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Zhon	Posted - 2006.06.28 06:42:00 - [1] Edited by: Zhon on 28/06/2006 06:42:38 (All comments are in Af vs Af Combat) Just for the record I have all of the missiles skills to 5. Ok the new changes to the Hawk were a step in the right direction. I love the idea of a Missleboat AF. It has been a long time coming. However all the current changes have done is give the Hawk a diffrent weapon type to fire. The damage on the Hawk is horrible with missiles and only moderate with rockets. It doesnt even compete with the other AF's on DPS level. Its tanking abilty is definatly not the best and it is one of the slowest AF's out there. The Kinetic Damage bonus on the Hawk doesnt make any since to me. Missiles depend on ROF to do damage not Alpha strike. A 25% bonus will only net you an extra 25-50 damage per volley. You already have Standard launchers firing 4-5 times slower than weapons of the same ship class (I.E. Small guns). After AF resistances you are talking about that 25% bonus to damage being next to nothing and then you are stuck waiting another 9 sec to fire again while they hits you 3-4 times. Now on to the rockets. Rockets do more damage, but still are only moderate because of the high resistances of other AF's. Plain and simple Rockets have great ROF, but against AF resistances it is like throwing a rock at a brick wall. I have used tech 2 Standard launchers, Rocket launchers, and BCU 2's. I have played with Tech 2 ammo, but i shouldnt have to load tech 2 ammo to jsut break even with other AF's using t1 ammo. Bottum line is that the Hawk is still not balanced with the other AF's. It is definatly the slowest AF and even with a bonus dedicated to tanking still comes no where near a Retribution. ---------
Wilfan Ret'nub	Posted - 2006.06.28 06:49:00 - [2] Aren't you supposed to keep the enemy at >10km, web him when he comes in range, keep transversal if he's long range, spam light missiles and laugh as he can't hit you, while you can?
babylonstew	Posted - 2006.06.28 06:55:00 - [3] Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub Aren't you supposed to keep the enemy at >10km, web him when he comes in range, keep transversal if he's long range, spam light missiles and laugh as he can't hit you, while you can? sadly around 60 dps with kintetic light missiles before restances doesnt exactly light your fire does it Forum advice Linkage
Kyguard	Posted - 2006.06.28 07:07:00 - [4] The Hawk isn't that bad, but if you're gonna do the usual Caldarineedsotbeperfect routine, it's better if not equal to the Vengeance and how long have we had the vengeance around.. === God is on the side with the best arti
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.06.28 07:11:00 - [5] Well you still can chose dmg types to some degree, while other cannot. You can spam javelin rockets up to 30+ km, which is pretty close to 125mm rails with javelin ammo, however you have better dps and you hit at 0m with it, while javelin + rails fail at that miserably(and at anything under 25km). I think hawk is one of best AFs out there atm. --------- Boost caldari. It will reduce whining on forums due to the fact: 45% chars are mostly caldari specialized.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.28 07:16:00 - [6] ^^ good luck keeping that range
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.06.28 07:17:00 - [7] Hawk prices are dropping back to 15M. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.28 07:20:00 - [8] ^^ they flew up because it was announced it was going to have decent damage
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.28 07:23:00 - [9] ^^ they were announced with 2 damage bonuses. One got changed to range before implementation
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.06.28 07:23:00 - [10] ^^ they did on paper. In practice, they are junk. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.06.28 07:27:00 - [11] ^^ is not bonuses. It is how missiles work in delayed dmg not working suitably with Hawk bonuses. Should buff up Hawk's bonuses a bit but non-Hawk users will go waaaa waaa waaa. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Pinky Denmark	Posted - 2006.06.28 07:34:00 - [12] and even then we have people whining about the hawk was too nber... As said din many other threads it has some unique roles but it's not really an all out ASSAULT frigate... But since we have the harpy I think it's pretty much a descent build and a good balance for the caldari in the area...
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.06.28 07:42:00 - [13] Originally by: babylonstew Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub Aren't you supposed to keep the enemy at >10km, web him when he comes in range, keep transversal if he's long range, spam light missiles and laugh as he can't hit you, while you can? sadly around 60 dps with kintetic light missiles before restances doesnt exactly light your fire does it Well and std crow does 45dps and kill every inty out there, so what is your point exactly?:P Also hawk is better with rockets :) --------- Boost caldari. It will reduce whining on forums due to the fact: 45% chars are mostly caldari specialized.
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.06.28 07:52:00 - [14] So... it's worse than either of the Amarr ones? Meridius! Anyways, Rockets might be like throwing rocks on a brick wall when it comes to shooting at other AFs, problem is that's the case with all AF weapons. They just don't do too great damage. Oh, and Rockets have the range of long range turrets. Too bad I don't have Caldari Frigate level 5 so I can test them. My ego is in the way, though (I don't want to fly ugly ships, neither Caldari nor Minmatar...) New sig coming soonÖ By "soon" I do not necessarily mean "this year"
Woopie	Posted - 2006.06.28 08:00:00 - [15] Originally by: Zhon A 25% bonus will only net you an extra 25-50 damage per volley. You already have Standard launchers firing 4-5 times slower than weapons of the same ship class (I.E. Small guns). After AF resistances you are talking about that 25% bonus to damage being next to nothing and then you are stuck waiting another 9 sec to fire again while they hits you 3-4 times. 25% is always 25% to dps wether you've got low or high ROF... ..and I totally don't get that dramatic 25-50 number. With light missiles 25% is 751.251.14.25 = 103 extra voley damage...
