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Things That Can Be Done About The Bellicose

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Jet Collins	Posted - 2006.06.29 17:20:00 - [31] Ture the Bellicose was a pretty nice ship before they nerfed the drone bay. Since this change I hanv't really follown the ship. Sure its pretty sucky right now if your trying to use it by yourself. If yoru using it in a gang well its much better. So this is what I have to suggest based on what we have: 1: we have the Vigil which has a TP but is not as good as the Bellicose. 2: we have the t2 versions that have the same TP bonuse; So one could say that why do we need the Bellicose to have a TP as well when there are cheaper ships and better ships than can do it. So we could jsut remove it and give it a launcher Rof Bonuse. But there are also many that say that the TP is still very good and useful for this ship it just needs something else. Well things that would be very nice would be if we keep the TP bouse is give it back its Drone bay for one. That would help its damage outup greatly for those how use it alone, and the drones cn help support the gang if in a gang, or Give it an extra mid slot. This would help it shield tank for those alone or ganged but also could be used or more EW/TPing. Either one of these changes I persoanlly done not think would make this ship better than the other but would make it much more appealing as a suport/low cost usefull ship. PS. 1. Why is an Amarr making this post. 2. Testy so glad you apporve.. and for the second time use your damn Minmatar main!!! *Jet only loves minmatar
Ysolde Xen	Posted - 2006.06.29 17:28:00 - [32] The way I see it, the Minmatar's EW skill is offensive not defensive. The other race's EWar cruisers have superior tanking becasue their EW neuters the opponent's capacity to damage. Minmatar's EW does not help with tanking at all, only giving an edge by helping you kill them faster. Ergo in order to capitalise on this, the Belli needs to have a good damage output as it's defences will certainly be lacking combared to the other EWars. I like the drone/missile boat plan on the breacher - Typhoon road. The Rupture already fulfills the Arty role and the Belli has been changed so often it's now just a hazy mess with no nice niche. ----- It's not a crap ship, you're just flying it all wrong.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.06.29 17:53:00 - [33] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 29/06/2006 17:55:51 No one is in any doubt that the Bellicose needs a bump, people will differ in how and how much. This is my way which the op called "the drone carrier missile spammer", you do realise you used "drone carrier" and "missile spammer" in both ship changes but ordered different... Anyway on with the post. --------------- The Problem The main problem I have with the Bellicose is the Minmatar theory of damage, speed, hit and run and that the TP bonus does very little to help that as its own damage output is very poor. BB does a great job of ECM, which is CaldariÆs thing and can fit heavy missiles. Arbitrator does nice damage at all range using its drones. Finally the Celestis, which can fit rails no problem. This is all without fitting modÆs. All of these ships can hit at range while still doing their primary role of EW. The Bellicose however can not even fit its smallest arty and its two other high slots with ranged weapons (Heavy Missiles). The other threeÆs main defence is EW, so having a weak tank is negated by that, but the Bellicose (the name actually means aggressive, warlike and combative to pick a few terms) and the Minmatar way is weapons and damage. The problem arises that the BellicoseÆs tank is weak and has no EW to help its defence so getting close with AC's is a very bad idea. So what do we have... A ship that has to fit close range weapons (or use 1 of its 3 low slots to add a fitting mod reducing the tank more), no defensive EW and a weak tank. Lets compare fittings: Bellicose û 718.75 PG / 312.5 CPU Blackbird û 656.25 PG / 500 CPU Arbitrator û 718.75 PG / 375.0 CPU Celestis û 718.75 PG / 406.25 CPU So the Bellicose is meant to fit an extra weapon with the same PG as the other turret/armour ships, it has the lowest CPU so using its missile slots hurtsà It is totally gimped. The others get to use heavy missiles, rails, drones with range of 50km along with beams while a 650mm fitted Bellicose has to use Assault launchers in its ôextraö high slot to be able to fit a defence. A Way to fix the Bellicose. Change primary weapon system to missiles. This way it can hit at range to help its tank. It will also have slightly better damage against smaller targets if using TPÆs. To do this I would change it from 3-3 split to 4-2 with 4 hardpoints being missiles. Change damage bonus to ROF to missiles. With current PG/CPU of 718.75 MW and 312.5 tf is designed for turret, I would change the starting stats to give after max fitting skills: 700MW and 400 CPU. With that you could fit: Heavy