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Capitals in high sec and new groups in null

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Director Blackflame Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2014.07.24 00:03:00 - [1] - Quote Recent discussion about how hard it is for new groups to get into null got me thinking. The idea would be to allow carriers and dreads to use stargates to travel through high sec and allow dread and carrier production in high sec from a new less efficient array. This would create a place for new groups to build caps without getting dropped by supers 23/7 and would promote more war decs in high sec. Possible problems are the price of decing large groups and the possibility that high sec would be a staging area for all null operations though I would think the tedium of jumping dreads gate to gate would stop that from being a realistic option. Any opinions?
Rowells Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans 1054	Posted - 2014.07.24 00:13:00 - [2] - Quote All I will say is it's been argued back and forth before and it causes more problems than it solves.
Bohneik Itohn Universal Freelance CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS 608	Posted - 2014.07.24 00:38:00 - [3] - Quote Maybe if there was a way to package them up so that they couldn't be handled, flown or transported through gates in high, but could be sent through WH's in bulk... Actually I just like the idea of a WH suddenly spewing out a 100 capitals somewhere deep in null, and a frantic rush to get as many mobile depots up and have them fitted before the AFKer in the POS wakes up long enough to ping a fleet. Vote for equal blobbing rights for high sec! Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!-á - Freyya Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 8114	Posted - 2014.07.24 00:46:00 - [4] - Quote So, rather than just nerfing capitals so they aren't an "I win" button, we should just proliferate them to everybody, and flood the game with them. You're nuts. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Clean Up Local 2014.-á
Director Blackflame Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2014.07.24 00:55:00 - [5] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: So, rather than just nerfing capitals so they aren't an "I win" button, we should just proliferate them to everybody, and flood the game with them. You're nuts. This has more to do with the availability of that power not at what level that power should be. My idea has nothing to do with the power of capitals themselves but the difference between what a fledgling entity can field vs what an established one can. This change could very well happen alongside a capital nerf.
Arthur Aihaken Erebus Solia 3732	Posted - 2014.07.24 02:16:00 - [6] - Quote Capitals in high-sec would be neatGÇª that is until null-sec absolutely flooded high-sec with them. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Bohneik Itohn Universal Freelance CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS 610	Posted - 2014.07.24 02:34:00 - [7] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: So, rather than just nerfing capitals so they aren't an "I win" button, we should just proliferate them to everybody, and flood the game with them. You're nuts. Can we still get blobs of capitals spewed out of wormholes at random intervals, in random places? I mean, is there really any reason to stop this from happening? It'd be something interesting... Null sec could use more than 1 interesting event a year... Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!-á - Freyya Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 5765	Posted - 2014.07.24 02:55:00 - [8] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Capitals in high-sec would be neatGÇª that is until null-sec absolutely flooded high-sec with them. Pretty much this. If you think remote repping games are "fun" wait until you face a Triage-fit carrier that can remote rep ~3,600 hp/sec (with 3x capital remote reps) to ~5,600 hp/sec (4x capital remote reps, overloaded)... combined with a local tank somewhere between ~12,600 hp/sec and 16,300 hp/sec. Pantheon/Slowcat setups will also be pretty bad for small corps to deal with as 15 carriers can each remote rep 900 dps (w/ 3x capital remote reppers)... meaning an opponent would have to dish ~12,000 dps per carrier to break through the reps alone and then chew through ~1.3+ million effective hitpoints... while surviving the DPS coming from the carrier's drones (which, at around ~600 dps x 15 carriers = 9,000 total dps). These stats are all without implants or warfare links by the way. They quickly get absurd when you factor them in. Also imagine how hard people will scream when large groups begin the"dred-bomb" POCOs and POSs in high-sec with nigh impunity. In a way... if would basically be a twisted version of what us "small groups" have to deal with every day in low-sec; we can't put up any major assets (POCOs or POSs) in valuable places or commit to a large battle for more than 10-20 minutes without expecting a larger force to move in and crush everything and everyone... even though we largely have access to the same "toys." Your idea OP would only widen the gap between poor and small players/organizations versus wealthy and large players/organizations. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. "How did you veterans start?"
