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Lyndis Surge
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
0
   |
Posted - 2014.06.24 20:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
It seems to me that training this skill to level V would really only benefit a player if they want the extra SP on their bragging rights, considering the lengthy training time and lack of real incentive to go all the way.
So I was considering the thought of changing the skill to improve the effectiveness of Active Shield Hardener Modules in some minor way.
Why not, for each level of Tactical Shield Manipulation, add...
1% bonus to Resist Effectiveness of all Hardeners?
or
2.5% reduction in Hardener Capacitor use?
I understand that Capital Ship pilots will see to the most use/abuse of this possible update, but I could use advice on this suggestion. And ultimately, this is a lesser-priority request, mostly to incentivize training to the final level of this skill.
What is your opinion? Does this skill need to be updated? Or is it fine the way it is? |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2414
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 20:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
The skill does need it function changed, but not in the way you are describing.
It needs it function reversed, for every level it increases the % of shields that allows damage to bleed through. 5% per level as normal.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=353416&find=unread |
Joraa Starkmanir
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 20:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:The skill does need it function changed, but not in the way you are describing.
It needs it function reversed, for every level it increases the % of shields that allows damage to bleed through. 5% per level as normal.
That would be pretty bad when you have someone repping you (yourself or remote rep). With active tank (including RR) you dont want bleed through as that can get you killed while still having shield that you actualy have resist mods for. Taking dmg in shields with 80% is way better than taking the same dmg in 20% resist armor or 0% resist hull, adding a DCII still leaves shield as best ehp/hp and the layer you want to stay in when repping |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
18
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 21:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:The skill does need it function changed, but not in the way you are describing.
It needs it function reversed, for every level it increases the % of shields that allows damage to bleed through. 5% per level as normal.
only if its 1% per lvl so at lv 5 it the same as now with the skill at lv 4 with the shields bleeding at 5% left. There have been treadnaughts on the math of which is better in the long one for your tanking ability. |
Kaerakh
Surprisingly Deep Hole
336
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 21:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:The skill does need it function changed, but not in the way you are describing.
It needs it function reversed, for every level it increases the % of shields that allows damage to bleed through. 5% per level as normal.
That's hilariously broken beyond words. I shouldn't need to explain how.
Schrodinger's Hot Dropper |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2414
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 22:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kaerakh wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:The skill does need it function changed, but not in the way you are describing.
It needs it function reversed, for every level it increases the % of shields that allows damage to bleed through. 5% per level as normal. That's hilariously broken beyond words. I shouldn't need to explain how.
Because training tactical shield manipulation to level 1 and using faction mods doesn't achieve the similar results right now?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=353416&find=unread |
Kaerakh
Surprisingly Deep Hole
337
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 22:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Kaerakh wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:The skill does need it function changed, but not in the way you are describing.
It needs it function reversed, for every level it increases the % of shields that allows damage to bleed through. 5% per level as normal. That's hilariously broken beyond words. I shouldn't need to explain how. Because training tactical shield manipulation to level 1 and using faction mods doesn't achieve the similar results right now?
Not the point. 
Currently it only effects some players who have not trained the skills. What you're suggesting effects ALL players and makes shield tanking an even less viable tactic than it already is. An overwhelmingly high majority of doctrines rely on armor tanks over shield tanks for a myriad of reasons. Your suggestion merely fans those flames and makes shield tanking even more useless than it already is(due to the lack of ewar support).
Think it through next time.
Schrodinger's Hot Dropper |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
5643
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 23:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
I support the decrease capacitor use for active shield mods.
In addition... roll the "bleedthrough" damage bonus of the current skill into the hardeners themselves (to about the same level as if the current skill is at level 4)?
Powercreep, yes... but it would be quite popular and help capacitor issues on shield ships much better.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1387
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 00:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
Alternatively, we could just simplify the shield recharge rate, so it's either the same all the time, or increases the closer you get to actual 0, rather than the weird peak recharge rate at 30% or so.
I realise it's designed to do a curve and all that, but it's a hidden piece of knowledge that a lot of people won't understand because it's not documented at all how it works inside the game, you have to go outside the game to get hold of the formula and it's not the easiest maths to understand even then.
That would make 0 bleed through at any shield level actually useful. |
Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard
Templis CALSF
219
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 00:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
I would like to see operational solidifiers change to affect shield boost HP amount rather than cycle time before this. That being said, I think an adaptive shield equivalent of the armor hardener might be a fun addition to the game. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2414
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 00:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kaerakh wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Kaerakh wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:The skill does need it function changed, but not in the way you are describing.
It needs it function reversed, for every level it increases the % of shields that allows damage to bleed through. 5% per level as normal. That's hilariously broken beyond words. I shouldn't need to explain how. Because training tactical shield manipulation to level 1 and using faction mods doesn't achieve the similar results right now? Think it through next time.
It was thought through, bleed through damage gets resisted by both shield and armor resists.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=353416&find=unread |
Lyndis Surge
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 00:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Kaerakh wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:The skill does need it function changed, but not in the way you are describing.
It needs it function reversed, for every level it increases the % of shields that allows damage to bleed through. 5% per level as normal. That's hilariously broken beyond words. I shouldn't need to explain how. Because training tactical shield manipulation to level 1 and using faction mods doesn't achieve the similar results right now?
Faction mods are... not for noobs. And certainly not cost-effective unless you happen to never die in PVP. |
Kaerakh
Surprisingly Deep Hole
337
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 01:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:I support the decrease capacitor use for active shield mods.
In addition... roll the "bleedthrough" damage bonus of the current skill into the hardeners themselves (to about the same level as if the current skill is at level 4)?