Missile Launcher I x4, Drone Link Aug 10MN Afterburner I, Target Painter I x2, Warp Disruptor I Leaving 237 PG and 137 CPU for 3 lowsà. Enough for a med rep or plate with resistances/damage mods. ThatÆs no more than any other ship could do, a BB and Celestis can fit a 800mm plate, a Arbitrator can do 800mm + Med repà. Let the Bellicose be able to do that to. I would also up its drone bay, make it 50m3 with no bonus maybe even to 75m5 to fit lights + med's. With the 50m3 drone bay and 4 heavy missiles it will finally be a useful ship and be in the style of Minmatar. To compare it to the Arbitrator: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0606/bellyVSarb.JPG No guns/missiles on the Arbitrator yet with only its drones its damage is not far behind the drones and heavy missiles of a Bellicose. Surely that damage output is balanced, the drones of that Arbitrator change damage amount very little no matter what the sig but against a frigate a Bellicose would require 2x TP to get its Heavy Missiles close to the Arbitrator. The Arbitrator would still be a better tank like Amarr should with the Bellicose being more agile and faster to hopefully control the battle a bit more and avoid damage. Make the Bellicose live up to its name and not be laughed at when asked what ship your bringing to the gang!
Ysolde Xen	Posted - 2006.06.30 09:01:00 - [34] (Sodding forums keep not working on me ) I like Mila's workings and proposal above. /signed ----- It's not a crap ship, you're just flying it all wrong.
Jon Xylur	Posted - 2006.06.30 12:06:00 - [35] I approve-iate! Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, and not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
mr passie	Posted - 2006.06.30 13:28:00 - [36] As a complete minni-atic, I must say I've never flown a bellicose. I love minnie because of the general underpoweredness, hehehehe. Saying that I'm off to buy a bellicose now Side note, minmatar has recieved quite a bit of love lately. I would like to give a general warning to the pro minmatar posters on this forum. If this goes on, we'll start to sound like raven whiners ----------------------------------------------- I'm a reversed paranoid schizophrenic. I have voices in my head I just think I don't hear them
Sammy Xan	Posted - 2006.06.30 13:55:00 - [37] Add a 90% PG reduction to cruise missile launchers as a hidden bonus, rotate the "sails" 45¦/-45¦ each (so they look like an X, not the current H shape) - ship fixed.
Leshrac Shepherd	Posted - 2006.06.30 23:48:00 - [38] Originally by: Jet Collins PS. 1. Why is an Amarr making this post. I might be amarr, but sadly I decided not to train amarr ships at a very young age, now I can fly minnie dreads but the biggest amarr thing I can fly is a punisher (or bestower). Staying in my race would have avoided me a lot of trouble and I would have spent way less time fiddling with setups and whining on the forums and more time playing, but the decision was taken a long time ago and it is too late to go back now.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.06.30 23:52:00 - [39] The bellicose is definately a underpowered ship. There are several reasons for this. First is the nature of the EW it uses, which due to it's nature cannot be used defensively. All other EW ships can use their EW to defend the ship that uses the EW (admittedly tracking disruptors don't do much against missile ships), however the bellicose has to depend on resistances/shields/armor instead. In order to make the ship more viable several things must be done: 1. Change the slot layout from 5/4/3 to 4/4/4. The reason this is needed is that as noted above, EW cannot be used as a defensive measure on this ship. Therefore, assuming the mid slots are full of target painters, that means that the ship will be armor tanked. Currently with only 3 slots it is difficult to get a decent, even cruiser level tank going on this ship. Making the situation worse is the fact that putting an armor tank on this ship ties up all the low slots, leaving none available to use grid mods on, which in turn... 2. The powergrid on the ship is grossly inadequate and needs boosting. Currently the only setup, when an armor tank is mounted, that can be supported is one that uses autocannons. In general the use of EW ships at short range is a less than ideal because it increases the vunerablilty of the ship. The bellicose, with it's already subpar defenses, comes out even worse than the other EW cruisers because of this. The grid on the ship should be boosted so that it is possible to support a 650mm setup on the ship without the use of grid modules, or at a minimum using only one. 3. The armor and shields of the ship need to be reallocated. Currently it has nearly exactly the same amount of shield and armor hitpoints, 969 armor and 1000 shields. This makes the ship more vunerable than it should be for a ship that logic says needs to be tanked in general for survival and armor tanked in specific to perform it's designated role. The armor amount on the ship