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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
79
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Posted - 2014.07.02 16:40:00 -
[31] - Quote
If we don't have a way to control stations and ultimately reprocessing, laboratories and production lines, then all this is for no reason.
high sec, you hire teams, good for everyone, but in Nullsec, if I own a station and I want to hire a team, why shouldn't I be allowed to have that team to myself?
We have heard that we can control production lines as good or better than current, but NOTHING on SiSi and so far my pleas have largely gone unanswered.
If you don't give us the tools to control our industry, then what you envision will never happen as it will largely be a FFA rather than a decision point. |
David Hakuli
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 16:49:00 -
[32] - Quote
mynnna wrote: T2 BPO holders are definitely the ones getting the short end of the stick in Crius, as it should be.
Yes. After all those players DESERVE to be penalized for..... playing the game the way ccp set it up. How dare they.
Yeah their is an issue, but as a csm rep you can at least pretend it's not typical goon sour grapes. Your five year narrative to demonize players for nothing more then playing the game is finally coming to fruition tho. GG
CCP created the t2 bpo trainwreck. It's THEIR fault. THEY are the only ones who can fix it, and do it without screwing both sides. |
Redbull Spai
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 16:50:00 -
[33] - Quote
Industry should be a Zero-Alt activity - ie one where having one well skilled character is far superior to having 10 low-skill characters doing it at once. To do this, I have a suggestion.
Introduce skills equivilant to the Retail, Wholesale, Tycoon tree for both manufacturing and invention.
For example, in Research - currently lab operation (x1) gives +1 job and adv lab operation (x8) gives +1 job - instead have lab operation (x1) +1 job/level, 'intermediate' lab operation (x4) +3 jobs per level, adv lab operation (x8) +5 jobs per level, each skill obviously with a rank 5 prerequisite of the previous skill. Manufacturing would similarly have mass production, 'intermediate' mass production, adv. mass production.
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Dread Nanana
Action Super Dupper Test Corp
11
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Posted - 2014.07.02 16:56:00 -
[34] - Quote
Seith Kali wrote:Dread Nanana wrote: UI changes are good. Invention time changes, on the other hand, who proposed that calamity?? And why do it now when there is suppose to be a "invention fix patch later"?
There are a pair of 60 odd page threads with some really insightful discussion as to why. Would you like a link?
Not really. Illogical decisions are illogical unless there is some other motive for them.
Unless the next set of changes is "ability to queue jobs like skill queues", it might as well be 6000 pages of fluff as its completely irrelevant to how invention works in EVE. But until work queues, invention time changes for modules are illogical based on their workflow.
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Danny Centauri
Manu Fortius space weaponry and trade
95
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Posted - 2014.07.02 16:56:00 -
[35] - Quote
Dread Nanana wrote:mynnna wrote:Dread Nanana wrote:As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.
If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.
If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.
Cheers...
On the contrary, the overall time (copy+invent+build) for many modules has only increased by a small amount thanks to reduction in copy times and production times alike, and the combined time is actually dramatically decreased on most ships. Combine that with the materials changes that mean that the days of 50%+ cost advantage for T2 BPO holders are over and T2 BPO holders are definitely the ones getting the short end of the stick in Crius, as it should be. Since the entire point of goonswarm CSM vote rigging has been to wreck high sec, please, at least don't treat high sec population as a bunch of idiots. 1. copying has never been important timesink for module inventions 2. I'm talking about T2 modules - ships were never easy to invent anyway 3. material costs are not the primary costs for many T2 modules - it's time and effort. 4. reduction in manufacturing times only really benefits T2 BPO holders. Not everyone flies T2 ships, but almost everyone uses T2 modules. An invention attempt of 8h may as well be 1d. UI changes are good. Invention time changes, on the other hand, who proposed that calamity?? And why do it now when there is suppose to be a "invention fix patch later"?
Most production will be driven towards POS's, because as you say production costs aren't the limiting factor especially when rapid assembly arrays only add 5% to materials rather than 20% for modules come Crius.