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 8118	Posted - 2014.07.24 03:24:00 - [9] - Quote Bohneik Itohn wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: So, rather than just nerfing capitals so they aren't an "I win" button, we should just proliferate them to everybody, and flood the game with them. You're nuts. Can we still get blobs of capitals spewed out of wormholes at random intervals, in random places? I mean, is there really any reason to stop this from happening? It'd be something interesting... Null sec could use more than 1 interesting event a year... Within reason, certain ships could be given a tool to collapse and respawn wormholes. Or perhaps a deployable. Either way it would need to have a really high barrier to entry so as not to transform the game into "Wormholes R Us!". "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Clean Up Local 2014.-á
Director Blackflame Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2014.07.24 03:28:00 - [10] - Quote ShahFluffers it seems like a lot of those concerns stem from caps cynoing in which wouldnt be possible just allowing them to use gates. Smaller organizations could form deeper into highsec to limit the response time of larger entities. I could see them taking pocos and pos' around trade hubs but that is done now anyway. Now if youre saying capital reps are so strong that you need supers to deal with them that is a problem capital reps themselves not with where theyre located or who theyre owned by.
Sentamon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 1982	Posted - 2014.07.24 04:52:00 - [11] - Quote People will build caps in highsec and then join the big blocks because for the most part its always the side with the most people that wins. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
Sato Page Ministry of War Amarr Empire 134	Posted - 2014.07.24 05:39:00 - [12] - Quote Yes, +1 from me. In fact I believe removing cyno and force all capitals to use star gates will solve many game design problems. 1, It will be much harder to en mass a large number of capitals in short order due to the lack of insta travel. 2, You could pre-deploy all your capitals in your capital staging system, so capitals will be more of a defensive weapon. 3, People said carrier in HiSec is OP and unfair to new players, how about 10 man T3 gang with logi? They are just as OPed to smaller player groups. While I agree triage is a bit OP and encourages station game now cyno is removed, so I guess triage should only be avalible in low/null/wh. 4. Yes, insta travel is the cancer of EvE, it need to be removed. 5, Yes, Capital skills is a huge time sink, give HiSec players access to capitals will give them something to train for after they've leveled up to their golem. yay for more profit! 6, Did I said capitals? yes I meant normal capitals, supers should be removed from game entirely. Bad game design is bad. Flame at will! Dinsdale Pirannha for CEO of CCP
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 8124	Posted - 2014.07.24 05:52:00 - [13] - Quote Sato Page wrote: Yes, +1 from me. In fact I believe removing cyno and force all capitals to use star gates will solve many game design problems. This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. This would turn capital ships into a defensive only weapon, since you never know you could get them to anywhere on time. Which of course means that no one loses systems with capitals in them since you can't attack with capitals to counter the defender since yours can't move. Honestly, did you think before you typed that out? Quote: 3, People said carrier in HiSec is OP and unfair to new players, how about 10 man T3 gang with logi? They are just as OPed to smaller player groups. While I agree triage is a bit OP and encourages station game now cyno is removed, so I guess triage should only be avalible in low/null/wh. That's 10+ people, not just one. You're making a great case for banning NPC alts like you from the forums. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Clean Up Local 2014.-á
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 5765	Posted - 2014.07.24 06:06:00 - [14] - Quote Director Blackflame wrote: ShahFluffers it seems like a lot of those concerns stem from caps cynoing in which wouldnt be possible just allowing them to use gates. Smaller organizations could form deeper into highsec to limit the response time of larger entities. I could see them taking pocos and pos' around trade hubs but that is done now anyway. Now if youre saying capital reps are so strong that you need supers to deal with them that is a problem capital reps themselves not with where theyre located or who theyre owned by. The issue with capitals in high-sec cannot be boiled down to any one particular aspect of them (though the RRing part is the most glaringly obvious and why I tend to highlight it)... it is the whole package. Capitals have natively high EHP (easily topping ~1.3+ million), very high potential local tank (with or without capital reps), very high remote repping power (with or without capital RRs), logistical abilities that would make most haulers blush (the carrier in particular can haul small fleets of ships around like a freighter), and high DPS (a dozen dreds can make POCO and POS smashing absurdly easy). Part of what makes capitals somewhat balanced in low and null-sec is the fact that anyone can engage them freely... war-dec or not. With the security of high-sec's CONCORD and the ease of being able to shed unwanted war-decs that threat is gone... allowing people to use their capitals wherever and however they wish without fear of being stomped on... unless the person you are stomping happens to have more capitals than you. And to answer your counter directly... no. Cynoing and warp speed don't matter when your targets are stationary and/or lack the ability to move as efficiently as you can... especially if you can summon greater numbers of people. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. "How did you veterans start?"
