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Freyda
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Posted - 2006.06.28 12:10:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Freyda on 28/06/2006 12:11:28
These ships are not very practical at the moment, It's not really the fault of the game mechanics either. It's because players are smart, and they know any ship strengthing the rest of the gang they're in it a prime target to go for.
But I'd like to see it changed. So I started this thread to just pool our ideas together to try and come up with solutions to make logistics and command ships viable ships to specialise in, in both pve and pvp.
Right I'll get the ball rolling with some ideas of my own.
Idea 1) Give command ships specialised command ship only modules that drastically increases the time it takes to lock on to them while drastically gimping their damage output? I imagine a tackler interceptor could probably still lock them and warp scramble them. But larger ships would take forever to lock them, so might be persuaded to choose another target first. A kind of 'defence mode' that just makes them very hard to lock onto and uses fuel of some kind so they don't over use it. I imagine a lot more fleet commanders would use command ships if they knew they would actually have at least a mediocre chance of surviving fleet combat. There's one idea.
Idea 2) Go overboard with the "cargo cruiser" description. Turn Logistics into a kind of hostile environment munitions haulers, with cargo capacities similar to that of the smallest tech one industrials. With some kind of bonus to cargo capacity if they carry only ammo (to supply to other ships), and also a greater ability to boost other ships. Perhaps with remote struture repairers that can only be fit logistic cruisers. A kind of cruiser that would be invaluable when locking down a system to keep the ships involved well maintained and well supplied with ammo, and crystals. All of that combined with the already in system bonus' to remote repair and shield transfer arrays would create the ultimate well... logistics support.
They'd still die just as fast in fleet combat, but you wouldn't use them in such a way. They'd be able to fix up a fleet that can't realistically get to a base fix up.
That's the only ideas I can come up with..
You guys got any ideas? It seems like a good plan to pool some thoughts together for the devs to consider all in one place, rather than some scattered rants across various threads about logistics and command ships.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.06.28 12:18:00 -
[2]
ôIt's because players are smart, and they know any ship strengthing the rest of the gang they're in it a prime target to go for.ö
So what if your prime? You should have the toughest tank in your group tougher then any HAC. So your going to last longer then if any one else in the group is called prime. What every happens someone gets called prime so you may as well make sure itÆs the toughest ship you have.
I donÆt do fleet battles but for smaller battles command ships rock.
Passive shield tanking guide, click here. |
Nadec Ascand
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Posted - 2006.06.28 12:21:00 -
[3]
love the idea of module decreasing the logistic sign radius dratiscaly.
I would love to see thoose module like 5000 CPU wich a bonus in logistic ship for thoose (like coveert ops cloak and covert ops ship 96 - 100% to this cpu modul)
Would make this ship viable in pvp.
More cargo would help to cary ammo (gimme 1k at least cargo)
So even if primary the time to lock me would be long enough for me to help other instead of poping evytime i come in fleet or gang, and i will be able to come in helping ppl in lvl 4 more easilly (i already do but its pain to warp in out evrytime somehting come in)
Also pls give the caldari some drone lets say 20m3 or 15 wich allow me toget some small drones and defend myself a bit...
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Freyda
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Posted - 2006.06.28 12:27:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Freyda on 28/06/2006 12:28:00
 Originally by: Pottsey
ôIt's because players are smart, and they know any ship strengthing the rest of the gang they're in it a prime target to go for.ö
So what if your prime? You should have the toughest tank in your group tougher then any HAC. So your going to last longer then if any one else in the group is called prime. What every happens someone gets called prime so you may as well make sure itÆs the toughest ship you have.
I donÆt do fleet battles but for smaller battles command ships rock.
Doesn't matter what ship you're in, if you get called primary and locked be the enemy, then you're dead. The best way to survive fleet combat isn't to tank it, it's to not get locked. Either through luck or quick reaction times when you notice the enemy locking you and warping.
But yeah, of course in smaller scale combat you can try and out tank the damage. Loads of ships not just command ships and HACs can manage that.
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Iratus Caelestis
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Posted - 2006.06.28 12:30:00 -
[5]
I can see your point on logistics ships but have you actually flown in or against a command ship as you seem a bit confused as to what they are capable of.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with their survivability, if you fit them for it their tanks are absolutely monsterous.
If you had a dedicated defence mode on top of that then you seriously imbalance them, it would mean I get to be indestructible for as long as I need to be and then I can come out of my defence mode and back to having far higher damage than any HAC. As a CS pilot it sounds awesome but perhaps a little unfair to everyone else :)
Imho the only real problems I see with command ships are that there is no skill to reduce the cap need of gang modules, their agility is far too low and like every other ship in the game they have no way to negate NOS.
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Nadec Ascand
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Posted - 2006.06.28 12:36:00 -
[6]
well i did not post anything bout CS coz i think they do good atm (they really nasty in small gang encounter ... can tell ya...)
But for ppl who did ansew can u look at the logistic issue ...
Thoose ship have really no use atm but staying in safe and waiting for ship to be repaired...
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Freyda
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Posted - 2006.06.28 12:39:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Freyda on 28/06/2006 12:40:50
Originally by: Iratus Caelestis
I can see your point on logistics ships but have you actually flown in or against a command ship as you seem a bit confused as to what they are capable of.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with their survivability, if you fit them for it their tanks are absolutely monsterous.
Well I haven't flown one, but I have flown against them, and they're always called as target first in group combat.. as a fleet commander it's pretty damn unhelpful if you're knocked out of the fight so early on because unless you hang around the battle scene in a pod, you can't realistically continue giving commands. It's normally better to just either be in a battleship which seems to survive longer in my experience, or if you really want to give gang bonus' to your gang mates, just fly a tech one BC which is a helluva a lot cheaper to lose in pvp.
Anyways, even if you don't agree with my Command ship opinions.. supply more ideas for logistics cruisers people.. ideas make the gods of CCP happy.
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Turiya Flesharrower
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Posted - 2006.06.28 12:45:00 -
[8]
Frankly, I don't believe Command Ships are supposed to be in the front lines of any battle so in terms of their intended use this is a bit of a non-issue. Typically they should be flown by FCs or someone in a command position within a gang and hang back from a battle at long range in order to observe and direct without endangering their ships and gang bonuses. Just because they have heavy weapons doesn't mean they should be in the thick of the fighting; an Officer carries a gun but you don't see him in the trenches with everyone else.
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2006.06.28 13:11:00 -
[9]
A properly setup Damnation has quite possibly got the best armour tank in the game.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori |
FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2006.06.28 13:18:00 -
[10]
I'd be interested to see Vulture setups.
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Hayabusa Fury
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Posted - 2006.06.28 13:19:00 -
[11]
You can not make a ship that can survive much longer than they do now. It would just muck up balance.
Tatics should be used better for FC's that want to live longer. Most FC's are generally avid PvPers and can't help but jump into the fight. They need to remember what ship they are in.
If you want a logistic ship to act as a mobile station they are called carriers and motherships. I know that does not fix the logistic ship but tatics should be the same. BC's are front line ships, Command/logistic BC's are not if you are fitting gang modules.
Tatics I do not see in Eve:
Sending in certain groups of ships first. Waves as it were. It tends to be all or nothing when gang jumping. Blobing tends to be the only way to win at the moment.
Using specialty ships for thier intended roles. Pretty much tank and DPS is all that matters.
Fielding enough support ships. Usually gangs have one Command ship. Redundancy in this area would cut down on prime kills ruining a fleets chances of winning.
All of these seem to point to game mechanics and so proposed changes to ships will not be effective until better gameplay is introduced. Blobbing needs to die, it is not fun. Battles need to take longer, so tactics and adjustments can be implemented. Command/logistic ships would work great if not for blobbing.
There is over 1 billion people in China.
So, if you are 1 in a million, there is 1000 guys just like you! |
Garia666
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Posted - 2006.06.28 13:22:00 -
[12]
There is not much wrong with teh logistics the only thing wrong about them is that armor repairing is the suckz0r
if they would lessen the cap to use them more people would fly them
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Iratus Caelestis
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Posted - 2006.06.28 14:21:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Iratus Caelestis on 28/06/2006 14:22:32
Originally by: Freyda
Edited by: Freyda on 28/06/2006 12:28:00
Originally by: Pottsey
ôIt's because players are smart, and they know any ship strengthing the rest of the gang they're in it a prime target to go for.ö
So what if your prime? You should have the toughest tank in your group tougher then any HAC. So your going to last longer then if any one else in the group is called prime. What every happens someone gets called prime so you may as well make sure itÆs the toughest ship you have.
I donÆt do fleet battles but for smaller battles command ships rock.
Doesn't matter what ship you're in, if you get called primary and locked be the enemy, then you're dead. The best way to survive fleet combat isn't to tank it, it's to not get locked. Either through luck or quick reaction times when you notice the enemy locking you and warping.
But yeah, of course in smaller scale combat you can try and out tank the damage. Loads of ships not just command ships and HACs can manage that.
So the problem is with the overpowered implementation of focussed fire within the game and not actually with the configuration of the ships. CCP need to (and indeed are) addressing that core problem.
In the mean time you might call it as primary but the opposing gang is doing exactly the same as you and with just a little ECM you can protect a gang mate surprisingly well and in the mean time he's dealing out wtfpwn damage or providing 25% increases in combat effectiveness to his gang mates.
Command ships are balanced fine in that respect, their only problems are the ones I stated earlier.
Oh and the ship bonus is too low, I'm armour specialised but there's no point in me flying the inferior Amarr Command ships as I lose more than I gain from the armoured warfare bonus.
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Angus McLein
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Posted - 2006.06.28 14:32:00 -
[14]
I seriously think it would be awesome if you could get the command ships paintjobs to look just like a proph's. That way people will find you unimportant.
Actually that was stupid I just realized they'd lock you because they know you have no tank lol...oops.
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Synapse Archae
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Posted - 2006.06.28 14:34:00 -
[15]
Quote:
drastically gimping their damage output?
You mean like only having 4 weapon slots?
The damage is already gimped on these ships. Doesnt need to be gimped more.
On the plus side they do fit a very nice tank. I mean I havent see 50 ships firing at me, but its a very nice tank.
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http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=349194&page=1Redo Fleets[/ur |
Elrich Zann
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Posted - 2006.06.28 15:45:00 -
[16]
I would like to see a Battleship-sized command ship, this would give you the ability to tank damage in smaller groups. For fleet engagements, I don't think any ship can stand being primary for long.
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.06.28 16:41:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 28/06/2006 16:42:24
Here is another idea for you,
make it possible to mimic other ships.
a kind of device, which, upon activation, makes the ship look like entirely different ship class. This effect only works for anyone farther than certain distance to the ship. So basically the enemy will have to guess which enemy megat is actually the logistic, which won't happen instantly, but still there is a chance. Also, some kind of recon ops would become handy, like a covert ops getting closer to an enemy fleet in order to reveal logistics.
This is the only reasonable way to draw fire from the logistic ships, without making them overpowered tanks or invulnerable (like safespotting gang boosters currently).
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Cruz
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Posted - 2006.06.28 16:47:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 28/06/2006 16:42:24
Here is another idea for you,
make it possible to mimic other ships.
a kind of device, which, upon activation, makes the ship look like entirely different ship class. This effect only works for anyone farther than certain distance to the ship. So basically the enemy will have to guess which enemy megat is actually the logistic, which won't happen instantly, but still there is a chance. Also, some kind of recon ops would become handy, like a covert ops getting closer to an enemy fleet in order to reveal logistics.
This is the only reasonable way to draw fire from the logistic ships, without making them overpowered tanks or invulnerable (like safespotting gang boosters currently).
OMG is that a battleship orbitting me at 500m@2000m/s?? and wtfpwning my frigate??
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For the glory of the empire! |
Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.06.28 16:53:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 28/06/2006 16:56:17
Originally by: Cruz
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 28/06/2006 16:42:24
(skipped)
This effect only works for anyone farther than certain distance to the ship.
(skipped)
OMG is that a battleship orbitting me at 500m@2000m/s?? and wtfpwning my frigate??
this won't be possible, as according to my suggestion, at 500m the mimic effect most probably won't apply to you, so you'll see the real ship type. I think the reasonable minimum distance for this to work is about 30km. So anyone farther than 30km will se the illusion, anyone closer than that will see an actual ship type.
Maybe also make this device only work on logistic ships, to avoid such confusion...
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Decairn
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Posted - 2006.06.28 17:21:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Decairn on 28/06/2006 17:22:33
I see logistics ships as being impractical for most PVP, and for PVE it has a niche on complex running with a gang. No idea how to make it worthy of use in PVP.
(Fleet) Command ships are practicle given the signficant advantages they give to a whole gang for the addition of one person. The negatives of these ships are 1) gang modules don't work in warp which is a huge PITA as you're always warping out as primary target call 2) BC agility is terrible 3) negligible offensive capability with gang mods loaded (tbh people shouldnt expect damage from these ships whe so fitted)
--Decairn
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korrey
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Posted - 2006.06.28 17:31:00 -
[21]
Yeah whats with this? Theres second class ships for all classes except Battleships. Theres Hacs (Cruiser), theres Assault Ships (Frigates) and theres Command Ships (Battlecruisers). Now there should be another class based on Flagships. (Hey thats a pretty good name for the class too.) So we'de have the nice Flaships that wtfpwned other battleships.
That would be something to train for.
And it should have a good damage output with a great tank. And more resistance than you can shake a stick at.
Or maybe im just dreaming.
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2006.06.28 19:17:00 -
[22]
I like it. Perhaps if CCP addresses focus fire with an exponential locking quotient. So the more a ship is locked, the slower subsequent locks on that ship become.
A Command ship can just start with a higher quotient. That means its just as fast to be locked by a single ship, but the 2nd lock is slower based on the quotient. The third even slower. subsequent lock time on command ships would just degrade faster.
And there is always Skirmish Warfare Evasive Maneuvers 
I'm going to post that in ideas forum. Has it been posted yet?
____
"If your not dyin' your not tryin'."
"Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
inSpirAcy
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Posted - 2006.06.28 19:22:00 -
[23]
Originally by: korrey
And it should have a good damage output with a great tank. And more resistance than you can shake a stick at.
Why do you think there aren't plans for these, yet? 
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Freyda
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Posted - 2006.06.29 11:39:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Freyda on 29/06/2006 11:39:55
Originally by: korrey
Yeah whats with this? Theres second class ships for all classes except Battleships. Theres Hacs (Cruiser), theres Assault Ships (Frigates) and theres Command Ships (Battlecruisers). Now there should be another class based on Flagships. (Hey thats a pretty good name for the class too.) So we'de have the nice Flaships that wtfpwned other battleships.
That would be something to train for.
And it should have a good damage output with a great tank. And more resistance than you can shake a stick at.
Or maybe im just dreaming.
They're already in the works, the facility to build tech 2 Battleships at POS's can already be seen on the market. Look for Advanced Large Ship Assembly Arrays.
I am not sure if you can actually buy them yet, but they have already been added in preperation for when tech 2 battleships eventually arrive. My guess is though, that that will not happen until after Kali, when there are three tech one battleship varients to have tech 2 versions of.