should be increased to 1100 and shields decreased to 868 at a minimum to accomplish this task. 4. The lock range on the ship is far too low for it to effectively use the EW modules it is designed to use. Currently without skills the lock range on the bellicose is 45km, with long range targeting 4 this becomes 51 km. However, the base optimal of a target painter II is 30km, with a 60km falloff, giving a effective range of about 90km or so. In other words, in order to actually be able to use the target painter out to maximum range, you need to mount 2 sensor boosters. This severely nerfs the effectiveness of the ship as it only has 4 mid slots to begin with. EW platforms should have more powerful sensors than normal ships to be able to use the modules that they were built to use effectively. This is currently not the case. When you take into account any tier 2 skills that increase the optimal and falloff of the target painter, the situation becomes even more acute - almost to the point of being funny :) In fact, the bellicose has the exact same lock range as a vigil, which is a frigate. Lock range should be extended to 65-70km so that it can use the target painters effectively. 5. Consider changing the ship from a damage bonus to optimal range bonus. If you're out to do DPS in a bellicose you need your head examined. The ability to hit with artillery from range while painting that target however, would be a useful combination. If these 5 things were done (IMO the lock range is the absolute worst one) you might see a lot more bellicoses around, and perhaps it might do justice to that nice new spiffeh model that was just unveiled. Raptor and Ares Fix
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2006.07.01 00:44:00 - [40] No missile ship. Absolutely not. Already the Typhoon while it has good damage is unfair to paying customers that choose to play minmatar and thus have to train longer to get what other races get. If you make this a missile boat once again minmatar will be unfairly treated. If you give minmatar several missile ships, then you have effectively split the race in 1/2 where us turret pilots wont be effective with 1/2 our ships. Absolutely no missile ships for minmatar. If anything give us some ANTI missile technology like 5% signature reduction per lvl. If there were no webbifiers, a TP would be a very good module. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
Harum Skarum	Posted - 2006.07.01 02:14:00 - [41] Boost plz. Give it 5 launcher slots and a 5% missile rof bonus. According to its description the Bellicose is a "combat juggernaut" after all.
Chief Seattle	Posted - 2006.07.01 04:34:00 - [42] yes this ship is a horrible ship cuz i use rupture and stabber for all cruiser PVP and i took one look at the bellicose and never even opened it's info again this definitely needs some boosting to make it at least usable
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.07.01 11:29:00 - [43] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 01/07/2006 11:29:51 Originally by: Imhotep Khem No missile ship. Absolutely not. Already the Typhoon while it has good damage is unfair to paying customers that choose to play minmatar and thus have to train longer to get what other races get. If you make this a missile boat once again minmatar will be unfairly treated. If you give minmatar several missile ships, then you have effectively split the race in 1/2 where us turret pilots wont be effective with 1/2 our ships. Absolutely no missile ships for minmatar. If anything give us some ANTI missile technology like 5% signature reduction per lvl. If there were no webbifiers, a TP would be a very good module. Seriously, what do you have against missiles? And don't make it sounds like you speak for "paying customers that choose to play minmatar". I think it is unfair that we get a few missile ships dotted around with no real path between them. Breacher -> ??? -> Typhoon. Breacher -> Hound ??? -> Rapier We have to train everything anyway, so why not have a ship that can make use of the missile skill tree? There will still be the Stabber and Rupture... All the other races have two paths: Caldari: Kestrel -> Caracal -> Raven Merlin -> Moa -> New Tier 3 BS They even have T2 ships split between turrets and missiles, they have a choice and I have never heard them complain about that choice. -------------- If you want to just fix TP's and not the Bellicose (even with TP it is still to weak with no defensive EW or tanking ability) Increase the sig size of all weapons. Increase the % that TP's increase sigs. This would slightly affect locking times since the TP's effect is larger, game breaking? I wouldn't say so. At the minute TP's only affect ships in terms of damage that are smaller than the gun which is a limited number (ECM and dampeners affect ALL ships). Some ships are bigger or just under the sig of there classes size weapon so TP's don't affect them. Make all ships smaller than the gun size and the effect TP's have will be greater and more useful.