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 460	Posted - 2014.07.24 11:28:00 - [15] - Quote Director Blackflame wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: So, rather than just nerfing capitals so they aren't an "I win" button, we should just proliferate them to everybody, and flood the game with them. You're nuts. This has more to do with the availability of that power not at what level that power should be. My idea has nothing to do with the power of capitals themselves but the difference between what a fledgling entity can field vs what an established one can. This change could very well happen alongside a capital nerf. There is already a decent supply of reasonable priced caps on markets already. If a fledgling crew cannot have pilots pay for them now....they will have issues out of empire. They are failing at step 1 and 2. Can pilots keep up pvp costs? No. Can corp/alliance offset costs? No. Welcome to out of empire, it takes isk. Even for the crews who opt to work out NPC 0.0. This has killed crews big and small. A line from an old song comes to mind. No money, no honey. No cash no ass..... Secondly you are assuming this will be cheap caps. I remember a pre PI eve. As PI was coming there was the talk of yeeees, player controlled markets for some mats, cheap gear for all. If I dig up my old indy spreadsheets I can see this was a strange definition of cheap. I saw some of my mats shoot up several hundreds of % in price. Call me jaded by I just don't see empire cap builders discounting price too much from a nice low sec stationed cap. Oooh,, they will cut out fuel costs of jf hops. Maybe....
Dally Lama Republic University Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2014.07.24 11:38:00 - [16] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Sato Page wrote: Yes, +1 from me. In fact I believe removing cyno and force all capitals to use star gates will solve many game design problems. This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. This would turn capital ships into a defensive only weapon, since you never know you could get them to anywhere on time. Which of course means that no one loses systems with capitals in them since you can't attack with capitals to counter the defender since yours can't move. Honestly, did you think before you typed that out? Quote: 3, People said carrier in HiSec is OP and unfair to new players, how about 10 man T3 gang with logi? They are just as OPed to smaller player groups. While I agree triage is a bit OP and encourages station game now cyno is removed, so I guess triage should only be avalible in low/null/wh. That's 10+ people, not just one. You're making a great case for banning NPC alts like you from the forums. To be fair I make that case all day everyday already, so it's a moot point. I'll also use this as an opportunity to inform you that I have recently created a petition against you. My petition claims you have broken forum rules several dozen times, specifically rules 2, 4 and 22. https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Forum_rules Each time you continue to break a rule, I add it as a message to the petition. If you don't think they will eventually ban you, keep it up. Give me the evidence I need and dig your own grave. Don't think I'm kidding either. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4605189#post4605189 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4302158#post4302158 A fraction of the examples I have provided thus far. New Fitting Window \| Distances above 10km \| Maximums for buy orders
Count Vladimir Dracula The Crimson Elixir 2	Posted - 2014.07.24 12:01:00 - [17] - Quote Build them in a low sec npc station like everyone else. It is 100% safe.