Powercreep, yes... but it would be quite popular and help capacitor issues on shield ships much better.
It's kind of an interesting idea that could nerf passive regenerative shield tanks. I love passive regenerative shield tanks, but I can't help but wonder if they're too powerful for their own good. Granted however that you have to sacrifice pretty much all of your ewar abilities and usually a good portion of your DPS. Plus it's a little silly that the tactic is immune to cap warfare or at least highly resistant.
Schrodinger's Hot Dropper |
Acac Sunflyier
Control-Space
DARKNESS.
666
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 02:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
Its hard to notice this, but it does make a difference on capital ships; especially armor ships. Making the damage have to fight that last bit of shield resist and hp before bleeding into armor can make the difference to an archon surviving a doomsday; more so in the case of super capitals |
Lyndis Surge
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 06:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
Acac Sunflyier wrote:Its hard to notice this, but it does make a difference on capital ships; especially armor ships. Making the damage have to fight that last bit of shield resist and hp before bleeding into armor can make the difference to an archon surviving a doomsday; more so in the case of super capitals
This is true... but I was hoping that V could be more useful to capital and subcapital pilots alike, if even in a really small way.
But perhaps it does answer my own question of whether or not this is more of a "late-game" level of skill, compared to others. |
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
160
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 07:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
damn. you kids do nto remember the old days when there was such a thing about bleed damage. and someone cried and more cried and caldari cried. this was at the time of the when all the guns got broken...most of the hybrid guns to fix the issue of bleed damage as in removing it.
i would love it back but them shield puppies will start crying again. |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
2060
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 11:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
If there is something like bleed thru the shield to the armor, than there should be bleed thru the armor to the hull also. And if there is bleed thru armor, there should be thru shield also.
When weapons, technology, and economies mature faster than the leadership culture entrusted with them, disaster ensues.
http://i.minus.com/ibeZ0sJewvDMBN.gif =ƒÿü |
Raw Matters
NORDIC COMPANY
Northern Associates.
41
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 12:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
I don't really get why any shield-tanker would want their shields to bleed through to armor. That would force me to fit a shield-tanked ship with an armor repair system, which is totally pointless. If you want to armor-rep a shield-tanked ship, then ask for a module in place of the shield booster, that will be a shield-bleeder then instead, but please don't ask to kill shield-tanking completely by requesting a single-minded feature.
That said: I agree that TSM V is currently a waste of skill points. You need 4 only to get T2 modules, and if you'd stick to faction stuff, you could even roll with TSM 1 and never notice a thing, as shields have their maximum recharge rate way above that (aka you're dead if that skill begins having any effect). I could imagine something like the resistance-shifting hardener being implemented for shield tanking, basically an invul field that adapts to the incoming damage based on the TSM skill. Shield tanking is as well missing a passive omni-tank after the change to the invul field, so this would as well be something you could use TSM for. |
Baron' Soontir Fel
Justified Chaos
189
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 15:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
I don't hink people understand why 4 > 5 in terms of tanking.
At that level, the small amounts of hp that you bleed into armor/hull can be easily taken while leaving your more important shields which have resists and more ehp than your armor still intact.
I don't have the maths with me but I'm sure you can google it. You actually tank more with only level 4 trained because of the way shield resists are implemented and how its always better to have a little shield buffer even if you're taking armor/hull damage. |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 17:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:I don't hink people understand why 4 > 5 in terms of tanking.
At that level, the small amounts of hp that you bleed into armor/hull can be easily taken while leaving your more important shields which have resists and more ehp than your armor still intact.
I don't have the maths with me but I'm sure you can google it. You actually tank more with only level 4 trained because of the way shield resists are implemented and how its always better to have a little shield buffer even if you're taking armor/hull damage.
I think it might matter to a capital pilot. At a subcap level its like a fraction of 1EHP/s and that is literally negligible. |
Amberlin Kanenald
Ordo Drakonis
Nulli Secunda
1
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 18:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:If there is something like bleed thru the shield to the armor, than there should be bleed thru the armor to the hull also. And if there is bleed thru armor, there should be thru shield also.
no because you are comparing apples with oranges and complaining that they do not taste the same!
shield is a force-field and that can fail (aka bleeding) that's where the skill we now discussing comes in, armor is a piece of material that takes damage as it is hit and BELOW the armor is structure so by definition you need to penetrate armor fully to be able to damage the hull which in shields is totally different this is exactly why people should not compare 2 different things and start to compare |
Kaerakh
Surprisingly Deep Hole
342
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 19:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
Amberlin Kanenald wrote:Bagrat Skalski wrote:If there is something like bleed thru the shield to the armor, than there should be bleed thru the armor to the hull also. And if there is bleed thru armor, there should be thru shield also. no because you are comparing apples with oranges and complaining that they do not taste the same! shield is a force-field and that can fail (aka bleeding) that's where the skill we now discussing comes in, armor is a piece of material that takes damage as it is hit and BELOW the armor is structure so by definition you need to penetrate armor fully to be able to damage the hull which in shields is totally different this is exactly why people should not compare 2 different things and start to compare
By that same argument the armor % can still be well above 0% if I focus fire on single point, but at the same time allow for complete application of damage onto one's hull.
Bleedthrough for either system is a bad idea. Armor tanking is already as I have stated in this thread the predominant tanking system for groupings of players larger than 20 by a large margin. All your doing is further removing shield tanking as a viable option for large scale fleets. (Let me spell this out for you, it already isn't so you're ensuring that it never will be)
Schrodinger's Hot Dropper |
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