What this means is that copying becomes really important for T2 BPO holders as you'll need to copy your T2 BPO to manufacture from. Personally I don't have a problem with the invention times but if people generally feel that way I would suggest that T2 copy times are nerfed to reduce production. This gives T2 BPO owners the choice to take stupid risks with the BPOs for large profits or to lose out due to copy times being slower than production for T2 BPOs only.
EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players. |
Rekkr Nordgard
Imperial Reclaiming
392
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 16:59:00 -
[36] - Quote
Based on Crius, CCP's idea of "interesting and skillful" apparently means overly complex, expensive, unpredictable, and uncontrollable. Which is the exact opposite of what you want an industry system to be characterized as. |
Seith Kali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
114
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Posted - 2014.07.02 17:00:00 -
[37] - Quote
Dread Nanana wrote:Seith Kali wrote:Dread Nanana wrote: UI changes are good. Invention time changes, on the other hand, who proposed that calamity?? And why do it now when there is suppose to be a "invention fix patch later"?
There are a pair of 60 odd page threads with some really insightful discussion as to why. Would you like a link? Not really. Illogical decisions are illogical unless there is some other motive for them. Unless the next set of changes is "ability to queue jobs like skill queues", it might as well be 6000 pages of fluff as its completely irrelevant to how invention works in EVE. But until work queues, invention time changes for modules are illogical based on their workflow.
There was some excellent discussion regarding why this is not the case in the aforementioned threads. Would you like a link? Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege.-á |
Rust Connor
Industrias PapaCapim
1
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Posted - 2014.07.02 17:01:00 -
[38] - Quote
I recommend this test: - build at itamo - build at new caldari (2 jumps)
And check how much difference 2 jumps can do.
(Didnt tesy myself, just toying with the new crest endpoint that gives cost) |
Kukihara Akachi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2014.07.02 17:01:00 -
[39] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Secondly, industry should be interesting and skillful. You should feel that *you* are "good at industry", rather than just that your character is. You're good at industry because you make good decisions, you outsmart your competitors, you've invested in the right places and you're ahead of the market. You invest in the long term, and those investments pay off, and you stay involved because there's always something new to do, some new market to conquer, some new tricks to learn, some new process to master.
Lol, a good one. You just made it so that "you outsmart your competitors = join a nullsec bloc or become a renter". "Outsmarting" means "join CFC and rent a station" now. You just killed "good decisions", because there's only one decision that keeps you in competition. You've killed initiative, innovativeness, independence. I guess that next you'll move all the few remaining high/low sec things to CFC / NC. too.
CCP Greyscale wrote:The UI is on SiSi right now, and we're actively soliciting feedback. Go test it, and tell us how you find it :)
I think that he just gave you feedback: It's a horrible clickfest that makes you want to commit a sudoku.
You can still stop this failpansion from happening! |
Seith Kali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
114
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Posted - 2014.07.02 17:04:00 -
[40] - Quote
Kukihara Akachi wrote: Lol, a good one. You just made it so that "you outsmart your competitors = join a nullsec bloc or become a renter". "Outsmarting" means "join CFC and rent a station" now. You just killed "good decisions", because there's only one decision that keeps you in competition. You've killed initiative, innovativeness, independence. I guess that next you'll move all the few remaining high/low sec things to CFC / NC. too.
We really do have an excellent rental program. Would you like some details? Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege.-á |
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Leonn Trotsky
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
1
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Posted - 2014.07.02 17:13:00 -
[41] - Quote
Thank you for this post. I like them a little less wonky some times. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
3192
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 17:13:00 -
[42] - Quote
Kukihara Akachi wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Secondly, industry should be interesting and skillful. You should feel that *you* are "good at industry", rather than just that your character is. You're good at industry because you make good decisions, you outsmart your competitors, you've invested in the right places and you're ahead of the market. You invest in the long term, and those investments pay off, and you stay involved because there's always something new to do, some new market to conquer, some new tricks to learn, some new process to master. Lol, a good one. You just made it so that "you outsmart your competitors = join a nullsec bloc or become a renter". "Outsmarting" means "join CFC and rent a station" now. You just killed "good decisions", because there's only one decision that keeps you in competition. You've killed initiative, innovativeness, independence. I guess that next you'll move all the few remaining high/low sec things to CFC / NC. too. CCP Greyscale wrote:The UI is on SiSi right now, and we're actively soliciting feedback. Go test it, and tell us how you find it :) I think that he just gave you feedback: It's a horrible clickfest that makes you want to commit a sudoku. You can still stop this failpansion from happening!