Fer'isam K'ahn None Of One 234	Posted - 2014.07.24 13:07:00 - [18] - Quote Not sure how flying a bigger schlong will help High Sec, more wardecs (more?) or the tranistion to Low Zero. Basically it's up the players interest, not the size of the ship .. so I have heard. But maybe I am playing the game wrong ?! Creates more problems then solv... wait, doesn't solve any. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?!
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 460	Posted - 2014.07.24 14:18:00 - [19] - Quote Fer'isam K'ahn wrote: Not sure how flying a bigger schlong will help High Sec, more wardecs (more?) or the tranistion to Low Zero. Basically it's up the players interest, not the size of the ship .. so I have heard. But maybe I am playing the game wrong ?! Creates more problems then solv... wait, doesn't solve any. its a made up selling point. If they wanted caps that bad, they'd be in the "blob" already. Or in wh. Which provides ample pve and pvp time in caps if so inclined. Which is what I think one the root of this. They have the common sense to at least not go I want a cap to spam lv 4 ( without gates) and incursions lol. As they know they will get the domi says hi line lol. Or they' d be in an NPC 0.0 resident corp/alliance. Many of whom skip over this whole matter. No blob cap sov warfare imba to whine about. They roam in smaller ships. And many seem to enjoy it greatly while doing it. I have had friends in RK who loved it. Many side chats in private channels they were going on about fun roams as I lingered pressing f1 on a pos. Take away I get from these rants is players just being narrow minded as to what life out of empire like say in 0.0 should should be really. Always have the skirmish option I say if , insert obligatory goons, not your cup of tea. First step is to actually leave empire and see what works for you. Which is very doable if as one poster said they are maxing out their marauder. BS 5 right there and I can assume good weapons skills. Already meeting many fleet requirements right there alone. I have been in the blob. To me its just a name people throw around. Been a goon pet and even in IT so I got around. Could care less if in blob a or blob b or skirmish crew C. Do I get to shoot stuff with time to rat and buy stuff sometimes? Yes? Well all i need...I left caod to caod and much happier for it imo. Or if they want to fly a cap so bad...train it in empire and run on sisi. I am stuck in empire atm. trained caps. Nothing else to train...why the hell not. Will I use one day....maybe. When rl not so busy I will at least fire up sisi and play with them on there till a hopeful return to 0.0.
Director Blackflame Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2014.07.24 19:50:00 - [20] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: - I share your concerns about the ease of getting out of war dec and easier logistics though I can provide no elegant solution short of nuking npc corps from orbit and locking players in corp during war decs maybe with the option to drop corp within first 24hr. As for the need of anyone being able to aggress caps suspect timers could be added to triage and dreads in high sec or any aggressive action in a cap if it needed to be taken a step further. Zan Shiro wrote: - The point isnt to make captial production in high sec profitable its to make it an option for players without getting steamrolled. Secondly "Join the blob" is the type of behavior the idea is attempting to discourage. If people want to join the blob thats fine but there should be an at least semi reasonable path for those who want to "challenge the blob". Personally for my corp I decided wh space was just the better option for "claiming" territory even though we cant directly hold sov. Swarms of proteii are far more reasonable than blobs of caps imo. To fight uphill so to speak you either need to be armed with at least the same weapons as your opponents and use better tactics, use aoe weapons (but do we really want to implement more bomber like things), or need a dedicated anti capital ship subcap. This is just discussing one of those options but there could possibly be more than just these if we commit to identifying the cause of player behavior. I'm personally of the "challenge the blob" type and I find it hard to believe most of the players are the "join the blob" type. It just seems like the most reasonable course of action is join the blob unless you want to get stomped out.
