we are again, seeing your twisted version of something. Much like the whole accelerated rate scenario.
You should really get you ideas in order first, before making claims. 
I eagerly await yet more name calling and evasion. 
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
|

Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
84
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 22:13:00 -
[101] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:
Time and Effort savings aren't mentioned in the Eula in the same way you are saying time
One ISBOXER running 10 ICE miners doesn't not make a single isk more than 10 players Ice mining next to them.
He may do it by himself, he may save time over a single ice miner in getting 200 blocks saved up, but again NO FASTER than if he had 10 computers and 10 accounts, one on each computer.
more efficient, but not faster
Are you even reading your own arguments? You contradict yourself. What about the mineral miner? What about The PVPer, the ratter, the mission runner and the incursion runner? The vast majority of the UI overhead is reduced for all of them due to automation. They can run around and shoot more rocks, more rats, more targets. Could a player with out IsBoxer accomplish the same? Nope.
See, you are comparing one person, to one person, that is NOT the metric
The metric is account to account
Can 4 people playing their accounts talking on Teamspeak go thru low sec and kill things, yes, arguably better than the ISBoxer if their is logo involved
Where ISBoxer shines is when you have enough to aloha a ship, which still can be achieved by XX number of single players
Is an ISBoxing single person running 10 accounts going to be better than a single person alt-tabbing 10 accounts, **** yes he will, that is why he got ISBoxer in the first place. But does it ACCELERATE the ability to gather things in game?
NO, they are all gathered at the same rate |

Nidal Fervor
State War Academy Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 11:14:00 -
[102] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:
Time and Effort savings aren't mentioned in the Eula in the same way you are saying time
One ISBOXER running 10 ICE miners doesn't not make a single isk more than 10 players Ice mining next to them.
He may do it by himself, he may save time over a single ice miner in getting 200 blocks saved up, but again NO FASTER than if he had 10 computers and 10 accounts, one on each computer.
more efficient, but not faster
Are you even reading your own arguments? You contradict yourself. What about the mineral miner? What about The PVPer, the ratter, the mission runner and the incursion runner? The vast majority of the UI overhead is reduced for all of them due to automation. They can run around and shoot more rocks, more rats, more targets. Could a player with out IsBoxer accomplish the same? Nope. See, you are comparing one person, to one person, that is NOT the metric The metric is account to account Can 4 people playing their accounts talking on Teamspeak go thru low sec and kill things, yes, arguably better than the ISBoxer if their is logo involved Where ISBoxer shines is when you have enough to aloha a ship, which still can be achieved by XX number of single players Is an ISBoxing single person running 10 accounts going to be better than a single person alt-tabbing 10 accounts, **** yes he will, that is why he got ISBoxer in the first place. But does it ACCELERATE the ability to gather things in game? NO, they are all gathered at the same rate
By that logic, CCP should stop banning botters, because they earn isk at the same rate as any other account.
1 player botting on 5 or 10 accounts for 7 hours earns the same amount per account as another player playing the same 7 accounts manually for 7 hours. Therefore botting is no different to isboxer and should be allowed. |

LtCol RTButts
UK Corp RAZOR Alliance
25
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 11:15:00 -
[103] - Quote
you can repeat it over and over again that ISBoxer didn't accelerate any gain, and it will be still completely wrong.
you have no delay with ISBoxer compared to somebody who ALT#Tabs so you have a alpha damage without delay. you give all commands to every single account at the same time. with ISBoxer you only play 1 character and copy everything to another character.
thats plain and simple an automation.
stop comparing to single characters, you can play only one single character with full concentration and no delay. on EN24 is a nice example, the ISBoxer bomber quad. possible with ISBoxer, impossible with ALT+TAB. same with ISBoxer alpha gates, all ships align at the same time, all move at the same time, all shoot at the same time and so on. nothing you can do without such tools.
your gain is that you play only one account and several other accounts do exactly the same at exactly the same time.
you can kill stuff much more faster without any delay you have an alpha because you have no delay with automation you avoid to do the same thjing on several other accounts like open the cargobay and put ore into the bay you warp, align, decloak, jump what ever without delay .....
you gain alot with ISBoxer tools, advantages you can't do without them and you accelerate things. killing faster is also an acceleration, doesn't matter if it is a NPC or a player. and with ISBoxer bomber squads you can also switch complete fleet fights.
the EULA is talking exactly about this kind of third party software. |

Lykouleon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1410
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 15:31:00 -
[104] - Quote
LtCol RTButts wrote:you can repeat it over and over again that ISBoxer didn't accelerate any gain, and it will be still completely wrong. Did you read a word of what's actually been said. I will offer again, out of the kindness of my heart and the spirit of ~you are blue to me and I have to suffer through that every day~ to show you the error of your thinking. Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword |

Pine Marten
Viziam Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 17:10:00 -
[105] - Quote
How is it argued that isboxer does not accelerate gain for someone?
Isboxer makes it so you do not have to go to each of your pilots and command it to do something. How is that not accelerating you faster than someone else? Instead of going through 10 20 30 40 pilots each, you just have to do it for one so it DRASTICALLY reduces the time needed for you to command your own fleet. You then benefit from that.
If isboxer does that, makes 40 pilots into 1 pilot command wise, how is it argued that does not accelerate gain of isk for someone? It does not matter at all what he does with the isk, it is the fact that he gains it at an increased rate.
Compare time needed to go from one pilot window to the next to input commands with time needed to input command to 1 pilot and isboxer replicates said command to every other open window making it so you do not have to go to each window to input command.
This is not accelerated rate?
Conspiracy from within. |

ashley Eoner
326
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 21:12:00 -
[106] - Quote
Pine Marten wrote:How is it argued that isboxer does not accelerate gain for someone?
Isboxer makes it so you do not have to go to each of your pilots and command it to do something. How is that not accelerating you faster than someone else? Instead of going through 10 20 30 40 pilots each, you just have to do it for one so it DRASTICALLY reduces the time needed for you to command your own fleet. You then benefit from that.
If isboxer does that, makes 40 pilots into 1 pilot command wise, how is it argued that does not accelerate gain of isk for someone? It does not matter at all what he does with the isk, it is the fact that he gains it at an increased rate.
Compare time needed to go from one pilot window to the next to input commands with time needed to input command to 1 pilot and isboxer replicates said command to every other open window making it so you do not have to go to each window to input command.
This is not accelerated rate?
Conspiracy from within. You know you could read the last 5 pages of discussions as to how isboxer doesn't accelerate earnings on an account basis. That botting isn't the same as isboxer as botting requires no human interaction once it's set to go where as isboxer's actions can be done with hardware or other software options.
I can mine just as fast with 20 characters via alt tabbing as I could if I used isboxer or any number of cloning programs/hardware.
BTW do you have any idea how long it takes to setup 40 accounts for repeater usage? Do you have any idea how much that costs in money or time? Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to keep 40 clients synched with eve's incredibly buggy UI? If it was an easy task you'd see massive isboxer fleets taking over everything.. Reality doesn't jive with you. |

RoAnnon
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
361
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 21:55:00 -
[107] - Quote
*whispers quietly* Rabbit Season! Duck Season! So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter. |

Lothros Andastar
The Minutemen The Bastion
145
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 23:03:00 -
[108] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:I can mine just as fast with 20 characters via alt tabbing as I could if I used isboxer or any number of cloning programs/hardware. Prove it.
Video yourself mining with 20 accounts ISBoxing for 2 hours and then do it without ISBoxer for 2 hours.
If you are right, you'll have EXACTLY the same amount of Ore on both runs. |

Adunh Slavy
1541
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 23:16:00 -
[109] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:De'Veldrin wrote: No it doesn't but, please, continue to think that. The differences are measured in fractions of a second - the reaction time of the human body.
So do you use IsBoxer now? And if so, why? Do you mean to tell me you spent your money for no reason? Really. Do tell us all how you just throw money away for no reason, oh excuse me, fractions of a second, we're all interested in hearing about it. You're starting to foam at the mouth there a little bit man. WTF are you on about?
In other words, you can not answer the question with out exposing your argument for the BS that it is, so you must resort to insults.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |

Adunh Slavy
1541
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 23:19:00 -
[110] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:No one human can switch to each individual client and issue events with the same speed and pointer/mouse accuracy as can be accomplished by one human with the aid of IsBoxer. Actually with a little bit of thought, you can.
Prove it Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |
|

Adunh Slavy
1541
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 23:21:00 -
[111] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote: That doesn't still accelerate the gain of anything, being effortless and saving time is exactly the reason to use ISBoxer. This is not barred by the EULA/TOS and would be stupid if you didn't try to optimize your game play by any legal means necessary.
What I'm gathering here is that you are just angry about people being better at the game and want to ban their tools?
More insults from the crowd of liars. What a surprise. Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |

Adunh Slavy
1541
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 23:24:00 -
[112] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote: This is the interpretation CCP has ruled with. Its the interpretation you will have to live with.
If you have a problem with it, I really dont think CCP cares, because youll find something else to whine about with players having these insurmountable "advantages" over you.
Aww more insults. Is that all you have? And no, I don't have to live with it. I am the customer. Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |

Adunh Slavy
1541
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 23:26:00 -
[113] - Quote
Mag's wrote:I eagerly await yet more abuse and evasion. 
I already showed it, you can't handle it, not my problem. Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |

Lothros Andastar
The Minutemen The Bastion
145
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 01:24:00 -
[114] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Mag's wrote:I eagerly await yet more abuse and evasion.  I already showed it, you can't handle it, not my problem. Still waiting for that video proof. |

De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies The Unthinkables
2494
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 02:48:00 -
[115] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:
In other words, you can not answer the question with out exposing your argument for the BS that it is, so you must resort to insults.
No, I mean I have no idea what the hell point you're trying to make about my supposed use of ISBoxer, or how that in any way relates to the discussion at hand. Your ideas are jumping all over the place like a seagull on crack. Hold my hand and walk me through it slowly, because frankly my man, you're not making any sense.
Adunh Slavy wrote:And no, I don't have to live with it. I am the customer.
You do if you choose to continue playing the game. If, on the other hand, you're unsubscribing, then you're absolutely correct, you do not have to abide by any rules made up by CCP except the ones regarding the resale of their IP for real money.
Also, the customer isn't always right.
Actually there's a very simple question that can solve this. Answer with a simple boolean.
1. CCP, as the owner and administrator of Eve Online, has the right to create and enforce rules pertaining to the playing of said game. MAMBA is recruiting. -áWhen other folks are whining about a lack of content, we go out and create it. The case of Shrodinger's Hotdropper |

De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies The Unthinkables
2494
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 02:56:00 -
[116] - Quote
Nidal Fervor wrote:
By that logic, CCP should stop banning botters, because they earn isk at the same rate as any other account.
1 player botting on 5 or 10 accounts for 7 hours earns the same amount per account as another player playing the same 7 accounts manually for 7 hours. Therefore botting is no different to isboxer and should be allowed.
Actually botting is fundamentally different, as has already been explained at least once in this thread. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine the crucial difference between the two. As a hint, it's called botting for a reason. MAMBA is recruiting. -áWhen other folks are whining about a lack of content, we go out and create it. The case of Shrodinger's Hotdropper |

ashley Eoner
326
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 05:54:00 -
[117] - Quote
Lothros Andastar wrote:ashley Eoner wrote:I can mine just as fast with 20 characters via alt tabbing as I could if I used isboxer or any number of cloning programs/hardware. Prove it. Video yourself mining with 20 accounts ISBoxing for 2 hours and then do it without ISBoxer for 2 hours. If you are right, you'll have EXACTLY the same amount of Ore on both runs. So you want me to buy a video camera so you can get your creepy stalk on watching me play eve? That's just weird brah..
Now if you're offering to buy me a good video cam then I'd at least a go pro level ;) |

Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague The Bastion
150
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 09:28:00 -
[118] - Quote
Pine Marten wrote:How is it argued that isboxer does not accelerate gain for someone? -snip- Conspiracy from within.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Not a single character under the control of an ISBoxer entity gains at an accelerated pace. |

Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague The Bastion
150
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 09:31:00 -
[119] - Quote
Nidal Fervor wrote:By that logic, CCP should stop banning botters, because they earn isk at the same rate as any other account.
1 player botting on 5 or 10 accounts for 7 hours earns the same amount per account as another player playing the same 7 accounts manually for 7 hours. Therefore botting is no different to isboxer and should be allowed.
Botting is not allowed because it:
1) tampers with the game client, mostly hooking into same processes and DLL's to harvest information (client modification)
2) injects information to the game client (client modification)
3) performs actions without human input (automation of game play)
ISBoxer does none of these as it functions over DirectInput, just like your keyboard and mouse. It also does not hook into the process to harvest information or to post information into the client. Neither does ISBoxer perform any actions without human input. |

LtCol RTButts
UK Corp RAZOR Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 15:32:00 -
[120] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:Pine Marten wrote:How is it argued that isboxer does not accelerate gain for someone? -snip- Conspiracy from within. You are comparing apples to oranges. Not a single character under the control of an ISBoxer entity gains at an accelerated pace.
you are one player, one player only. if you play 10 characters controled via ISBoxer you are still one player and not 10.
so, you can compare player vs player and both gain the same amount of ISK when they rat with one character. but if player A is doing an incursion via ALT+TAB and player B is doing an incursion via ISBoxer the result is different for a good reason. Player A is playing 10 different characters, player B is playing only one character but 9 character are doing the same thing at the same time.
Player A is multiboxing, Player B isn't. ISBoxer is creating single multiple single players via automation under the control of a single player.
Player B is getting stuff from 9 characters at an accelerated time.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 .. 11 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |