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Nose' Feliciano
32
   |
Posted - 2014.07.03 23:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
Im running in low sec.....I get randomly targeted by some other ship neara gate.....
...I know he is up to no good so I hit my ECM on him.....
Now, becuase I ECM'd him without him firing a shot, I get the bad-guy blinky on me. 
Seems to me this is messed up. I was acting defensively where split second decisions count...yet EVE doesnt see it that way and marks me as the aggressor.
Why?
BTW....he warp scrambled and fired on me but my 2nd ECM on him took and I got away.....blinky and all.
Ladies, you know what they say about guys with big noses right? Heh-heh!!
That's right, it means they are either Jewish or Italian.
:P |
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples
League of Infamy
724
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 23:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
A pre-emptive strike is still a first strike; making you the aggressor.
For all you know he just wanted to love you and cargo scan or do other non-intrusive things to you 
Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
Nose' Feliciano
32
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 23:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
Seraph Essael wrote:For all you know he just wanted to love you and cargo scan or do other non-intrusive things to you
ROFLMAO!!!!!!
Oh god, I think I just peed myself laughing so hard. 
Ladies, you know what they say about guys with big noses right? Heh-heh!!
That's right, it means they are either Jewish or Italian.
:P |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
959
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 00:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Gate aggression is a mini-game.
In lowsec, the aggressor takes the gate guns.
Both in low and null, if you aggress you cannot jump for 1 minute (doesn't matter who aggressed first in this case).
That opens up a whole lot of possibilities.
In your case, the bad guy was probably waiting for you to make the first move, in order to react accordingly.
Since you had ECM, and (I presume) you didn't want to kill him, and he obviously wasn't able to alpha you (kill you with a single shot), in that case you probably shouldn't have aggressed first.
TL;DR: the mechanics are there to be played with |
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples
League of Infamy
728
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 00:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
Also, when you're over 150km from Lowsec gates or stations, the (respective) guns won't fire on you
Good fun to play with people who don't know that.
Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
Repeat 0ffenders
959
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 00:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Seraph Essael wrote:Also, when you're over 150km from Lowsec gates or stations, the (respective) guns won't fire on you Good fun to play with people who don't know that. Such as me, until now. Thanks
Is it exacly 150km? |
stoicfaux
5032
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 00:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Relax. He was cargo scanning you to see what ammo/consumables you used so he could determine what to haul to your low-sec trade hub, i.e. it was nothing but market research.
/there_are_a_lot_of_decaffeinated_brands_on_the_market_today_that_are_just_as_tasty_as_the_real_thing
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
|
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples
League of Infamy
728
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 00:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Seraph Essael wrote:Also, when you're over 150km from Lowsec gates or stations, the (respective) guns won't fire on you Good fun to play with people who don't know that. Such as me, until now. Thanks Is it exacly 150km?
I always wait until I'm 155km but as far as I know, yeah, 150. If you know an empty lowsec system grab an alt and experiment with it
Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
Chopper Rollins
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
882
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 00:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
Another casualty of the baffling ordeal known as empire aggro mechanics.
I've seen "leet" pvp-bros get toasted by empire gate-n-station gun mechanics, as well as lowsec <-5 pilots who jump in haste into a hisec system and suddenly remember OH YEAH CONCORD.
Bottom line: get out of Empire.
Edit: you can earn gate gun aggro, warp to a ping just off grid from gate, warp back and blaze away without any more hassle from em, if the other guy redboxed you that is, oh it's full of complex details like a great beautiful garden.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good. |
Durbon Groth
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
103
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 00:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
I imagine without this rule there wold be legions of blackbirds and falcons at every fight, waiting to pre-emptively jam the enemy fleet before it attacks. Also where would you draw the line? Would you be able to preemptively tracking disrupt, web or paint? How about neuts, they don't do any damage so why not? The line is where it is because it defines aggression not only as damage but also about impairing an enemy ship in any way. If you like to look at it from a lore point of view, the activity the gate guns and the concord cams witnessed was of you locking and jamming another ship sitting at the gate. You were definitely at fault. |
Nose' Feliciano
37
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 01:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Durbon Groth wrote:You were definitely at fault.
Yeah, I know. but it still sucks.
If a ship attempts to target you first, and you target him faster with a countermeasure, it should not count against you.
Targeting means just that...you are in their cross-hairs. A countermeasure would be appropriate even if a shot is not fired.
