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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
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kieron
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Posted - 2006.07.04 17:10:00 -
[1]
QA doesn't get much love. If there is the slightest hiccup with a patch, they get blamed. If the smallest bug sneaks through the extensive test process, they take heat. If a bug doesn't get fixed in a patch, they are the root of all evil.
Mephysto may not have any cool pics to show off like Redundancy, or get the chance to talk about nifty features coming into EVE like Oveur, but what he blogs about is no less important.
If you hate bugs and want to do your bit to help, Mephysto's Bugreports is a good place to start. Call it a primer on the proper way to submit a report. This will make QA's job easier and help reduce the number of bugs in EVE.
There's also news of the new e-mail notification system and feedback from the team. One more way CCP is trying to improve the EVE play experience.
kieron
Community Manager,
EVE Online |
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Caldorous
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Posted - 2006.07.04 17:12:00 -
[2]
nice!, i'll post a pair of bugs of the test server
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.07.04 17:17:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: kieron
[...] If there is the slightest hiccup with a patch, [...].
Maybe there'd be less flak if they'd not dump the bugreports people write on test stuff?
--*=*=*--
Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment. |
Sgt Blade
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Posted - 2006.07.04 17:20:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Sgt Blade on 04/07/2006 17:22:02
ooo
yarr we hate bugs 
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Jongo Fett
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Posted - 2006.07.04 17:24:00 -
[5]
4th!
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Tobias Raddick
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Posted - 2006.07.04 17:34:00 -
[6]
Thanks for giving us a format for our bug reports.
More blogs please!
Maybe one on how the China players are doing?
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.07.04 17:40:00 -
[7]
Nice blog, and I hope it helps some people. On the other hand, I have a bit of a problem with this:
Originally by: kieron
QA doesn't get much love. If there is the slightest hiccup with a patch, they get blamed. If the smallest bug sneaks through the extensive test process, they take heat. If a bug doesn't get fixed in a patch, they are the root of all evil.
QA is generally not described as the root of all evil or whatever when the smallest bug sneaks through. They generally get lambasted for the big things that come through (think Concord Holiday, or Cloak+Cyno)
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.07.04 17:59:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 04/07/2006 18:03:50
Originally by: Mephysto
Title: Crash to desktop
Description: Game crashed to desktop.
Reproduction Steps: Happens all the time.
Best bugreport ever! 
No, seriously, you should add some more information as to why its very, very important to include steps to reproduce it. Alot of people not used to computers have no idea what a coder needs to be able to find the bug. You think its obvious to think in steps if you are a programmer, but for the normal player out there, they simply dont know how to do it. Its not that they are stupid - they just dont think like that.
Maybe if you included some short, easy to understand examples of how to describe the steps, right there above the bug report form. Make it so a child can understand it, and make it short so even people with short attention span will read it.
At least it might help a little.
Edit: Also that link to Valars bugreporting steps are really bad. Its just too much information for some people to process. They look at all that text and think "naaaah". It would be much better to have just a few basic points how to provide a basic bugreport, and also give them the option to provide an "advanced" bugreport using logserver etc.
You have to make it alot easier to submit good bug reports.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Helison
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Posted - 2006.07.04 19:10:00 -
[9]
The e-mail notification systems looks like a big step into the correct destination. But I fear that it still would not allow to really track the status of the bugreports. But I wait first for the real implementation and hope for the best.
An open point from the last blog is still the "known issues" page. The current page is still for 3910 and I would still prefer an automated system (linked with the real defects-system).
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.07.04 20:22:00 -
[10]
The number one thing you really need to get across to people is that* a bug report is useless if it does not explain how to make the bug happen again. If a developer does not know how to make a bug happen, how are they supposed to know when they've fixed it?
*For the most part and in the majority of situations; in actual fact less informative bug reports can still be helpful but this is the gold standard.
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Caldari Cylon
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Posted - 2006.07.04 23:04:00 -
[11]
Did all that in my bug reports along with pingplotter files and dxdrag and the logserver, still no reply in over a week.
Is madding when you can't play for more then 40mins tops before it just dumps to desktop. (sometimes it's less then 5mins)
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Wrangler
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Posted - 2006.07.04 23:10:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Caldari Cylon
Did all that in my bug reports along with pingplotter files and dxdrag and the logserver, still no reply in over a week.