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2006.07.01 13:18:00 - [44] Nothing against missiles. Missiles rock. However, with missiles, turrets, and drones a new character could get into a Stabber or Rupture much faster and be much more effective. Minmatar is a mismash now. Yet look at our best ships. Tempest, Rupture, Claw, Rifter. Turret centric. So maybe I should rephrase it. No missiles AND drones. Focus on one or the other. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
Tarnish Katharr	Posted - 2006.07.01 14:04:00 - [45] Edited by: Tarnish Katharr on 01/07/2006 14:05:49 Some of my younger corp mates have come up with an ingenius use for the Bellicose. They use it as an anti-interceptor/AF/frigate ship. Because quite honestly, what self respecting inty pilot isn't going to pass up an easy kill like a Bellicose right? I know I wouldn't. If an inty is coming after you, warp to a gate or a station at 15km and start slow boating. They'll run in to get a web on you, then you get to have fun. Highs * 2x 200mm Autocannons * 3x Assault Launchers Mids * 1x Multispectrum ECM * 1x Warp Disruptor * 2x Webs Lows * 2x 800mm Plate * 1x Medium Armor Repairer Drones * 4x Hammerheads This works great for most of the "crap at PvP" ships. Augorors, Exquorers, Ospreys, Scythes, etc... ------------------- Stop whining!
Leshrac Shepherd	Posted - 2006.07.01 14:24:00 - [46] Originally by: Tarnish Katharr Edited by: Tarnish Katharr on 01/07/2006 14:05:49 Some of my younger corp mates have come up with an ingenius use for the Bellicose. They use it as an anti-interceptor/AF/frigate ship. Because quite honestly, what self respecting inty pilot isn't going to pass up an easy kill like a Bellicose right? I know I wouldn't. If an inty is coming after you, warp to a gate or a station at 15km and start slow boating. They'll run in to get a web on you, then you get to have fun. Highs * 2x 200mm Autocannons * 3x Assault Launchers Mids * 1x Multispectrum ECM * 1x Warp Disruptor * 2x Webs Lows * 2x 800mm Plate * 1x Medium Armor Repairer Drones * 4x Hammerheads This works great for most of the "crap at PvP" ships. Augorors, Exquorers, Ospreys, Scythes, etc... While fun, this is not what I'd call innovative. The battlebadgers, the tanked augorors, the fake mining ospreys and the seemingly innocent rocket kessies are pretty old tricks : D
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.07.01 15:14:00 - [47] Originally by: Tarnish Katharr Edited by: Tarnish Katharr on 01/07/2006 14:05:49 Some of my younger corp mates have come up with an ingenius use for the Bellicose. They use it as an anti-interceptor/AF/frigate ship. Because quite honestly, what self respecting inty pilot isn't going to pass up an easy kill like a Bellicose right? I know I wouldn't. If an inty is coming after you, warp to a gate or a station at 15km and start slow boating. They'll run in to get a web on you, then you get to have fun. Highs * 2x 200mm Autocannons * 3x Assault Launchers Mids * 1x Multispectrum ECM * 1x Warp Disruptor * 2x Webs Lows * 2x 800mm Plate * 1x Medium Armor Repairer Drones * 4x Hammerheads This works great for most of the "crap at PvP" ships. Augorors, Exquorers, Ospreys, Scythes, etc... Which is exactly my point, atm the only reason to use it over the Rupture and Stabber is for that extra mid slot to dual web frigates. You had to fit assaults and frigate sized guns ignoring the ships damage and TP bonus to fit a tank in a specialized role. Give it the missile bonus and change of fitting/slot layout and you'll see it being used a lot more as a viable alternative to the other two turret cruisers in less specialized situations.