Ladies, you know what they say about guys with big noses right? Heh-heh!!
That's right, it means they are either Jewish or Italian.
:P |
Chopper Rollins
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
884
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 03:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
With the use of a passive targeting module you could be in their cross-hairs without knowing it.
What then?
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good. |
Nose' Feliciano
37
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 03:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
Chopper Rollins wrote:With the use of a passive targeting module you could be in their cross-hairs without knowing it.
What then?
True. It would not then matter becuase I would be unaware of it. But if Im aware of it, I should be able to protect myself by blinding them.
Ladies, you know what they say about guys with big noses right? Heh-heh!!
That's right, it means they are either Jewish or Italian.
:P |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
1884
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 03:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
Because no one uses ECM offensively, right?
.. when everything else is gone .. |
Nikolai Lachance
Happy Wheels Logistics
118
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 03:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nose' Feliciano wrote:Now, becuase I ECM'd him without him firing a shot, I get the bad-guy blinky on me. Seems to me this is messed up. I was acting defensively where split second decisions count...yet EVE doesnt see it that way and marks me as the aggressor. Why?
ECM isn't a defensive module. It's pure offense. It prevents the target from locking anything, which severely handicaps their ability to do anything. This is why there are ships like the Blackbird and Scorpion who's job in a fleet is to jam everything, and why they tend to get primaried.
|
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
1884
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 03:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Seraph Essael wrote:Also, when you're over 150km from Lowsec gates or stations, the (respective) guns won't fire on you Good fun to play with people who don't know that. Such as me, until now. Thanks Is it exacly 150km?
Sentry guns deal 176dps per gun, 80em-80ex-140ki-140th damage every 2.5 seconds; 500+50km range, 1000km targeting range, 8 max locked targets; 150km engagement range in lowsec, grid range in hisec. 100m turret resolution, 0.4rad/s tracking.
On most stargates and stations you will find a CONCORD billboard, which will fire missiles for ~19dps, though these can be destroyed (do not shoot in hisec!). Destroyed billboards respawn at downtime.
The total DPS you'll need to tank at a lowsec gate is 371, or 352 if you destroy the billboard.
That was ISD IonCharge satiating my curiousity about the gate gun thing.
.. when everything else is gone .. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
2027
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 03:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
Nose' Feliciano wrote:If a ship attempts to target you first, and you target him faster with a countermeasure, it should not count against you.
You don't "target with a countermeasure".
You target and then you act.
All he did was target. You both targeted and acted against him. Even though you see ECM as a defensive module, the game isn't to know what your purpose is in activating a module against another player. ECM can be used, very much as an offensive tool.
Quote:Targeting means just that...you are in their cross-hairs. A countermeasure would be appropriate even if a shot is not fired.
No, a countermeasure is only valid when a shot is fired.
There is nothing to counter up to that point.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
. -á<- Argue this, not this ->-á( -í-¦ -£-û -í-¦) |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5091
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 06:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nose' Feliciano wrote:Im running in low sec.....I get randomly targeted by some other ship neara gate..... ...I know he is up to no good so I hit my ECM on him..... Now, becuase I ECM'd him without him firing a shot, I get the bad-guy blinky on me. Seems to me this is messed up. I was acting defensively where split second decisions count...yet EVE doesnt see it that way and marks me as the aggressor. Why? BTW....he warp scrambled and fired on me but my 2nd ECM on him took and I got away.....blinky and all.
Some of the less discriminate ECM will get you in a little bit of trouble, especially when it hits something else, like a gate.
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Riyria Twinpeaks
Reasonable People
Of Sound Mind
2010
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 06:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
It's simple:
ECM is an offensive action. It messes with the other ship, severely impairing how it functions.
If you do it first, you are the aggressor.
I don't even know what's there to discuss.
Offensive actions can only be counted as defense when they are in reaction to an offensive action targeted at you.
So it's for you to decide: Is that split second between ECMing a possible aggressor before he shoots as compared to after he aggresses more important than the difference between gate guns shooting at you rather than him? Then do it.
Else don't. If he shoots first he already is at a disadvantage.
If you see someone targeting you and he isn't shooting immediately, isn't it even highly likely he doesn't want to shoot at you anyway? Why else give you time to prepare?
In any case you have time to take any number of preventive measures which are not considered aggressive but will help you in case you are attacked after all:
Moving back to gate, overheating hardeners, moving to your optimal distance, aligning out, warping out..
Edit: targeting him in return, too, of course. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers
Fidelas Constans
880
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 07:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
so if he jams you first with intentions to shoot you, no flag for the jam? |
Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
125
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 08:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
Seraph Essael wrote:Also, when you're over 150km from Lowsec gates or stations, the (respective) guns won't fire on you Good fun to play with people who don't know that.
It actually is a 150 KM from the guns, not the gate or station. |
Grunanca
Doughboys
Overload Everything
267
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 08:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
Nose' Feliciano wrote:Im running in low sec.....I get randomly targeted by some other ship neara gate..... ...I know he is up to no good so I hit my ECM on him..... Now, becuase I ECM'd him without him firing a shot, I get the bad-guy blinky on me. Seems to me this is messed up. I was acting defensively where split second decisions count...yet EVE doesnt see it that way and marks me as the aggressor. Why? BTW....he warp scrambled and fired on me but my 2nd ECM on him took and I got away.....blinky and all.
I know real life comparisons are bad... But ill do it anyway this time. A guy walks up to you on the street. he stares into your face and treatens you. A: you try to get away from the situation and only use violence if he starts. B: You punch him in the face and end up in jail yourself, as he claims he would have never touched you. Agression works the same way in EVE. You have to actually do the crime to get the punishment. |
Please No Gankarino
Pain Train Chain Gang
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 08:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
Defensive: You can't target ME
Offensive: You can't target ANYTHING.
Only one of these mechanics exist. |
Chopper Rollins
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
885
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 09:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
Grunanca wrote:...
I know real life comparisons are bad... But ill do it anyway this time. A guy walks up to you on the street. he stares into your face and treatens you. A: you try to get away from the situation and only use violence if he starts. B: You punch him in the face and end up in jail yourself, as he claims he would have never touched you. Agression works the same way in EVE. You have to actually do the crime to get the punishment.
Nothing in life is that clear cut. You could drop him, he presses charges, but it turns out he's well known to the police as a fight starting threatening guy.
I went to school with a guy who flattened a skinhead who did exactly that, with the staring and threats in front of witnesses. After the flattening, Mr Skinhead was hoisted and dropped onto a fire hydrant. Schoolfriend visited him in hospital and warned him not to even think of vengeance of any kind. Left flowers.
As usual, the best stories are the happiest ones.
Yellow boxing is no threat in EvE.
ECM is aggro.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good. |
Nami Kumamato
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
221
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 09:37:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nose' Feliciano wrote:Durbon Groth wrote:You were definitely at fault. Yeah, I know. but it still sucks. If a ship attempts to target you first, and you target him faster with a countermeasure, it should not count against you. Targeting means just that...you are in their cross-hairs. A countermeasure would be appropriate even if a shot is not fired.
He simply targeted you and scanned you (basically didn't do nothing wrong towards you).
You assigned ECM to him - you were the first to engage aggressively.
What are you missing ?
"And now my ship is oh so cloaked and fit
It never felt so good, I never felt so hid"
- Ramona McCandless, Untitled |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
1262
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 14:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
Nose' Feliciano wrote:Im running in low sec.....I get randomly targeted by some other ship neara gate..... ...I know he is up to no good so I hit my ECM on him..... Now, becuase I ECM'd him without him firing a shot, I get the bad-guy blinky on me. Seems to me this is messed up. I was acting defensively where split second decisions count...yet EVE doesnt see it that way and marks me as the aggressor. Why? BTW....he warp scrambled and fired on me but my 2nd ECM on him took and I got away.....blinky and all.
Working as intended-¦. Just because he yellow boxes you does not mean he agresses. You agressed by activatig ECM. He played you...just keep calm and and wait until he aggresses.
TunDraGon is recruiting!
"Also, your boobs  " -á
CCP Eterne, 2012
|
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples
League of Infamy
731
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 16:15:00 -
[27] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Seraph Essael wrote:Also, when you're over 150km from Lowsec gates or stations, the (respective) guns won't fire on you Good fun to play with people who don't know that. It actually is a 150 KM from the guns, not the gate or station.
The more you know Cheers.
Although I have engaged 150 off a Gate before in Zinoo, within 150 of the guns and never got gate gun agression (even though I should have). I'll have to have a play around with the mechanics.
Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
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