Bug reports are not replied to yet, as Mephysto writes in his Blog there is a system coming where you will recieve a reply with information on how useful your bug report was and what will happen to it. 
Wrangler
Assistant Community Manager
EVE Online
Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads
Knowledge Base - Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions |
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Caldari Cylon
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Posted - 2006.07.04 23:28:00 -
[13]
Ok..don't mind me..just ****ed about not been able to play for two months ;)
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Daiashi
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Posted - 2006.07.04 23:42:00 -
[14]
Huge props for the suggested improvements, but a small plea from the edge of space!
Please, please follow the format in the blog where a response is given once the bugrep has been received and read and for Quafe's sake don't go for the auto-reply most e-ticket systems use.
I would match that with an equal appeal to anyone posting a report to follow the advice in the blog and bugrep sticky, but for the lazy:
What exactly were you doing before it happened?
What exactly did you do to make it happen?
and, if you really want to help CCP develop a fix, read the instructions at: Bugreport Sticky to help you present a sane and hepful report.
Perhaps the customer service team could add a little 'feedback to customer' box to the email tool, eg
Bugrep rating 1-5
Tick boxes to auto-insert an comment for the most common failings
Please add . . . . to your report
Report igonred due to lack of . . .
As for points per report, this (IMHO) would only result in massive amounts of poor reports in the hope of winning 'stuff'. Maybe those players who put real effort into the existing testing program (Singularity, IRC etc.) *could* get rewards to Tranquility
________________________________________________
The most daring pilot in the Galaxy ~ I FLY NUDE |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.07.05 09:26:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 05/07/2006 09:30:21
Originally by: Daiashi
As for points per report, this (IMHO) would only result in massive amounts of poor reports in the hope of winning 'stuff'. Maybe those players who put real effort into the existing testing program (Singularity, IRC etc.) *could* get rewards to Tranquility
I agree, that would not be a good system. What i had in mind was more like rewarding the very few excellent bug reports that lead to the removal of the bug. Combine this with a up-to-date bug tracking system where everybody can see the status of a bug (not including exploitable bugs of course).
You log on to the test server, you see a list of known bugs. You can participate in trying to find steps that always work to reproduce it. Once you do, you fill out a detailed bug report. You will then get credit for putting all that work in if the report leads to a solution. Why is this not a good idea?
I gave these suggestions back in 2003 as well by the way. But since nothing happens on this front, i guess ccp have good reasons for not doing something about it. Maybe cost exceeds advantages. So the game will still have lots of bugs in the future... but its ok, i can live with that.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Scorpyn
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Posted - 2006.07.05 10:42:00 -
[16]
Originally by: kieron
If a bug doesn't get fixed in a patch, they are the root of all evil.
There has been more than 1 patch where the overview bugs have not been fixed. There has been more than 1 known problems list where the overview bugs haven't even made it to the list. The only mentioning of the problems have been a "we're aware of it and we're working on it" post, a long time ago.
When a gamebreaking issue that was introduced with the first exodus patch is still not fixed, that is when you should realize that there is indeed a problem.
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Kage Getsu
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Posted - 2006.07.05 17:14:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Kage Getsu on 05/07/2006 17:16:24
Originally by: kieron
QA doesn't get much love. If there is the slightest hiccup with a patch, they get blamed. If the smallest bug sneaks through the extensive test process, they take heat. If a bug doesn't get fixed in a patch, they are the root of all evil.
You make it sound like the only bugs that escape QA are tiny.
Edit: I'm still waiting on the crescent moon corp logo option to be fixed. It mysteriously turned black with Cold War and I've filed several bug reports to it. I know it's tiny, but that also means it probably isn't a hard fix.
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Lokimon
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Posted - 2006.07.05 17:52:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Mephysto
I have been asked a few times to give real examples of good and bad bugreports. After searching for a whole 30 seconds, I found multiple examples of each... Here is an example of an unusable bugreport we received:
* Title: Crash to desktop
Description: Game crashed to desktop.
Reproduction Steps: Happens all the time.
So your client crashed. For this to be any use to us, we would need the following:
- an exact description of exactly what you were doing at the time, eg undocking, jumping, shooting npc's, whatever
- a copy of the dxdiag report for the computer this occured on
- and any .dmp file created by the crash.
If it happens all the time, a logserver file would also be useful. You can submit multiple files on a bug report by either zip'ing or rar'ing the files. There is a limit of 2mb on file uploads though, so if you are including screenshots, convert them to jpg or png. As it is, this bugreport has been closed due to lack of information.