Only way CCP recognizes they have a disaster on their hands is when high sec subs start dropping hard when the full impact of Crius and the upcoming invention changes come crashing down on the casual high sec industrialist who does not read the forums. Sometime, starting 2 or 3 months after Crius, when unsubbed accounts actually start lapsing, will CCP realize the folly of their ways. That is when they say to the null sec cartels "wait, you promised us an overall increase in subs when we agreed to hand you industry, what is going on?". Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group
149
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 17:17:00 -
[43] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:mynnna wrote:Dread Nanana wrote:As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.
If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.
If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.
Cheers...
On the contrary, the overall time (copy+invent+build) for many modules has only increased by a small amount thanks to reduction in copy times and production times alike, and the combined time is actually dramatically decreased on most ships. Combine that with the materials changes that mean that the days of 50%+ cost advantage for T2 BPO holders are over and T2 BPO holders are definitely the ones getting the short end of the stick in Crius, as it should be. The major difference is: Your copy slaves may need to do invention too. But they'll probably have most of the skills required already, due to you using them for manufacturing T2 things, right? (With the complaints we've been drowning in from T2 BPO holders, that suggests they're not seeing things the same way as the Original commenter)
"As long as your processes characters and accounts are set up completely different then they are, you should have no problem" Good argument, I'm going to keep that one in my notebook.
This "dev blog" was nothing but an ad / propaganda.
"and because in teams and player interactions you have the tools to change the answer if you don't like it."
I love this statement.
"and because in factor a and factor b, both out of your control, you have the tools to change the answer if you don't like it." |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
726
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 17:23:00 -
[44] - Quote
Kukihara Akachi wrote:
I think that he just gave you feedback: It's a horrible clickfest that makes you want to commit a sudoku.
You can still stop this failpansion from happening!
I, too, wish to commit to playing a numbers puzzle every time something I dislike occurs within Eve-O. GÇ£I personally refuse to help AAA take space from itself so it can become an even shittier version of itselfGÇ¥ -Grath Telkin, 2014. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
587
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 17:27:00 -
[45] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Kukihara Akachi wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Secondly, industry should be interesting and skillful. You should feel that *you* are "good at industry", rather than just that your character is. You're good at industry because you make good decisions, you outsmart your competitors, you've invested in the right places and you're ahead of the market. You invest in the long term, and those investments pay off, and you stay involved because there's always something new to do, some new market to conquer, some new tricks to learn, some new process to master. Lol, a good one. You just made it so that "you outsmart your competitors = join a nullsec bloc or become a renter". "Outsmarting" means "join CFC and rent a station" now. You just killed "good decisions", because there's only one decision that keeps you in competition. You've killed initiative, innovativeness, independence. I guess that next you'll move all the few remaining high/low sec things to CFC / NC. too. CCP Greyscale wrote:The UI is on SiSi right now, and we're actively soliciting feedback. Go test it, and tell us how you find it :) I think that he just gave you feedback: It's a horrible clickfest that makes you want to commit a sudoku. You can still stop this failpansion from happening! Only way CCP recognizes they have a disaster on their hands is when high sec subs start dropping hard when the full impact of Crius and the upcoming invention changes come crashing down on the casual high sec industrialist who does not read the forums. Sometime, starting 2 or 3 months after Crius, when unsubbed accounts actually start lapsing, will CCP realize the folly of their ways. That is when they say to the null sec cartels "wait, you promised us an overall increase in subs when we agreed to hand you industry, what is going on?".
This is my concern with the changes coming up. Not with the changes themselves but with the shift of everything to Null.