Rowells Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans 1061	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:52:00 - [21] - Quote You do realize that once you allow capitals in highsec. "The blob" will start using them there too? So this advantage of having some place the "blob" won't go is not true. If you give any one player something, you give it to everyone.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 460	Posted - 2014.07.25 00:39:00 - [22] - Quote Director Blackflame wrote: ShahFluffers wrote: - I share your concerns about the ease of getting out of war dec and easier logistics though I can provide no elegant solution short of nuking npc corps from orbit and locking players in corp during war decs maybe with the option to drop corp within first 24hr. As for the need of anyone being able to aggress caps suspect timers could be added to triage and dreads in high sec or any aggressive action in a cap if it needed to be taken a step further. Zan Shiro wrote: - The point isnt to make captial production in high sec profitable its to make it an option for players without getting steamrolled. Secondly "Join the blob" is the type of behavior the idea is attempting to discourage. If people want to join the blob thats fine but there should be an at least semi reasonable path for those who want to "challenge the blob". Personally for my corp I decided wh space was just the better option for "claiming" territory even though we cant directly hold sov. Swarms of proteii are far more reasonable than blobs of caps imo. To fight uphill so to speak you either need to be armed with at least the same weapons as your opponents and use better tactics, use aoe weapons (but do we really want to implement more bomber like things), or need a dedicated anti capital ship subcap. This is just discussing one of those options but there could possibly be more than just these if we commit to identifying the cause of player behavior. I'm personally of the "challenge the blob" type and I find it hard to believe most of the players are the "join the blob" type. It just seems like the most reasonable course of action is join the blob unless you want to get stomped out. And you do know you have to learn how to use the tools as they are used in 0.0 to "fight the blob". With this idea...you aren't getting that. SInce cyno's have been ruled out it seems and its jumping gates you are missing that aspect of cap warfare. Very vital one in fact. FC or grunt...you have to face that hot drop from hell a few times to lose the shock value at least. I have seen victory taken from the jaws of defeat. Only because FC and fleet did not go "game over man, game over" when the assault hot drop came in. Kept our heads straight, stuck to a plan and a few times good things happened eventually. This takes many ops to learn and master. At some point, man,you see 6 titans drop and go oh good...6 chances to be on a titan km, lets make it happen hopefully. Put another way....you have to learn to deal with the hot drop games if you intend to beat them at it. Only way you are getting this knowledge is to be in the blob to learn the ropes. How to hot drop, how to counter hot drop, how to counter counter hot drop....that is part of 0.0. Cheap caps ain't making this easier. Assuming you get them (like said above I think you are overly optimistic here in them being cheaper). You all want to do that you need to suffer some time in the blob and learn how they do it. Trust me on this...I have learned lots about how to fly (and not fly caps) not even being in them in many months of being support for them in bc's then BS's. Day comes I fly my first combat cap op...I have a long list of do not do's learned by watching I know to avoid, or hope to anyway. And the funny thing is this list grew over months and months. Even a year later into working for the blob...I saw some wtf, that is a new mistake made by cap pilots and FC's I have never seen before. Well that and as mentioned the blob will bring the caps to empire. Somehow I just see mittens expanding on burn jita just a bit at least once to hit a few bear pos' in known heavy bear pos systems.
Fourteen Maken VipeRs Pit 136	Posted - 2014.07.25 01:40:00 - [23] - Quote The OP made a suggestion in good faith, the problem is the gap between hi sec corps and null sec is enormous... the capabillities of null sec players are leagues ahead of anything new players can do which effectively puts most of the game out of our reach. It crossed my mind too but then I realized it won't change anything just make things worse because like everyone above said if you can move capitals out of high sec you can move them into hi sec as well. not only that but there wouldn't be too many corps in high that could muster the resources to build even a single super cap, null alliances would melt it in seconds so where is the motivation for the guy who built it to stay with his alliance and risk his most valuable asset when he could just go to one of the null corps and swell their ranks instead. Nah it won't work but I must admit it crossed my mind, but there is just no way to bridge the gap between Hi sec and null so people will remain stuck in high sec for years unless they stoop to slumming in null.

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