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.06.28 08:06:00 - [16] Edited by: Ithildin on 28/06/2006 08:07:39 Ignore this post. New sig coming soonÖ By "soon" I do not necessarily mean "this year"
Kyguard	Posted - 2006.06.28 08:30:00 - [17] Originally by: Ithildin So... it's worse than either of the Amarr ones? Meridius! /emote casts "Summon: Meridius" === God is on the side with the best arti
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.06.28 08:32:00 - [18] Well, these guys are basically just like the Amarr whiners.. they honestly have no idea what they are talking about -> Ignore thread and hope the devs do too. Gronsak is Tux's angry alt.
DeadRow	Posted - 2006.06.28 08:34:00 - [19] I was very disappointed with the new hawk. Definitely still needs a little boost. CCP nerfed my sig: For the cool sig see here
Nikolai Nuvolari	Posted - 2006.06.28 08:37:00 - [20] Originally by: Kyguard Originally by: Ithildin So... it's worse than either of the Amarr ones? Meridius! /emote casts "Summon: Meridius" Arrrgh! Stop that, STOP THAT! His "troll sense" is probably tingling ALREADY! -------- Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk [04:21:15] Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw [07:38:53] Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Nikolai Nuvolari	Posted - 2006.06.28 08:42:00 - [21] Anyway, the kinetic damage bonus is COMPLETELY garbage...the excuse for cutting out the RoF bonus is "We can't put RoF bonuses on frigates, it causes too much lag". Fine, if that's your excuse, then use the damage bonus to give it an EQUIVALENT to the 5% RoF bonus: Just give it a 6.5% damage bonus to ALL MISSILES. -------- Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk [04:21:15] Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw [07:38:53] Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Boonaki	Posted - 2006.06.28 08:45:00 - [22] But a 100% of it's cap is dedicated to tank (kind of like the minny AF's) But the damage is still crap. Fear the Ibis of doom!
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.06.28 09:15:00 - [23] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Originally by: Kyguard Originally by: Ithildin So... it's worse than either of the Amarr ones? Meridius! /emote casts "Summon: Meridius" Arrrgh! Stop that, STOP THAT! His "troll sense" is probably tingling ALREADY! heh. well he must be happy. the bastard son that was the vengeance finally got the so much desired boost... enjoys the 6,5x dmg mod on his pulse vengeance ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Ortu Konsinni	Posted - 2006.06.28 09:28:00 - [24] I haven't thought about it much, but I think the problem is rather with standard missile launchers than with the Hawk. --- High quality pics of ALL EVE ships!
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.06.28 09:32:00 - [25] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Anyway, the kinetic damage bonus is COMPLETELY garbage...the excuse for cutting out the RoF bonus is "We can't put RoF bonuses on frigates, it causes too much lag". Fine, if that's your excuse, then use the damage bonus to give it an EQUIVALENT to the 5% RoF bonus: Just give it a 6.5% damage bonus to ALL MISSILES. Erm... Stop smoking. Since when did CCP ever give out bonuses on a basis of "it's mathematically similar to the other bonus that people want, only it looks ugly and we're ignoring all the other reasons for it" First of all, CCP always give 5% bonuses to damage effects, never more (unless it's classified as two bonuses). Second of all, you get Kinetic Missile bonus because otherwise Caldari wouldn't do anywhere near it's racially prefered damage. The one and only exception to this outside Caldari is Minmatar using EMP ammo - there are no other examples of a ship doing maximum damage from a non-racially prefered damage type (ignore Carriers, will you?). New sig coming soonÖ By "soon" I do not necessarily mean "this year"
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.28 09:36:00 - [26] Actually, the reason you don't see ROF bonuses on frigates is because it causes too much server lag. I still say the damage bonuses should be for all missiles, not just for Kinetic/EM/etc. TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.06.28 09:39:00 - [27] I'm so not going to reply to your post, i'd prefer to stay unbanned for a while longer. For the record, you're wrong.
Crellion	Posted - 2006.06.28 09:41:00 - [28] Originally by: Ortu Konsinni I haven't thought about it much, but I think the problem is rather with standard missile launchers than with the Hawk. Of course it is. Too much range and pitifull DPS. Bonuses should compensate that. If intended as standard launcher boat it needs dmg and rof bonus. If intended as rocket boat then bonuses are ok but I cant see how so slow a frig can ever be intended as a short range (especially since its Caldari and by design it cant tackle and tank). So pretty much I agree. Damage and rof on frig and assault like the Cerb is the only option.
Crellion	Posted - 2006.06.28 09:44:00 - [29] Edited by: Crellion on 28/06/2006 09:45:19 Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Anyway, the kinetic damage bonus is COMPLETELY garbage...the excuse for cutting out the RoF bonus is "We can't put RoF bonuses on frigates, it causes too much lag". Fine, if that's your excuse, then use the damage bonus to give it an EQUIVALENT to the 5% RoF bonus: Just give it a 6.5% damage bonus to ALL MISSILES. Erm... Stop smoking. Since when did CCP ever give out bonuses on a basis of "it's mathematically similar to the other bonus that people want, only it looks ugly and we're ignoring all the other reasons for it" First of all, CCP always give 5% bonuses to damage effects, never more (unless it's classified as two bonuses). Second of all, you get Kinetic Missile bonus because otherwise Caldari wouldn't do anywhere near it's racially prefered damage. The one and only exception to this outside Caldari is Minmatar using EMP ammo - there are no other examples of a ship doing maximum damage from a non-racially prefered damage type (ignore Carriers, will you?). Raven Dominix Ishtar Vexor and to a lesser extent Ishkur (more gun reliant). Edit: I forgot the new Phoon of course... same as Raven. Oh and the Arbitrator, oh and the Curse and Pilgrim... I think thats it now but not sure.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.28 09:50:00 - [30] Drones are balanced by their damage mod. Thermal have the highest damage mod (and as they are Gallente drones this makes sense). Kinetic/Caldari are next, followed by Explosive/Minmatar and finally EM/Amarr. TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -

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