Ysolde Xen	Posted - 2006.07.02 10:38:00 - [48] There's also the ECM Belli which does similar things to that anti AF/Inty one, which is quite effective even in the hands of a younger pilot, but once again it's not really what the Bellicose was meant to be there for and doesn't take advantage of its bonuses. It's rather telling that in order to make a ship usable you have to go completely sideways and contrary to its 'indended' setup. ----- It's not a crap ship, you're just flying it all wrong.
Awox	Posted - 2006.07.02 13:44:00 - [49] I think it needs more pg/cpu and another midslot tbh :)
Leshrac Shepherd	Posted - 2006.07.04 16:39:00 - [50] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Which is exactly my point, atm the only reason to use it over the Rupture and Stabber is for that extra mid slot to dual web frigates. You had to fit assaults and frigate sized guns ignoring the ships damage and TP bonus to fit a tank in a specialized role. Give it the missile bonus and change of fitting/slot layout and you'll see it being used a lot more as a viable alternative to the other two turret cruisers in less specialized situations. It is very sad that the things this ship does well, it doesn't do them because it is good (it is actually worse than, let's say, a stabber at killing frigs) but because everyone will think you are a n00b and underestimate you when flying it. As funny as it might sound, a ship that is only good because of how bad people believe it is, is not really good in itself.
voidvim	Posted - 2006.07.04 21:49:00 - [51] thier a lot of good ideas here not sure whats best but any way /signed Peronsal I would 4 launchers (as misslies get a lot of help form a target painter) and a bonus to heavy and assult launchers. It would be a big breacher not get all launcher slots like caldari but still puch above it weight due to the target painter and help the gang out as well.
Ysolde Xen	Posted - 2006.07.09 22:36:00 - [52] Devs on holiday perchance? ----- It's not a crap ship, you're just flying it all wrong.
Taria Tring	Posted - 2006.08.08 12:58:00 - [53] I'd like to see the TP bonus changed to a webber effectiveness bonus . Everything else I can live with.
Varis Jericho Fraction	Posted - 2006.08.08 13:14:00 - [54] ooh yes :) i actually like the look of the bellicose, and i also love it for drones + missiles. if the belli got a larger drone space (to allow for more med drones) and an extra missile bay, i would love it even more!!!!!
Ricky Baby Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.08 14:01:00 - [55] as far as a web effectiveness bonus would be nice - in the sceme of things it isn't that good - X5 webs already give an 80% speed reduction this couple with fast trackin cruiser guns willl give any frigate caught some problems. ---------------------- ABP Spy
Jet Collins	Posted - 2006.08.08 15:37:00 - [56] Edited by: Jet Collins on 08/08/2006 15:38:39 brought back to life one month later I see :). Well in that month I have had some new thoughts, and in addition to my previus post what some people are suggesting with the painter bonuse change to a webber bonuse is not a bad idea but I think the devs would live the leave that for the recon ships. So the other suggestion which I think is the best yet is change the projectile ship bonuse to a missles rof bonuse. This would make the TP and the missles work togeather a lot better, but I also want more Dones. Phoon get 5 large and 5 med, I think the Bellicose can have 5 med and 5 small *jets just wants this ship imporved for Logistic purposes.
Clavius XIV Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.08 15:38:00 - [57] On thing that really needs to be fixed is the sensor strength of the Bellicose. When it was converted from a sniper to an EW cruiser it didn't get the corresponding sensor strength upgrade it should enjoy. A vigil has more sensor strength! The Bellicose should have a sensor strength of 15 or 16.
Deren Thaldrel Minmatar Black Watch Legionnaires	Posted - 2006.08.08 16:26:00 - [58] All the grid/cpu balance posts are interesting but as for changing the bonuses Target painting is fine, but make the other bonus a 5% Missile ROF bonus instead of a projectile one. I think that would make it significantly more attractive :)
Leshrac Shepherd Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.09 16:34:00 - [59] Oops... Have I bumped the thread?
Tao Han Caldari Crucial Electronics	Posted - 2006.08.09 17:20:00 - [60] I always liked the idea of replacing the Target painter with the Webifier as the Minmatar racial EW. Like the Minnie Recon ships.

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