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bandetpa
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Posted - 2006.10.20 10:34:00 -
[25]
Hi,
i read that command ships are not that great in pvp not sure as i've not tried yet(would like some comments on that) if the command ship is logistics in fleet battles why not be able to ss the command ship and use the gang mods to boost members of the fleet?.
There should be some sort of restriction on how many commandships in a gang/fleet can be used doing this maybe a rang penalty like i said i have not tried in pvp with a nighthawk as thats what i have atm, but what i here is its only good for mission's, be sad if thats the case! i was thinking of a nighthawk v cerberus or nighthawk v any hac and would it be more cost effective to use the nighthawk due to silly priced cerberus ? Again i'm just trying to find out what real use the command ship has in pvp atm.
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JustBlaze
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Posted - 2006.10.20 10:57:00 -
[26]
my oneiros has a cap recharge rate of 120 seconds and 2700 cap, meaning i can keep a medium and small repairer running 100% and if my target gets too bad i slap on the large repairer and cap boost.
True these ships are weak in defence but thats why they get 40+ km range.
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Le Cardinal
ECP Rogues
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.20 12:41:00 -
[27]
As for answering their usage. Field COmmand ships are good in skirmish warfare. They have heavy firepower and heavy tank. Align slow, but that will improve with next patch. Fleet command ships are best used in larger gangs/fleets. They can give a significant boost with command modules.
Vulture has an absolutely insane tank. And its a very good sniper too. Outguns and outclass an eagle easily.
Well easier way of saying it: CS pwn in smaller gangs. 
ECP.R killboard |
Denrace
Amarr
Psykotic Dreams
Barracudas.
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Posted - 2006.10.20 12:41:00 -
[28]
Trust me guys, if you have 3x gang mods running - you will have virtually NO cap left to actually tank with.
Besides, a Medium Armour Rep II (or even two of them) isnt enough to keep a command ship alive for very long. XL sheild boosters are fine, but eat into your cap and 350m3 cargo space is too small for enough cap charges.
Let alone put any single NOS into the equation, then they just die.
Lets see INSANE tanking abilities on Fleet Command Ships, but remove any turret/launcher hardpoints too.
They tank pretty well currently, but a Damnation still goes down like a sack of crap against even a single blasterthron, let alone versus a hostile gang.
Oh, and NOBODY wants to play EVE sat gang boosting in a Safespot.
Another quick point: THE 3% WARFARE LINK BONUS IS COMPLETELY NEGLIBLE!!!! Come on CCP, for heavens sake - fix these ships!
Den
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Wild Rho
Amarr
Black Omega Security
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Posted - 2006.10.20 13:10:00 -
[29]
I'd be curious if a chameleon module is possible.
How it could work...
When docked the player can fit the module as normal.
Once the module is fitted to the ship they can right click on the module and select a ship type to assign to the module.
Once the type has been selected the player can now use the module in space.
When the module is activated the ship will look like the type that was selected while docked.
The ship will still behave as it normally would and still have it's normal properties, only the "ship model" would appear different.
The advantage of this model is it allows ships to hide in plain sight during a battle and provides them a chance to carry out their roles without being immediatly singled out.
It also provides an oppertunity for a group to play mind games on hostile scouts by providing false visuals on their fleet composition (of course the scanner isn't fooled, but using it to gain ID is more about the player ability to use the tools provided).
Now seeing a battleship zipping about like a cruiser is going to be a bit of an obvious give away so it comes down to the pilot to choose a suitable type to disguise itself as.
The oppertunities to expand this module are signifcant as well with rare/named types also allowing players to disguise themselves as asteroids, debris etc.
Limitations of the module could include fitting requirements or penalties to an aspect of the ship (such as targetting delays) creating a trade off between increased chances of surviving Vs being less efficient at operating.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
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Ir Pwnag0r
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Posted - 2006.10.20 13:14:00 -
[30]
Doesnt that mean command ships will be the best ships to run away in? :S
Goes thru 0.0 with no lock 
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