It is true that the above report offers very little to help the devs reproduce the frequent crashes. However, simply closing out the report due to lack of information is half-assed at best.
At a minimum, the complaint should be tallied and categorized with other bug reports to give the devs an idea of the frequency of various complaints. In addition to the bugs where an idiot can follow the steps to reproduce, you should be giving adequate attention to the most frequently reported problems whether they are well documented or not.
Secondly, we are talking email here. How much more effort would it be to return a form letter to the person reporting the bug asking for additional information? You should include instructions on where to find the dump file, how to get the dxdiag report, how to run the log server and instructions for packaging the files in RAR or ZIP format. You only have to create the form letter once. You want the user to explain exactly how to reproduce a problem, but you aren't giving them the details they need to know how to report the problem.
If the email address for the person reporting the bug is invalid or they don't return the requesting information within a week or two, then close out the report.
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Caine
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Posted - 2006.07.06 00:01:00 -
[19]
Details are nice, but if you don't have any then not much more to say... look at the bad example of a bug report.
What more is there to say (not my report but I have the same issue)... Game crashes all the damn time, at any given moment, random and without warning or being able to reproduce it. All the information needed should be in the logserver report that should always be sent with the bug report.
I know, sucks to be me. But the general level of bugs/crashes in this software is plain horrible (for more users than it should) so I can undertsand people getting annoyed.
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Pardack
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Posted - 2006.07.06 00:18:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Pardack on 06/07/2006 00:19:37
Originally by: Caine
Details are nice, but if you don't have any then not much more to say... look at the bad example of a bug report.
What more is there to say (not my report but I have the same issue)... Game crashes all the damn time, at any given moment, random and without warning or being able to reproduce it. All the information needed should be in the logserver report that should always be sent with the bug report.
I know, sucks to be me. But the general level of bugs/crashes in this software is plain horrible (for more users than it should) so I can undertsand people getting annoyed.
I can understand having EVE crash on you is annoying. Used to happen to me all the time. After upgrading AND downgrading some drivers (Graphics, Chipset, Sound etc), I found the right balance to make EVE stable. After a recent MB/CPU upgrade, I haven't had problems since.
I usually found that even though it seemed random, certain things would ALWAYS cause problems. If you can reliably report even one instance it may help.
I've read a lot of times in help/forums that it has been an overheating/overclocking CPU/GPU problem. Which may or may not be in your case. Try disabling sound, turning your graphics settings down and if your CPU/GPU is overclocked, return to factory defaults and give it a go.
EVE has been running rock-solid on my end for a long while now, so while it may be an EVE problem, I'd check your system first.
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.07.06 10:02:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Lokimon
In addition to the bugs where an idiot can follow the steps to reproduce, you should be giving adequate attention to the most frequently reported problems whether they are well documented or not.
If you don't have a sufficient level of information on the bug (like, how to make it happen at least once) you cannot fix it. If you tell me Eve keeps crashing your machine but it never crashes mine, what am I supposed to do to work out what's causing it?
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Matthew
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Posted - 2006.07.06 11:29:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Pardack
I've read a lot of times in help/forums that it has been an overheating/overclocking CPU/GPU problem. Which may or may not be in your case.
This is something a lot of people seem to underestimate. The eve client is capable if really caning your CPU and GPU, in a way that many other supposedly higher-spec games never do. This is especially true on your GPU in certain situations (used to be in-station with Vsync off, not sure if that still happens). This means the Eve client often exposes inaqeuate/broken cooling more than any other game.
The only crashing problems I've had with Eve turned out to be my RAM going bad. Of all the programs I ran, Eve was the most sensitive to the RAM problem - other things would crash, but no-where near as often, and windows itself almost never had a problem. In my particular case, the faulty patch of ram was fairly high up in my memoryspace, so it only came into use when my memory usage went very high (hence why windows could still boot properly on a machine where the RAM failed memtest in under 5 seconds!).
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There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Hawk Firestorm
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Posted - 2006.07.07 06:54:00 -
[23]
Biggest problem relating to client instability is related to alt tabbing in full screen mode.
Something that simply doesn't happen in windowed mode.
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Tommy TenKreds
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Posted - 2006.07.09 11:50:00 -
[24]
So pleased to read that you're introducing bug reporting response emails. Good going guys. 
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