From the fanfest blurb I understand that the current retention rate is ~50% with 40 staying in hisec and 10% moving on to other areas. These changes are intended to push industry and therefore those who do industry in hisec into null to improve that 10 % (or simply to hand the main nullsec groups more isk and kill hisec industry - your choice ;) )
This is actually taking away the profitability of one of the major careers for hisec and this impacts far more players than it benefits. this doesn't make sense. I would prefer a balance of places where different careers are better, so say hisec for industry, losec for FW, WH for exploration and null for Sov and PvP. It would be better to aim to improve mobility of players through the different areas rather than make it that only one area (currently already controlled by a few large groups and with no way to break in) has any chance of being profitable in any area they choose.
I'll wait and see how it pans out and look forward to learning the new S&I system but feel very uneasy about the outcome of these changes. |
Nikita Eyrou
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 17:27:00 -
[46] - Quote
Redbull Spai wrote:Industry should be a Zero-Alt activity - ie one where having one well skilled character is far superior to having 10 low-skill characters doing it at once. To do this, I have a suggestion.
Introduce skills equivilant to the Retail, Wholesale, Tycoon tree for both manufacturing and invention.
For example, in Research - currently lab operation (x1) gives +1 job and adv lab operation (x8) gives +1 job - instead have lab operation (x1) +1 job/level, 'intermediate' lab operation (x4) +3 jobs per level, adv lab operation (x8) +5 jobs per level, each skill obviously with a rank 5 prerequisite of the previous skill. Manufacturing would similarly have mass production, 'intermediate' mass production, adv. mass production.
I'm almost tempted to say "Psssshhhhhh!" but I won't. Let CCP solve the player retention issue, then we can purge this "Alt Era" and all the problems it creates.
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DeODokktor
Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
32
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 17:45:00 -
[47] - Quote
Hmm...
I though the Principle of industry was changing to be the new Isk Sink of eve?...
I mean... You just made 85 changes that will help to sink everything. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
669
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 17:54:00 -
[48] - Quote
I, too, fear change. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1644
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Posted - 2014.07.02 17:58:00 -
[49] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The Rules: 3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.
5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
670
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Posted - 2014.07.02 17:58:00 -
[50] - Quote
-e- sorry, didn't know it got snipped by ISD. Thought the forum ate my post. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
354
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Posted - 2014.07.02 18:08:00 -
[51] - Quote
Question about inventions since so many people seem to know more about it.
What is up with 1 run T2 BPC result per invention attempt? With no ability to run multiple invention runs at once? Does that mean that if we want to keep producing 6,000 T2 Mods a week or so we'll need to install 8,000 invention jobs instead of 800 and 6,000 manufacturing jobs instead of 600? |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2065
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 18:15:00 -
[52] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:The UI is on SiSi right now, and we're actively soliciting feedback. Go test it, and tell us how you find it :)
Wake me up when you change UI of something actually important to people outside of circle of CSM nerds. Like overview for example. Crius is definitely not release I am looking forward to. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
80
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 18:15:00 -
[53] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Question about inventions since so many people seem to know more about it.
What is up with 1 run T2 BPC result per invention attempt? With no ability to run multiple invention runs at once? Does that mean that if we want to keep producing 6,000 T2 Mods a week or so we'll need to install 8,000 invention jobs instead of 800 and 6,000 manufacturing jobs instead of 600?
SiSi is broke
They have answered that one many times. I think someone said they had a fix but would be a few days before it hit SiSi |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
689
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 18:15:00 -
[54] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Love how you left out the small part about how easy and simple it is to do industry, and it will be dead easy to calculate the huge losses high sec now faces given the massive advantages null sec has been given.
It does not matter how smart a player is if his null sec competition has an insurmountable advantage in all aspects of the manufacturing process, and soon the invention process.
Yup, the smart industrialists in high sec will soon be making the only economic decision that matters: Get fitted with a null sec yoke, or quit all your industrial accounts.
Going to ignore a chunk of your insanity.
You do realize that 0.0 SHOULD have an advantage over high sec. It should have a huge advantage in being able to make stuff cheaper, faster, better, etc.
Why? Because unlike hs 0.0 is controlled by players who should be able to adjust the prices to fit there needs, its riskier operations in null, and it should be more efficient in null.
Honestly, I never understand your rambling. 0.0 should do things better, more efficiently, and you should be able to earn a crap load more isk then empire. That's kinda the point of null. 10 years of eve... yea i'm an addict |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1459
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Posted - 2014.07.02 18:18:00 -
[55] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Gilbaron wrote:it's a bit sad to see how much potential is lost because of bad corp mechanics.
i really hope that this is one of the next steps in the big eve development plan. It is :)
<3
pretty much my favorite game designer now GRRR Goons |
Gynax Gallenor
Conquering Darkness
5
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Posted - 2014.07.02 18:22:00 -
[56] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Let's assume that, for the moment, you are correct. In the meantime, while you direct CCP on the changes to invention, while invention remains as it is, his comments are accurate.
But in reality, we all know that null sec is going to get massive advantages in invention, just as they were given in the manufacturing process, so the whole point becomes moot, unless you are talking null sec industrialist competing with other null sec industrialists.
Here is something I have never understood about your complaints, Dinsdale, why do you have a problem with nullsec being better than highsec?
I have a small industrial base in highsec, but I honestly think that nullsec should have massive advantages over highsec, since it requires that you take and hold the space, and there is always the chance that your territory will be taken out from under you.
Do you not that that in many cases, the balance of highsec is off?
Fly Reckless, cos flying safe is no damn fun!
http://flyreckless.com/newsite/ |
Dread Nanana
Action Super Dupper Test Corp
11
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Posted - 2014.07.02 18:29:00 -
[57] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Question about inventions since so many people seem to know more about it.
What is up with 1 run T2 BPC result per invention attempt? With no ability to run multiple invention runs at once? Does that mean that if we want to keep producing 6,000 T2 Mods a week or so we'll need to install 8,000 invention jobs instead of 800 and 6,000 manufacturing jobs instead of 600?
The output will be 10 run T2 BPCs. But your invention times, as is, will go up from 1h 15min per invention attempt on a POS, to somewhere between 4h to 14+h for modules...
So if you wish to make 6000 T2 modules a week, you'll need 600 T2 BPCs, requiring about 1200 invention attempts. Since you realistically will only be able to do 10 jobs or so a day, you will only need to have 17 characters doing inventions. and about 8 manufacturing characters.
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Maenth
The Thirteen Provinces Tentationes Patronus
5
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 18:36:00 -
[58] - Quote
I liked this dev blog post. It was good to see the grand view expressed clearly and in a whole unifying view, rather than having to have watched the fanfest videos and read all the dev blogs to understand why CCP is changing things the way they are. |
Maenth
The Thirteen Provinces Tentationes Patronus
6
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 18:46:00 -
[59] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:The UI is on SiSi right now, and we're actively soliciting feedback. Go test it, and tell us how you find it :) Wake me up when you change UI of something actually important to people outside of circle of CSM nerds. Like overview for example. Crius is definitely not release I am looking forward to.
I am totally outside of the circle of CSM nerds, and I am REALLY looking forward to the new industry UI (in addition to its functionality) ... do you even Industry? XD
Seriously it can't get here soon enough, so much clicking!! >_< |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1405
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 19:18:00 -
[60] - Quote
Dread Nanana wrote:The output will be 10 run T2 BPCs. But your invention times, as is, will go up from 1h 15min per invention attempt on a POS, to somewhere between 4h to 14+h for modules... So if you wish to make 6000 T2 modules a week, you'll need 600 T2 BPCs, requiring about 1200 invention attempts. Since you realistically will only be able to do 10 jobs or so a day, you will only need to have 17 characters doing inventions. and about 8 manufacturing characters. However, you will only need (assuming 50% success rate for easy maths) 4 T1 BPC's with 300 runs each, or if you want to maximise line use on just the one module for a character, 10 T1 BPC's with 120 runs each. Vs needing 1200 copies with 300 runs each like you currently do to get a max run T2 BPC. So there are massive time savings involved also.
Additionally if you bother reading the thread on this question, job queueing is a strong possibility 'soon'. Also you are complaining about needing 2 inventing characters for 1 manufacturing character....... Or otherwise known as 1 inventing alt + inventing on the manufacturing character as well to pack out their lines. |
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